Power supply fried, replaced it, computer won't start

[Rod Speed]

Not against equipment damage, no. Or else this one
would not have sparked and let out smoke and would
have continued to run after the short was removed.

Here, I'll rephrase it, because this is what I meant in the first place:

Some cheap power supplies don't have adequate
protection against damage from shorts.

There. Done.

Nothing like your original.

No, but a couple of blowed cheap power supplies does.

Nope, not with your original stupid claim.

Ok, then I rephrase it. See above.

Nothing like your original. If you had said what you
are now saying, I wouldnt have even commented.

A couple cheap blown power supplies later....

Still says nothing useful what so ever about the stupid claim
that some cheap power supplys not having ANY protection
against equipment damage. There aint a single one that is
that bad, even tho there are certainly some that cant handle
a shorted rail, and others that cant protect against equipment
damage when the power supply itself fails.

The spikes are within tolerance.

There is no such animal.

Does a power supply always get constant stable power?
No, it does not. Does it always give constant stable power?
No, it does not. Voltage always fluctuates, and so therefore,
the protection circuitry has to be designed so that it does not
trip under these conditions provided that they are within tolerance.

And there has to be protection against mains spikes, otherwise
no power supply thats used on the mains will last very long.

But what does this have to do with a short circuit killing a power
supply, or tripping protection circuitry? Absolutely nothing.

Yep, it was just another stupid claim you made.

Ok, then I'll re-reword it. SOME cheap power supplies don't
have adequate protection against damage from shorts.

DONE!

If you'd actually said that, no one would have commented on that.

Ok, so now you're saying is OK for ALL power supplies to run WITHOUT
a load - and yet, some won't even power up without a load. Why is that?

Basically because its cheaper to design it
so that it needs some load to start properly.

Well I don't know about you, but if a speaker
isn't working, I tend to notice it right away

Depends on whether you're even there to notice it.

and correct the problem long before
it has any chance to do any damage.

You may not notice that one channel
has died if you arent relatively close to it.

Then you're not using tube amps. Ok then.

You never restricted your original claim to tube amps.

And those care least about no speakers anyway.

And in better designs, the amp is shut down so that the amp is now NOT
running without a proper load, which is the exact opposite of your claim
that you've been running your amps on high power with no speaker attached.

No its not. It just means that the protection was effective, stupid.

You just said the amp had protection circuitry. Had this been
working properly, the amp would have gotten shut down anyway.

There is more than one way protection against that can be done.

It doesnt necessarily involve shutting down the amp.

How is this running an amp without a load?

Keep desperately digging, you'll be out in china any day now.

 

[David Matthew Wood]

Not against equipment damage, no. Or else this one

Nothing like your original.

In my original, I said cheap power supplies don't have protection. If
you had followed the thread which is what I had been doing, "protection
against damaged from shorts" would have been assumed, as it is all in
context.

Nope, not with your original stupid claim.

Equipment damage should have been assumed.

Still says nothing useful what so ever about the stupid claim
that some cheap power supplys not having ANY protection
against equipment damage. There aint a single one that is
that bad, even tho there are certainly some that cant handle
a shorted rail, and others that cant protect against equipment
damage when the power supply itself fails.

Blown power supply due to short: equipment damage.

Something connected to supply that is destroyed by supply: equipment
damage.

If this protection isn't good enough to prevent damage, then I don't
really consider it protection. Case in point, power supply that smoked
when it was shorted.

Either way, the statement you just now made is contradictory to itself.

There is no such animal.

You must have some reallllyyyyy cleeeaaaaaaaannnnn power then. The rest
of the world isn't so lucky.

And there has to be protection against mains spikes, otherwise
no power supply thats used on the mains will last very long.

Yes, that is why we have voltage regulators. Again though, this has
nothing to do with the output of the supply being shorted.

Yep, it was just another stupid claim you made.

No, you're the one who brought up voltage spikes to begin with, when
that again has nothing to do with outputs being shorted.

If you'd actually said that, no one would have commented on that.

Again, in context with the thread, it should have been assumed.

Basically because its cheaper to design it
so that it needs some load to start properly.

How is it cheaper to add circuitry that senses whether or not there is a
load during start up?

You may not notice that one channel
has died if you arent relatively close to it.

I notice it quite easily when my entire sound stage shifts, thank you.

You never restricted your original claim to tube amps.

You never restricted your claim to solid state amps either.

And those care least about no speakers anyway.

Again, very bad for the output transformers. But hey since you continue
to say you know better than the very people who designed the amps in the
first place, I don't really know what else to tell you.

No its not. It just means that the protection was effective, stupid.

Effective protection shutting an amp down under this condition is not
exactly you running an amp without a load, now is it?

There is more than one way protection against that can be done.

It doesnt necessarily involve shutting down the amp.

No, but it still involves shutting down components of an amp that can be
damaged by running with no load, which isn't what I call RUNNING an amp
without a load!

 

[Rod Speed]

Easy to claim now.

In my original, I said cheap power supplies don't have protection.

You actually said they dont have ANY protection.

If you had followed the thread which is what I had been doing, "protection
against
damaged from shorts" would have been assumed, as it is all in context.

Its just plain wrong even with just shorted outputs,
and those clearly wont the only thing being discussed
because you went on to stupidly claim that they dont
have any protection against running unloaded either.

Equipment damage should have been assumed.

Only when you dont have a clue about the basics. You qualify.

Blown power supply due to short: equipment damage.

Irrelevant to your original stupid claim that some
cheap supplys dont have ANY protection at all.

Something connected to supply that is
destroyed by supply: equipment damage.

Irrelevant to your original stupid claim that some
cheap supplys dont have ANY protection at all.

If this protection isn't good enough to prevent
damage, then I don't really consider it protection.

Pity about when its protecting against some other situation.

Case in point, power supply that smoked when it was shorted.

Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it didnt have ANY protection.

Either way, the statement you just now made is contradictory to itself.

Lying now.

You must have some reallllyyyyy cleeeaaaaaaaannnnn power then.

Nope, I'm just saying that there is no TOLERANCE to be within.

The rest of the world isn't so lucky.

Pathetic, really.

Yes, that is why we have voltage regulators. Again though, this
has nothing to do with the output of the supply being shorted.

Has everything to do with your original stupid claim that
some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.

Yep.

you're the one who brought up voltage spikes to begin with,
when that again has nothing to do with outputs being shorted.

Pity you never restricted your original stupid claim to shorted outputs.

Again, in context with the thread, it should have been assumed.

Nope, not when you went on to make equally stupid claims about
them not having any protection against running unloaded either.

How is it cheaper to add circuitry that senses
whether or not there is a load during start up?

Never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

I notice it quite easily when my entire sound stage shifts, thank you.

You may not notice that if you arent even in that room at the time.

You never restricted your claim to solid state amps either.

I never made any claim about amps, YOU did.

Again, very bad for the output transformers.

Wrong, as always.

But hey since you continue to say you know better than
the very people who designed the amps in the first place,

Lying, again.

I don't really know what else to tell you.

Yep, you clearly havent got a clue about the basics, you're DONE.

Effective protection shutting an amp down under this condition
is not exactly you running an amp without a load, now is it?

Pity you only tried to run that line after your nose was rubbed
in the terminal stupidity of your original claim about amps.

No, but it still involves shutting down components of
an amp that can be damaged by running with no load,
which isn't what I call RUNNING an amp without a load!

Pity you only tried to run that line after your nose was rubbed
in the terminal stupidity of your original claim about amps.

 

[David Matthew Wood]

In my original, I said cheap power supplies don't have protection.

You actually said they dont have ANY protection.[/QUOTE]

Protection against equipment damage, no. That is what the thread was
about.

Its just plain wrong even with just shorted outputs,
and those clearly wont the only thing being discussed
because you went on to stupidly claim that they dont
have any protection against running unloaded either.

Because you said you were running it unloaded. Now if you're running it
unloaded and protection kicks in on it, that's not exactly continuing to
run it unloaded, now is it?

Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it didnt have ANY protection.

Protection against damage, no it obviously did not. That is what the
thread was about.

Lying now.

Why did you remove the statement this was about?

Nope, I'm just saying that there is no TOLERANCE to be within.

So you're basically saying that the voltage you get from a household a/c
outlet is a CONSTANT 120, and NEVER fluctuates at all?

Has everything to do with your original stupid claim that
some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.

Protection against shorts. Again, context of the thread.

Pity you never restricted your original stupid claim to shorted outputs.

The thread was talking about shorted outputs. Take it in context.

Nope, not when you went on to make equally stupid claims about
them not having any protection against running unloaded either.

You said you were continuing to run it unloaded. But you can't continue
to run it unloaded if protection kicks.

Never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

Ok then, I have two power supplies, both with hard wired power switches.
One of them will fire up without a load when I flip the switch. The
other one will not. Why is the latter cheaper?

You may not notice that if you arent even in that room at the time.

I'm in the room when I turned it on, and that's when I would notice it.

I never made any claim about amps, YOU did.



Wrong, as always.

So why do all amp manufacturers say to never run without a load?

Lying, again.

How so? The very people who design them say it's not good to run them
without a load. You on the other hand are saying otherwise.

Pity you only tried to run that line after your nose was rubbed
in the terminal stupidity of your original claim about amps.

Amp is switched on and run at high power with no load.

Protection stops this from happening.

How is this CONTINUING to run said amp without a load, which is what you
said you were doing?

 

[Rod Speed]

Protection against equipment damage, no.

Still just plain wrong. They ALL have SOME
protection against equipment damage.

That is what the thread was about.

Because you said you were running it unloaded.

Lying, again. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
before I ever said anything about what I was doing.

Now if you're running it unloaded and protection kicks in on it,

It doesnt with PC power supplys, it either fails to
start because some wont start without a load, or
it runs fine unloaded if its happy to start unloaded.

that's not exactly continuing to run it unloaded, now is it?

Irrelevant to what was being discussed.

Protection against damage, no it obviously did not.

It just didnt have protection AGAINST A SHORTED RAIL.

Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it has OTHER protection.

That is what the thread was about.

Lying, again.

Why did you remove the statement this was about?

I didnt remove a thing, you pathological liar. YOU are
the only one that has deleted anything from these posts.

So you're basically saying that the voltage you get from a household
a/c outlet is a CONSTANT 120, and NEVER fluctuates at all?

Nope, THAT THERE IS NO TOLERANCE SPECIFIED WITH SPIKES.

Protection against shorts. Again, context of the thread.

Again, pity YOU also raved on mindlessly about unloaded
too IN YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD.

The thread was talking about shorted outputs. Take it in context.

Pity you spewed your drivel about unloaded in your first post in this thread.

You said you were continuing to run it unloaded.

Only AFTER you made that stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded.

But you can't continue to run it unloaded if protection kicks.

There isnt any protection that kicks in with an unloaded pc power supply.
Its either happy to start unloaded or it doesnt start at all unloaded.

Ok then, I have two power supplies, both with hard wired power
switches. One of them will fire up without a load when I flip the
switch. The other one will not. Why is the latter cheaper?

Because it costs more to design a power supply so it will start unloaded.

I'm in the room when I turned it on, and that's when I would notice it.

And if it becomes unloaded after you've turned it on,
you may not be in the room when it becomes unloaded.

So why do all amp manufacturers say to never run without a load?

They dont.

How so? The very people who design them
say it's not good to run them without a load.

Plenty dont.

You on the other hand are saying otherwise.

Lying, again. I JUST said that it doesnt necessarily kill
the amp, most obviously when its properly designed.

Amp is switched on and run at high power with no load.

Protection stops this from happening.

How is this CONTINUING to run said amp without
a load, which is what you said you were doing?

I didnt say that I did it like that, liar.

 

[Neal Eckhardt]

Take everyone off the main board except video card if an add on and power
it up. If not then the mobo may be phucked.

Why not take out the video card too. It can certainly cause this
problem. The MB will still power up without a video card, it just
beeps at you (a good thing in this case).

Neal

 

[David Matthew Wood]

Still just plain wrong. They ALL have SOME
protection against equipment damage.

Ok fine. But some isn't always good enough, in which case I don't
consider the equipment protected.

Lying, again. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
before I ever said anything about what I was doing.

Lying that you said you were running it unloaded?

let's look back a bit:

Me: since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

You: Oh bullshit.

me: really? Why don't you try it then.

You: Done that plenty of times thanks."

hmm..

It doesnt with PC power supplys, it either fails to
start because some wont start without a load, or
it runs fine unloaded if its happy to start unloaded.

If it runs unloaded, it's not running fine at all. Quite unstable
actually.

Irrelevant to what was being discussed.

Not if it is shut off in order to not run unloaded.

It just didnt have protection AGAINST A SHORTED RAIL.

And therefore didn't have equipment protection against a shorted rail.
Yes. Well, I also consider this protection against equipment damage as
well - in this case, the supply itself.

Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it has OTHER protection.

Took out the mobo when this happened, actually. Not my idea of
protection.

Lying, again.

OP said it didn't power up because a cable was not connected correctly.

I didnt remove a thing, you pathological liar. YOU are
the only one that has deleted anything from these posts.

Oh crap.. lol my mistake! I took out your comment along with others in
order to keep the message short. Didn't mean to do that. Oops! ^_^

Nope, THAT THERE IS NO TOLERANCE SPECIFIED WITH SPIKES.

If the power supply handles it fine (which they all do to a degree),
then it has tolerance. It has to, since household current is not always
stable. Storms, big motors kicking on and off, etc.
Again, voltage regulation.

Again, pity YOU also raved on mindlessly about unloaded
too IN YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD.

I have one running in this computer that will not stay on if there is
nothing connected to the 5v good power line.

Pity you spewed your drivel about unloaded in your first post in this thread.

PG, yes. I have such a beast running in this machine.

Only AFTER you made that stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded.

Doesn't matter. Obviously there is some protection against running it
unloaded - in which case I don't consider that actually running unloaded
at all.

There isnt any protection that kicks in with an unloaded pc power supply.
Its either happy to start unloaded or it doesnt start at all unloaded.

If it doesn't start unloaded, then that's protection against running
non-stable, due to it being unloaded.

Because it costs more to design a power supply so it will start unloaded.



And if it becomes unloaded after you've turned it on,
you may not be in the room when it becomes unloaded.

Which never happens in my house.

They dont.

Plenty of them do - even for tube amps.

Plenty dont.

More of them do.

Lying, again. I JUST said that it doesnt necessarily kill
the amp, most obviously when its properly designed.

Properly designed as in protection against this condition. Again, not
the same as running without a load.

I didnt say that I did it like that, liar.

You said yours ran without a load and that continuing to run without one
(if a speaker becomes disconnected) wouldn't hurt it.

 

[Rod Speed]

Ok fine. But some isn't always good enough,

Again, nothing like your original.

in which case I don't consider the equipment protected.

Again, nothing like your original.

Lying that you said you were running it unloaded?

Lying about the BECAUSE. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
about running the power supply unloaded BEFORE I ever said a thing.

let's look back a bit:

Me: since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

You: Oh bullshit.

me: really? Why don't you try it then.

You: Done that plenty of times thanks."

hmm..

Humming aint gunna save your bacon, you clearly made that
stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded BEFORE
I said anything, so you are clearly lying with your BECAUSE.

If it runs unloaded, it's not running fine at all.

Wrong, as always.

Quite unstable actually.

Wrong, as always.

Not if it is shut off in order to not run unloaded.

Pity that if it does shut down ITS CLEARLY PROTECTED AGAINST
RUNNING THAT WAY, and if it doesnt shut down IT CANT DAMAGE
ANYTHING BECAUSE NOTHING IS CONNECTED TO IS.

And therefore didn't have equipment protection against a shorted rail.
Yes. Well, I also consider this protection against equipment damage
as well - in this case, the supply itself.

Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

ALL THAT SHOWS IS THAT THOSE DONT HAVE
PROTECTION AGAINST A SHORTED OUTPUT.

Took out the mobo when this happened, actually. Not my idea of protection.

Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

ALL THAT SHOWS IS THAT THOSE DONT HAVE
PROTECTION AGAINST A SHORTED OUTPUT.

OP said it didn't power up because a cable was not connected correctly.

Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

No evidence that the OPs power supply damaged anything.

Oh crap.. lol my mistake! I took out your comment along with others
in order to keep the message short. Didn't mean to do that. Oops!
^_^

A Jap would at least have the decency to disembowel itself |-)

If the power supply handles it fine (which they
all do to a degree), then it has tolerance.

Thats not what 'within tolerance' means.

It has to, since household current is not always stable. Storms,
big motors kicking on and off, etc. Again, voltage regulation.

THERE IS NO TOLERANCE TO BE WITHIN.

I have one running in this computer that will not stay on
if there is nothing connected to the 5v good power line.

No surprises there, its more common than power supplys that will start up
fine unloaded. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER TO DESIGN THEM LIKE THAT.

Doesnt say anything useful ABOUT ANYTHING GETTING DAMAGED
IN THAT CONFIG. THE SUPPLY JUST FAILS TO START.

PG, yes. I have such a beast running in this machine.

No surprises there, its more common than power supplys that will start up
fine unloaded. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER TO DESIGN THEM LIKE THAT.

Doesnt say anything useful ABOUT ANYTHING GETTING DAMAGED
IN THAT CONFIG. THE SUPPLY JUST FAILS TO START.

Doesn't matter.

Corse it does.

Obviously there is some protection against running it unloaded

Nope, it just doesnt start that way.

- in which case I don't consider that actually running unloaded at all.

There is no PROTECTION, it just doesnt start unloaded.

If it doesn't start unloaded, then that's protection
against running non-stable, due to it being unloaded.

Wrong, as always. There is no protection, it just doesnt start
unloaded because of how its designed, the design needs a load
to start because thats the cheapest way to design a switcher.

IT COST MORE TO DESIGN THE POWER SUPPLY TO START UNLOADED.

Which never happens in my house.

You and your house are completely and utterly irrelevant.

Plenty of them do - even for tube amps.

Wrong, as always. And you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed ALL.

More of them do.

You stupidly pig ignorantly claimed ALL.

Properly designed as in protection against this condition.
Again, not the same as running without a load.

Plenty of amps run fine without a load and without protection cutting in.

You said yours ran without a load and that continuing to run
without one (if a speaker becomes disconnected) wouldn't hurt it.

Yep, and I proved that the amp didnt give a damn when that happened.

 

[David Matthew Wood]

Again, nothing like your original.
And?


Again, nothing like your original.

I said this a couple of times actually.

Lying about the BECAUSE. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
about running the power supply unloaded BEFORE I ever said a thing.
Nope.







Humming aint gunna save your bacon, you clearly made that
stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded BEFORE
I said anything, so you are clearly lying with your BECAUSE.
Nope.



Wrong, as always.
Nope.


Wrong, as always.

So now you're saying that power supplies are perfectly stable under NO
load......

nope.

Pity that if it does shut down ITS CLEARLY PROTECTED AGAINST
RUNNING THAT WAY, and if it doesnt shut down IT CANT DAMAGE
ANYTHING BECAUSE NOTHING IS CONNECTED TO IS.

How would it damage something that isn't connected to it? Where did
that come from?

Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

ALL THAT SHOWS IS THAT THOSE DONT HAVE
PROTECTION AGAINST A SHORTED OUTPUT.

uh huh - and the better ones do.

Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

ALL THAT SHOWS IS THAT THOSE DONT HAVE
PROTECTION AGAINST A SHORTED OUTPUT.

uh huh - and again, the better ones do.

Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

No evidence that the OPs power supply damaged anything.

I never said the OP's power supply did damage anything! His old PS died
so he replaced it. The new one didn't power up - he had something
connection wrong. He fixed the connection and then his machine booted
up fine. Where did I say otherwise?

A Jap would at least have the decency to disembowel itself |-)

Wow... at first I thought you just liked to troll in these groups to
argue and I wasn't going to stoop to your level, but damn.... you really
are an ass!

Thats not what 'within tolerance' means.


THERE IS NO TOLERANCE TO BE WITHIN.

It has to be designed to tolerate normal and unavoidable voltage
fluctuations. If the fluctuations are within a certain, threshold they
are within tolerance. If input voltage is outside this threshold, the
PS will shut down. If the input voltage remains within this threshold,
it is within tolerance. An AC supply is not perfectly 100% stable so
therefore, a PS has to be designed to tolerate this to a point.

No surprises there, its more common than power supplys that will start up
fine unloaded. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER TO DESIGN THEM LIKE THAT.

Doesnt say anything useful ABOUT ANYTHING GETTING DAMAGED
IN THAT CONFIG. THE SUPPLY JUST FAILS TO START.

You said in an earlier post that ALL power supplies start up fine and
stay running without the 5v Power Good line being connected. Yet, I
have one in this machine that does not stay powered if the 5v Power Good
line is not connected.

No surprises there, its more common than power supplys that will start up
fine unloaded. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER TO DESIGN THEM LIKE THAT.

Doesnt say anything useful ABOUT ANYTHING GETTING DAMAGED
IN THAT CONFIG. THE SUPPLY JUST FAILS TO START.

Again....
You said in an earlier post that ALL power supplies start up fine and
stay running without the 5v Power Good line being connected. Yet, I
have one in this machine that does not stay powered if the 5v Power Good
line is not connected.

Corse it does.


Nope, it just doesnt start that way.


There is no PROTECTION, it just doesnt start unloaded.



Wrong, as always. There is no protection, it just doesnt start
unloaded because of how its designed, the design needs a load
to start because thats the cheapest way to design a switcher.

IT COST MORE TO DESIGN THE POWER SUPPLY TO START UNLOADED.

Even when power is switched on an off by a hard wired switch?
Even some AT supplies won't stay on without a load. The one I have that
will not stay on unless I at least have a hard drive or two connected to
it is an AT supply. Again, how is this cheaper?

You and your house are completely and utterly irrelevant.



Wrong, as always. And you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed ALL.

And now you're saying none of them say this, which is wrong.

You stupidly pig ignorantly claimed ALL.

You give me that same line even when I say some.

Plenty of amps run fine without a load and without protection cutting in.

Just as plenty of them don't.

Yep, and I proved that the amp didnt give a damn when that happened.

As I can (and have in the past) proved that a lot of amps do give a damn
if this happens.

 

[Rod Speed]

And?

So you are fooling absolutely no one with your desperate backpeddling.

I said this a couple of times actually.

Not in your original you never did.

If you had said what you are saying now in your
original, I wouldnt have commented on your original.

I commented on your original because you mangled the story utterly.

And you are still mangling the story completely
with power supplys starting unloaded.

Yep.
http://groups.google.com/group/24hoursupport.helpdesk/msg/13f72b7e160b75fa



Yep.
http://groups.google.com/group/24hoursupport.helpdesk/msg/13f72b7e160b75fa

Nope.

Yep, some power supplys will run fine unloaded.

So now you're saying that power supplies
are perfectly stable under NO load......

Yep, some handle that fine.

nope.

Fraid so.

How would it damage something that isn't connected to it?
Precisely.

Where did that come from?

Your stupid claim that it shuts down to protect anything when its unloaded.

uh huh - and the better ones do.

No one ever said they didnt.

uh huh - and again, the better ones do.

No one ever said they didnt.

I never said the OP's power supply did damage anything!

I never ever said you did.

His old PS died so he replaced it. The new one didn't power up
- he had something connection wrong. He fixed the connection
and then his machine booted up fine. Where did I say otherwise?

You stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

And you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that
its bad for power supplys to run unloaded.

Wow... at first I thought you just liked to troll in these
groups to argue and I wasn't going to stoop to your level,

Corse you never ever argue yourself, eh ?

but damn.... you really are an ass!

That was a JOKE you stupid ****wit. It even had a
smiley on the end for the terminally SOH challenged.

It has to be designed to tolerate normal and unavoidable voltage fluctuations.

Duh. THERE IS STILL NOW SPECIFIED TOLERANCE.

If the fluctuations are within a certain, threshold they are within tolerance.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIED THRESHOLD.

If input voltage is outside this threshold, the PS will shut down.

Wrong again with spikes.

If the input voltage remains within this threshold, it is within tolerance.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIED THRESHOLD.

An AC supply is not perfectly 100% stable so therefore,
a PS has to be designed to tolerate this to a point.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIED THRESHOLD WITH SPIKES.

You said in an earlier post that ALL power supplies start up fine
and stay running without the 5v Power Good line being connected.

No I didnt. You're lying, again.

Yet, I have one in this machine that does not stay
powered if the 5v Power Good line is not connected.

Irrelevant to anything I ever said.

Again....
You said in an earlier post that ALL power supplies start up fine
and stay running without the 5v Power Good line being connected.

No I didnt. You're lying, again.

Yet, I have one in this machine that does not stay
powered if the 5v Power Good line is not connected.

Irrelevant to anything I ever said.

Even when power is switched on an off by a hard wired switch?
Yep.

Even some AT supplies won't stay on without a load.

YEP, BECAUSE IT COSTS MORE TO HAVE
THE POWER SUPPLY START UNLOADED.

The one I have that will not stay on unless I at least have a hard drive
or two connected to it is an AT supply. Again, how is this cheaper?

You clearly know nothing about how switchers of that size are designed.

Or anything else at all either.

And now you're saying none of them say this,

No I'm not, you pathological liar.

which is wrong.

Pity I never ever said that.

You give me that same line even when I say some.

Lying, again.

Just as plenty of them don't.

Pity you previously claimed ALL.

As I can (and have in the past) proved that a
lot of amps do give a damn if this happens.

Pity you previously claimed ALL.

 

[David Matthew Wood]

So you are fooling absolutely no one with your desperate backpeddling.



Not in your original you never did.

This is true. Dunno why you continue to rub that in though, since it's
been established already.

Your stupid claim that it shuts down to protect anything when its unloaded.

Yes, in this case itself.

No one ever said they didnt.

All ATX supplies are supposed to have this protection. Yet, I have seen
cheaper ones that don't.

No one ever said they didnt.

So clearly this was a cheaper design that failed to comply with spec.

I never ever said you did.

Then why did you even bring it up, saying that there was no evidence
that it DID damage something?

You stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

And you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that
its bad for power supplys to run unloaded.

Which is why there is protection to keep that from happening.

Corse you never ever argue yourself, eh ?


That was a JOKE you stupid ****wit. It even had a
smiley on the end for the terminally SOH challenged.

I didn't think it was at all funny. In fact, it comes across that you
are a raciest ass is what it does.

Duh. THERE IS STILL NOW SPECIFIED TOLERANCE.

I know there is NOW specified tolerance.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIED THRESHOLD.

But a threshold nonetheless.

Wrong again with spikes.

Shutting down due to under voltage.
There should still be protection against damage from spikes though.
Cheaper supplies tend to not have as good protection however.

Either way, there is a specified range between 100 and 127 volts (or 200
and 240) in which the power supply should function as normal.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIED THRESHOLD.

100-127
or
200-240 as per ATX spec.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIED THRESHOLD WITH SPIKES.

again
100-127
or
200-240 as per ATX spec.

No I didnt. You're lying, again.

quite a while ago I said:
However, on some power supplies, if there is a power
surge or any other issue (which can be caused by a
fried component on the motherboard), "Power Good"
will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.

To which you said:
Nope

Well, I have running in this machine a power supply that will not remain
on if the Power Good line is not connected to anything. This counts as
"any other issue".

Irrelevant to anything I ever said.

Me:
I have quite a few that will shut down if load on PG does not exist.

You:
Fantasy. There are quite a few that will shut down if the
OUTPUT RAILS arent loaded, a different matter entirely.

No I didnt. You're lying, again.

Yes, you did.
You said that what I was saying about some supplies not remaining
powered up if the Power Good line is not connected to anything was
"fantasy".

Irrelevant to anything I ever said.
nope.



YEP, BECAUSE IT COSTS MORE TO HAVE
THE POWER SUPPLY START UNLOADED.


You clearly know nothing about how switchers of that size are designed.

Or anything else at all either.



No I'm not, you pathological liar.


Pity I never ever said that.

See? Even if I say "plenty" which is not "all", you still say they
don't. And yet, they do.

Lying, again.

You just did.

Pity you previously claimed ALL.

Whether I say "All" or "plenty", you still say it's wrong. So why
bother.

Pity you previously claimed ALL.

Oh STFU.

 

[Rod Speed]

This is true. Dunno why you continue to rub that
in though, since it's been established already.

Because you keep attempting to claim that you only ever made
that comment in context and that is clearly a bare faced lie.

Yes, in this case itself.

Still wrong, the supply doesnt need any protection when running unloaded,
it will either start fine unloaded and wont get damaged or it wont start.

In spit of your original claim that has always been just plain wrong.

All ATX supplies are supposed to have this protection.
Yet, I have seen cheaper ones that don't.

No news.

All ATX supplys are supposed to ensure that nothing powered
from them can be killed if the power supply dies for whatever
reason too, and there are plenty of examples of cheap supplys
that have dies and taken some of what is powered from them
with them when they die.

That is NOT the same as not having ANY protection.

So clearly this was a cheaper design that failed to comply with spec.
Duh.

Then why did you even bring it up, saying that there
was no evidence that it DID damage something?

Because you made that stupid pig ignorant claim that
some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.

Which is why there is protection to keep that from happening.

No there isnt. They dont all start unloaded, in fact most dont
start unloaded BUT THAT IS NOT DUE TO PRETECTION
THATS BEEN ADDED TO STOP IT STARTING UNLOADED.

Its because its cheaper to design the supply that way.

I didn't think it was at all funny.

You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly
irrelevant. What you may or may not think is funny in spades.

In fact, it comes across that you are a raciest ass is what it does.

It was a JOKE, you stupid ****wit clown.

Dont laugh, see if I actually give a flying red **** whether you do or not.

I know there is NOW specified tolerance.

No you dont.

But a threshold nonetheless.
Nope.

Shutting down due to under voltage.

They dont all do that either.

There should still be protection against damage from spikes though.
Cheaper supplies tend to not have as good protection however.
Duh.

Either way, there is a specified range between 100 and 127 volts
(or 200 and 240) in which the power supply should function as normal.

Irrelevant to that stupid pig ignorant claim you made, AGAIN.

100-127
or
200-240 as per ATX spec.

That aint the SPIKES you were clearly discussing,
you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

again
100-127
or
200-240 as per ATX spec.

That aint the SPIKES you were clearly discussing,
you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

quite a while ago I said:
However, on some power supplies, if there is a power
surge or any other issue (which can be caused by a
fried component on the motherboard), "Power Good"
will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.

To which you said:
Nope

Which is nothing like what you lied about me saying.

Well, I have running in this machine a power supply that will not
remain on if the Power Good line is not connected to anything.
This counts as "any other issue".

Nothing like what you lied about me saying.

And you are STILL just plain wrong with that original claim
about the Power Good going down if something is fried on
the motherboard. The Power Good line is a signal FROM
THE POWER SUPPLY that its rails are all within spec.

Me:
I have quite a few that will shut down if load on PG does not exist.

You:
Fantasy. There are quite a few that will shut down if the
OUTPUT RAILS arent loaded, a different matter entirely.

That claim about the power supply shutting
down if the PG line isnt loaded is pure fantasy.

And the ATX spec says NOTHING about that happening, let alone requiring that.

Yes, you did.

No I didnt.

You said that what I was saying about some supplies not remaining powered
up if the Power Good line is not connected to anything was "fantasy".

And it is. There are two parts to that lie of yours above.

Yep.

See? Even if I say "plenty" which is not "all", you still say they don't.

Lying, as always.

And yet, they do.

Pity I never ever said that.

You just did.

Lying, as always.

Whether I say "All" or "plenty", you still say it's wrong.

Lying, as always.

So why bother.

So why lie ?

Oh STFU.

FTRES

 

[David Matthew Wood]

Because you keep attempting to claim that you only ever made
that comment in context and that is clearly a bare faced lie.

In context of the original poster's problem.

Still wrong, the supply doesnt need any protection when running unloaded,
it will either start fine unloaded and wont get damaged or it wont start.

In spit of your original claim that has always been just plain wrong.

My original claim is that some won't stay on if they don't see a load on
power good. I have one of them in this computer. If I take away power
good, it will shut off.

No news.

Which is what I meant by "don't have any protection". Again, in context
to the original post in this thread.

All ATX supplys are supposed to ensure that nothing powered
from them can be killed if the power supply dies for whatever
reason too, and there are plenty of examples of cheap supplys
that have dies and taken some of what is powered from them
with them when they die.

That is NOT the same as not having ANY protection.

Well they certainly don't have protection against shorted rails, which
they are all supposed to! Therefore, I don't consider this protection!
If it's not up to spec, it's not what I consider protection.

Because you made that stupid pig ignorant claim that
some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.

If their protection isn't up to spec, I don't consider it protection.

You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly
irrelevant. What you may or may not think is funny in spades.

Whether or not that was a joke is also irrelevant. Either way though,
it shows you're a raciest. That's too bad, really.

It was a JOKE, you stupid ****wit clown.

A joke a raciest would make.

Dont laugh, see if I actually give a flying red **** whether you do or not.

DAMN! Someone's got something shoved up his ass, and it's not me.

No you dont.

You said "THERE IS STILL NOW SPECIFIED TOLERANCE". And yes, there is.

Nope.

So then you're saying that a power supply will fail to work if input
voltages changes just by a couple of volts? Glad I don't have any such
beast here.

They dont all do that either.

Then they're not up to ATX spec. What kind of protection is that?

Irrelevant to that stupid pig ignorant claim you made, AGAIN.



That aint the SPIKES you were clearly discussing,
you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

A spike can refer to any short period of overvoltage condition. If a
supply is rated for 110 and it gets a spike of 127, that is within
spec'ed tolerance and the supply is not supposed to have a problem with
this. 127 may not be a damaging spike, but it is still a spike
nonetheless.

That aint the SPIKES you were clearly discussing,
you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

I wasn't discussing spikes! I only mentioned the word spike - which can
refer to any short period of overvoltage. A power supply is supposed to
handle this quite happily up to 127 - quite a bit above the juice you
are supposed to be getting from a power outlet.

Which is nothing like what you lied about me saying.

You said that in several posts back. I have a power supply running in
this computer that will indeed shut down if I cut "power good"! PERIOD.

That claim about the power supply shutting
down if the PG line isnt loaded is pure fantasy.

I have one right here, running my computer. If I cut PG, it WILL turn
off!

And the ATX spec says NOTHING about that happening, let alone requiring that.

But some still do. I have one!

No I didnt.


And it is. There are two parts to that lie of yours above.

First you say there is not a load on power good. Then you say it's
cheaper to design a supply that will not turn on if there is no load on
power good. THEN you say the lack of a load on power good does not turn
off a supply....now you're saying it does. MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

Yep.

How? Yon contradicted your own statement about power good a couple of
times just a few lines above this one!

Lying, as always.


Pity I never ever said that.

You just did, by telling me I was wrong when I said plenty of them warn
you not to run an amp without a load!

 

[bughunter.dustin]

Thanks to you and all who responded.

My original post asserted that I wasn't an engineer. True. But I
solved the problem with your advice above, thinking systematically like
an engineer. I disconnected the power supply and connected everything
one by one, and the computer is now fully functional. From a little
research I did, I think my issue was that I'd connected the 3.5" floppy
power incorrectly or partially.

Missed a pin huh? From the sounds of it, it was probably not a hot
wire... Good thing, smoke a floppy drive otherwise.

I also appreciate everyone's point about not being cheap. In 15+ years
of heavy computer use, i've never had a PSU go bad on me. But given all
the heartache this burnout caused, I'll from now on spend the extra
money for an Antec or other name brand supply. If I'd lost something
really important and known that an extra $40-50 would have averted the
disaster, I'd have been kicking myself.

Do yourself a big favor, plan a disaster recovery situation now, while
you can. IE: Backups. Backup the data your concerned with. PSU unit
failures are a common thing, regardless of the name stamped on the PSU
unit. All PSU's will eventually fail, that's life. The idea is, your
data doesn't go down with the machine.

 

[bughunter.dustin]

Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:

I've seen an Antec and a Seatronic (neither are considered, poor
quality) both die, and both took out the cpu/mainboard. You could still
boot the cpu on another board, but diagnostics with hotcpu test would
indicate bad l2 cache on the processor. You could verify this later by
failed windows installations.

1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after leaving
the factory

Really depends on several factors... Power line conditions to your
home, weather conditions outside your home, whether or not your home
has a good electrical ground to earth...

2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other components
with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power supplies kill

A power surge strong enough is going to pass most/all PSU units and
toast other hardware.

motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.

Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect that the
first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out with it. The second
one can't even power itself, apparently.

Nah....It really depends. I agree, he's being cheap, but..

It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that often spending an
extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power supply can save a complete rebuild,
costing hundreds of bucks. -Dave

Tell that to emachine. Best Tec strikes again should have been it's
selling logo.. hehe

The standby voltage on a bad best tec, will jump to 6+ volts, toasting
the poor mainboard. Emachine knew of this problem for several years. I
wonder how many emachine owners replaced a power supply, only to find
the board/cpu were bad too? heh.

 

[bughunter.dustin]

It lasted about three weeks, or the first power fluctuation - Lost the
power supply and mother board.

And while your forking out the hard earned cash on a good PSU, get a
good UPS as well. What's the point of a nice PSU if you have dirty
power coming into it?

Just agreeing with you, One should not scrimp on the power supply, buy
the best.

And don't be a cheap bastard when it comes to protecting it, either.

Tripplite/APC are your friends, get a UPS, be a happy person. No power
flucuations. The nicer ones always run your box on an isolated circuit
actually fed by the battery. A true square wave is what you want to
shoot for.

 

[bughunter.dustin]

David Matthew Wood wrote:

Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power Good,
such power supplies don't provide any protection either. If you try to
fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the correct loads (either
from not being properly connected or from something that is shorting),
it will shut down in order to prevent damage since it is bad for a power
supply to run without a load. Same goes with amps. If you power up an

Who told you such nonsense? A power supply isn't like an Amplifier,
well, it sort of is electronically, but running one without a load
isn't going to hurt it. Your not increasing voltage, your dropping it!

amp and crank the volume without speakers attached, it will either a, go
into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.

Not the same concept... And this mainly applies to radio equipment and
some poor quality amplifiers. It's the SWR I think that your talking
about. Firing up a cb radio for example with no antenna and
transmitting can damage the finals (transistors...)... but, for
receive, it doesn't hurt anything. Just don't key the mic.

 

[bughunter.dustin]

What, that cheap POS power supplies don't shut down right away if
something is shorting? Well lets see. I have some sitting around that

Some power supplies shut down when the voltage request goes too high;
IE: ground out condition, sure. Some do not, some will fight by
increasing available amps until something gives.. These power supplies
think your just requesting more power.

will not power up at all because something in the machine shorted them
out. I have others sitting around that still power up and work just
fine after being shorted out, because they shut down right away before
damage was done.

I suspect if you pop the case on a bad one and go probing, you'll find
a blown diode is causing the power supply to play dead.

Shutting down before damage is done you mean. I've witnessed both.

Damage with electronics can happen the instant power is applied. No
circuit in the world can protect for every situation.

A, something will short out and PS will smoke.
or
B, something will short out and PS will turn off. In which case, after
dealing with whatever caused the short, the power supply will come to
life and work just fine.

Or option C, the power supply has a safety diode, in the event
something is wired up reverse, the diode blows before anything else
does.

Oh really? Why don't you try it then. Force a cheap power supply on
and let it run for a while without a load. See what happens.

Not a damn thing is going to happen. Do you know why? Because the power
supply is a glorified step down transformer, ac/dc converter and
partial noise filter, nothing more, nothing less. No "load" damage to
speak of. If this nonsense were true, people plugging in nintendos,
ataris, etc, (coleco anyone?) would have torched their PSU a long time
ago.


Power supplies do not increase current, they do not have final output
transistors, they do not get signal reflection.. IE: a no load
condition is not going to hurt them in the least bit.

Want to run it for awhile with no load to see for yourself? (Btw, the
power supply has a cooling fan, so it's already got a load on power
up...) Take a paperclip, find the thin purple wire, short it against
one of the black wires (doesn't really matter which, they're all
ground, all goto the same place in the PSU too), and it'll power up and
remain on so long as the paperclip is in place.

You can even take voltage readings from the psu unit in this state,
without any worry that you risk harming the rest of the computer in the
event the psu is unstable.

Again...oh really? Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio
feed, disconnect anything that will create a load on the outputs, crank
the levels, and see what happens.

This isn't the same. You get signal reflection, the load is necessary
to absorb most of it. A power supply doesn't have any signal
reflection, it's not amplifying anything. It's taking 120volts AC,
converting it to 12+, 5+, 7.5+, 12-, 5- volts dc current..

Your confusing a power supply with a radio transmitter..

 

[bughunter.dustin]

Um.... no. Many years ago, I overestimated the space between the bottom
of a hard drive and the metal frame of the case. Turned machine on,
drive control board shorted and smoked. Because of this short, power
supply also smoked. How is that an assumption exactly?

That doesn't mean the power supply had no protection, it means you
managed to short out the 12 volt and 5volt rails.. Very stupid on your
part.

And again later, I unknowingly had a bad power connector which turned
out to be shorted. Fired up the supply, it came on for not even half a

I suspect if you had shorted both rails as you did previously, said
power supply might have died a horrible death. It depends on it's
internal design, of course.

second, and turned itself off again. Short was cleared, power was fired
up again, and all was well.

Did you get an amp reading? If not, you can't be sure the power supply
was okay. You also can't be sure the initial short didn't cause some
components to become weak, and shorten the life of the power supply.

I had one smoke due to this.

One rail, probably not, both rails to ground (which ehh, is what you
obviously did) might/can kill a power supply.

Yes, and the better designed supplies shut down before this happens -
just as the better designs shut off in time to save themselves if they
are shorted.

Not always.

Then why do the manufacturers of these very supplies advise against this?

Do you have a url for a psu manufacturer who advises against running
them with no load? (note this isn't actually possible, the psu itself
places a load on some of it's own components, so really it is under
load the entire time..)

high power, it will eventually kill the amp - if it doesn't trip the
protection circuits first!

An amp isn't the same as a psu in your computer. Your amp is taking a
small electrical signal and boosting it, possibly cleaning it up, and
sending it on thru. Your power supply isn't boosting anything, it's
reducing and converting, and if it's a really good one, doing some
fairly nice square wave filtering.

Well since you seem to know more than the people who made these amps,
all of whom say NEVER run an amp without a load...

A linear amplifier, shouldn't be run without a load, you will hurt it,
The SWR will blow the finals.. A stereo amplifier isn't the same idea.
I had big amps in the 80s when I was growing up, big stereo amps, from
the old school stereo systems. Didn't hurt them a bit to fire it up
with no speakers attached. I've got two peaveys here that don't mind
either.

And while these speakers are being over driven, you are still driving
them and thus the amp is seeing a load! How long after completely
melting the speaker coils, have you run this amp exactly? How long have
you let it run under constant high power without a load? Do you
actually test this by turning the volume up higher and higher AFTER you
manage to blow the speakers?

You do realize, unless you have a load on the amp, nothing is using any
amplified signal right? Your not transmitting via an antenna, Your
amplifyer isn't actually having to work unless/until a speaker is
connected, regardless of your volume setting.

I've blown several sets of car speakers using car amps, household amps,
etc etc etc, left one running all night when I passed out once. I
awoke to burned up speakers, but the amp was perfectly fine, connected
new speakers, walla, tunes blaring again.

A stereo amplifier isn't the same as a radio amplifier, such as a
linear for ham/cb rig. The reason those will blow is due to the SWR,
it's a signal reflection from the finals, Without a load (dummy load or
antenna) the RF energy comes back to the finals, toasting them in the
process. A car/home/house/guitar amp doesn't work like this.

 

[bughunter.dustin]

There are no 'output transformers'

Output transistors They do the real work inside the amp.. hehe.

There are no 'output transformers'

Maybe he's talking about the little coil that sorta looks like a small
transformer?
(it's only purpose is to keep the signal cleaner.. heh)

You know, if the guy was talking about an amplifier for a radio
transmitter, he'd be right in the sense it shouldn't be run without a
load, but an audio amplifier doesn't generate RF....