PC camera at top of 20-foot pole, wired or wireless?

M

micky

I finally had time to check this out. What a great idea. I wish I'd
though of it!

I've dealt with Monoprice before and they're quite a bit cheaper**, on
ethernet too, I think I haven't ordered yet. Is there any reason I
shouldn't buy from them? They say cables are guaranteed for life, and
the ratings the various active cables get, if you can believe them, are
darn good.

http://www.monoprice.com/Search/Index?keyword=usb+20ft For some
lengths, for 3 dollars more you can get 2 female ends at the female end,
and the ability buy a 5 dollar wall wart to make it a powered hub, or
use it without as a passive hub.

I was going to buy a 16 foot and a 32 foot to get 49 feet but maybe I
should buy 3 16 footers like you did. Maybe one of them with 2 female
ends, for some future use I haven't thought of. (The pole use will be
one time or once a year at most.)
I found they, both Monoprice and Startech, have cables up to 80 feet and
114 feet respectively, but by buying several shorter ones like you did,
you have more versatility for about the same price

**There was another cheap cable vendor, but I can't remember its name or
if it was cheaper or more expensive than Monoprice.

It didn't have the same prices, either cheaper or the opposite.
 
P

Paul

micky said:
I finally had time to check this out. What a great idea. I wish I'd
though of it!

I've dealt with Monoprice before and they're quite a bit cheaper**, on
ethernet too, I think I haven't ordered yet. Is there any reason I
shouldn't buy from them? They say cables are guaranteed for life, and
the ratings the various active cables get, if you can believe them, are
darn good.

I found they, both Monoprice and Startech, have cables up to 80 feet and
114 feet respectively, but by buying several shorter ones like you did,
you have more versatility for about the same price

**There was another cheap cable vendor, but I can't remember its name or
if it was cheaper or more expensive than Monoprice.

As a general rule with the Active cables, you need to check the
reviews.

There were a few Active cables, that don't work right when
concatenated. If you connected three in a row, as I did, they
didn't work. So you want at least one reviewer, to tell you
that the product worked properly when concatenated.

The long one at Monoprice, with the power input capability,
someone commented that they attempted to connect power at
the remote end, and had a problem. What you should know
about this, is a proper design of bus power/self power, the
equipment has to decide where to draw the power from. The
application note I got from a USB hub manufacturer (and the
blob on the end of the cable is an actual hub), is to use
a relay to disconnect bus power from the wall adapter
you plug into the hub end. When the Remote_Adapter is
plugged in, the relay automatically swings over to only
accept power from the Remote_Adapter. There is "zero"
voltage drop using this method, and it's easier to
guarantee the USB power stays in spec with this design
idea. The application note I got, specifically did not
mention a diode solution instead. They only specified
this idea, for the equipment designer.

------- VBUS -----------------X _______ To camera
/
Remote_Adapter ---X/

Relay
in Hub

Some self-powered hubs (with external adapter),
they don't have any protection at all, and they
do something like this. Now, two power sources
are tied together.

------- VBUS -----------------+---------- To camera
|
Remote_Adapter ---+

What that does, is it has the potential to pump
electricity down the cable and to the left. And
fight with the main computer power supply. Which in
many circumstances seems to work, but not always. If
enough current flows backwards, the fuse opens on the
motherboard end, for example.

And they cannot use diodes like this, because
the forward drop is too much for the USB power
budget. Here, I use the ">" symbol for a diode.

------- VBUS --------------->-+---------- To camera
|
Remote_Adapter -->-+

Diodes
in Hub

Diodes are unidirectional devices, which prevent
backward current flow. I have some diodes here
with a 0.3V drop (Schottky), but that might
cause the voltage to be out of spec at the
camera. Using the diodes, does prevent
fights back at the ATX power supply on
the computer end.

*******

In any case:

1) "Legal" cables, ones using nothing but USB protocol,
are not supposed to be longer than 5 meters or 16 feet.

2) Some long cables, use multiple hub chips, and more than
one blob in the cable. This is like two 16 foot cables
soldered together, with no opportunity to split them in
half. This is still a "legal" configuration, as it's
just two items from (1), permanently fastened together.
You look carefully at the product picture, to make sure
it "has enough blobs" in the cable, for the length.

3) Some of the longer ones, may be using something other
than USB protocol. In such cases, what you don't know, is
whether the design carries data at 480Mbit/sec like the
"pure" USB cable in (1).

4) The ability to provide a Remote_Adapter, down at the
load end, is a great idea. The inclusion of the relay,
would make the "blob" on the end of the cable a bit larger.
If the blob doesn't end up larger, the design concept used
may be less than ideal. And some posters here have posted
about their experiences before, with self-powered four
port hubs that push power back down the cable, and that
just isn't good for all concerned.

You don't have to connect the Remote_adapter, and can attempt
to use VBUS power from the computer. That worked in my case.

So check your reviews, make sure at least some one person
has tested your proposed config, and make your buying
decision. Because they did make some cables in the past,
which didn't work when chained, it means we have to
carefully filter the items for sale in 2014. Even though
they might all work now, for all I know. Shop carefully.

Paul
 
M

micky

Is this a Win 98 camera? Mine will not work with later Win versions.

No, the CD that I found lists XP on the label.
What is the cam resolution?

I don't know.
That determines data volume and possibly
cable compatibility. if you app allows, then change the update rate
too.
A powered USB extension should work. i.e. one with a built-in powered
transmittter and receiver chip. I have used these at work and they
usually work as a 20ft extension.

Sounds like a great idea. If I need 48 feet, would you get a 16 foot
and a 32 foot, or three 16 footers?
I have found that the drivers from e.g logitech allows a cam to work
with logitech sw but i have to install all from the DVD/CD to get the
cam to other apps. A real pain. I did install all from the logitch
website download page and still the cam would not work with other apps
until i used the DVD/CD. then had to reinstall the updated apps for
logitech sw. unfortunately in my case the logitech apps just do not
do what i need. other apps do.

I don't know if this sort of thing applies to me or not. It was very
hard to get the old cheap camera working. I'll explain that somewhere.
I installed on another PC from the DVD/cD the first time and everything
worked. so logiteh is holding out on us unless we have the original
DVD/CD. poor consumer relations if you ask me.

My other video app with the cam set for 1080P is very slow at updating
since the cam and cable and PC port is only USB2. it maxes out the
USB2 speed. waiting for a cam with true USB3 speed capabity for use
with my new USB3 laptop.

I don't have anything USB3.
 
M

micky

Cameras run over Ethernet cable (so-called IP cameras), they can have
a power adapter located right near the camera. Or, you can send power
to them remotely, using a method called PoE. Obtaining "local power",
the first option, would not be easy with a flag pole.

It's not actually a flagpole, just a pole.

The people in this group are much different from those in
alt.home.repair. They always want to know all the details of what one
is going to do, and indeed, often people leave out important details.

I hope you all don't lose interest in helping me when you find out.
Details at the bottom.**

What it will be is a temporary pole, an extendable thing normally used
with a paint roller or a squeegee on the end (It has threads that fit
the handles of those things). That I will hold up and move to the
places I want to look at. So I could tapei a power supply to the pole
and below that tape an extension cord for the AC power

But I'm also trying to foresee the next use for the camera, and it's
worth spending a little more for something that will work for that, once
I figure out what all my future uses will be. )

(I've got the cheap camera that I already owned working now -- that's
what took me so long to post again -- but I have a feeling I won't be
able to see enough with it. It has tremendous glare with anything
white, even inside in moderate light. Outside in sunlight with the
inside of metal gutters as the target, I expect it will be much worse.
And it's hard to focus. I thought infinity would be at one end or the
other, screwing the lens in or out, but it seems to be in the middle!!)
PoE would
be a neater solution in that case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet

Sounds cool.
USB, on the other hand, has two powering methods. The +5V VBUS available
on the PC connector, can travel all the way to the camera on the end of
the cable. That would be "bus powered".

This sounds great too, if you're including *active* usb cables.
Or the other way, is to place
a powered hub near the USB camera, which is a "self powered" solution.
The 500mA of current in that case, the "self powered" case, comes
from the adapter powering the powered hub up near the camera. Again,
a flag pole does not have an AC outlet at the top, so running
a local power adapter up there is not a good option.

Somehow this one doesn't appeal to me as much as the active usb cables
so.
I was able to run my Logitech 9000 USB camera using bus power, and 48
feet of (repeatering) cable. So that sort of thing can be done. My

What do you think three 16' cables or two 16' and one 32' cable?

Any point in making one of the cables USB3?
Logitech, at 1280 resolution, only does 5FPS over USB cable. An

That's more than enough, even though the camera will be moving. In
testing, I got messages sayiing Frame 1, 2,3,4 so quickly. I never
found the pictures though. When I went to the place I assigned for
capture, I found an .avi file that was more a meg long but Win Media
Player woudln't play it, said it was the wrong codec or it was damaged.
But I found, elsewhere another .avi file from the camera that it would
play,
IP camera can sometimes do better than that, but IP cameras also usually
have slightly better compression options than my Logitech does.
And IP cameras also tend to be more expensive. Good IP cameras
also have "proper" sensors, such as a HAD sensor with better
responsiveness in dark situations.

So as the "security consultant", your job is to decide whether
your cabling solution, supports both data and power. And whether
the methods support mixing both on the same cable, or whether
the data provider took PoE into account when designing
their rig. If you insist on mixing technologies, it can still
work, but just requires the research to make sure you aren't
making any mistakes.

Okay. I'll try.
*******

This gadget, for example, allows a way to get 5V @ 2.5A up
to the device on the end of an Ethernet cable. But then you're
left wondering whether you can mix this with the data solution
or not. PoE really shouldn't have any "gotchas", as the
Ethernet pairs would normally be galvanically isolated,
but you should still think about it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833127048

This cheesy (due to price, and fabrication about frame rates)
camera expects PoE as a power source, so the router
at the source end would need to be a PoE capable device,

So you're saying that some routers don't put out the 5 volts that the
camera needs to run? My router is 10 years old more or less. D-Link
DI-524 I've been trying to dl the manual to see if it mentions POE,
but having problems with 2 different links. Well I never got the
manual but I got a tech page that says it doesn't have POE, and I
believe it.
to make the installation a cinch. The way real cameras work, is
full frame rate is available at 640, but when the resolution is
maxed, not many of these cameras still run at full frame rate.
It's surprisingly difficult to get a camera that runs
flat out. Guessing at the price, I would not expect a good
scheme for $50. Whereas $1000 to $2000 or so will get you something
worth having (PTZ, decent sensor, optical variable zoom as digital
zoom sucks).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16881102063

I still like it because of the SD card, which I'm guerssing will save
the pictures, but I gather since the router has no POE, i'll need the
injector below (or a new router.)
But those solutions all leave me wondering whether they'll work
together or not.

This one is an injector. It puts PoE on Ethernet wires (on the
in-the-house end), when the computer or router doesn't have PoE.
This box is a power supply, and it puts a voltage on the CAT cable,
that the IP camera can extract on its end. It comes in 10/100BT version
and a GbE (gigabit Ethernet four pair) version. If your camera
really needs GbE rates, then that would force your hand as
to which type to get.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA29J0ZX7310

http://www.tyconpower.com/products/files/TPS_POE_Power_Source_Spec_Sheet.pdf

$44 but I'll bear it in mind for when needed.
So there are a variety of techniques for getting some form
of power and data on cables.

All fun stuff I'm sure.

*******

A camera at "flag pole distance from the ground",

I'm only trying to look 6 inches down.
will not be able to see a lot of detail. A person's
head will be around 3 pixels high and 3 pixels wide.
Which is not sufficient for "proof" in a court case.
The only situation where a cheap camera provides
good proof, is a camera covering a hallway, where
everything is "close".

For distant situations, a PTZ camera with optical
zoom (and a human to operate it), provides some
means of better framing camera shots.

I've only experimented a bit with cameras, and
that's what I've noticed so far. It takes money.
The only situation you can cover cheaply, is
a hallway leading to your front door.

Paul


**At least temporarily, I've gotten too fat and too old to climb a
ladder to clean out the gutters on my two story house. And for the
first time in the 31 years I've been here, the rear one is partially
clogged, and water overflows during a heavy rain. Plus I'd have to
borrow a ladder.

I'm 67, and two people have voluteered to do this for me, a guy in his
30's who used to live next door, and a friend who is 77, yes 77, but in
much better shape than I am. But if I start letting people do for me,
I'll really be old. So I got a device just for cleaning gutters,
connects to the garden hose and is J-shaped at the end. And it
telescopes to about 8 or 10 feet. But wouldnt' reach. I tried a 6
foot ladder but still not long enough. So I had a telescoping pole I
used to paint the end of my house, the top half of the attic, and I
taped the washer pole to this pole, using clear tape, which I think has
less stickum on it, so it won't clog**** the telescoping parts, and
covered that with Duck tape, and now I can get all the way up there. I
spent tota time 2 hours, 60 to 90 minutes elaplsed time, going from the
left all the way to the right, and then back again.

****turns out they don't fit together that closely anyhow and a little
crud wouldn't interfere, but I'm still glad I started with clear ttape.

But then I didn't know if I had done a good job, and had to wait until
it rained. When it rained, I'd moved the clog and maybe made it
smaller, but now I need to know what the clog looks like so I can try to
flush it out again. Someone also suggested PVC pipe connected to a shop
vac to suck it out, but I still want to see where it is dirty and where
it is not. I have the vac and the PVC should cost less than 10
dollars.

The camera will be attached somehow to the water flusher (when it's dry)
or to the PVC.

Last summer a cottonwood tree fell down and seemed to free an awful lot
of cottonwood seeds, which formed a paste-like mess on a small part of
my yard. I think that's what it is, that it's sticky, and if I get it
off this year, since the tree fell down, I won't have to clean gutters
for several more years.

But if all this doesn't work, I'll borrow the ladder and a friend or I
will go up and clean it.

Thanks.
 
P

Paul

micky said:
**At least temporarily, I've gotten too fat and too old to climb a
ladder to clean out the gutters on my two story house. And for the
first time in the 31 years I've been here, the rear one is partially
clogged, and water overflows during a heavy rain. Plus I'd have to
borrow a ladder.

Note that water also will overflow, if the rise
over run is not correct. That's a problem with my gutter
right now, and I have a temporary fix in place.
The tilt of the gutter can change, if the wood starts
to rot, and the gutter is sagging a bit.
I'm 67, and two people have voluteered to do this for me, a guy in his
30's who used to live next door, and a friend who is 77, yes 77, but in
much better shape than I am. But if I start letting people do for me,
I'll really be old. So I got a device just for cleaning gutters,
connects to the garden hose and is J-shaped at the end. And it
telescopes to about 8 or 10 feet. But wouldnt' reach. I tried a 6
foot ladder but still not long enough. So I had a telescoping pole I
used to paint the end of my house, the top half of the attic, and I
taped the washer pole to this pole, using clear tape, which I think has
less stickum on it, so it won't clog**** the telescoping parts, and
covered that with Duck tape, and now I can get all the way up there. I
spent tota time 2 hours, 60 to 90 minutes elaplsed time, going from the
left all the way to the right, and then back again.

****turns out they don't fit together that closely anyhow and a little
crud wouldn't interfere, but I'm still glad I started with clear ttape.

But then I didn't know if I had done a good job, and had to wait until
it rained. When it rained, I'd moved the clog and maybe made it
smaller, but now I need to know what the clog looks like so I can try to
flush it out again. Someone also suggested PVC pipe connected to a shop
vac to suck it out, but I still want to see where it is dirty and where
it is not. I have the vac and the PVC should cost less than 10
dollars.

The camera will be attached somehow to the water flusher (when it's dry)
or to the PVC.

Last summer a cottonwood tree fell down and seemed to free an awful lot
of cottonwood seeds, which formed a paste-like mess on a small part of
my yard. I think that's what it is, that it's sticky, and if I get it
off this year, since the tree fell down, I won't have to clean gutters
for several more years.

But if all this doesn't work, I'll borrow the ladder and a friend or I
will go up and clean it.

Thanks.

My neighbor has a leaf blower. He waits until the gutter is
bone dry, then blows the refuse out of the gutter that way.

I use a home made "gutter dustpan". It's a U-shaped piece of
sheet metal, like a scoop sorta. It is over a foot long. At
one end, a square piece of wood forms something to nail the
U-shaped sheet metal to, to make it maintain a U shape. The
other end, is an open metal U-shape. I use a paint stirrer
stick (wooden), to scoop stuff from the gutter, into the scoop.
The scoop fits inside the gutter, and makes a sort of
ramp so you can scoop debris up into the scoop, then
dump the scoop somewhere (into a bucket).

My debris includes a lot of gravel (tar and gravel roof),
as well as plant matter.

Both my neighbor and I, do this while looking down on the gutter,
so we have ladders for the job. That was one of the
first accessories I bought for my house, was the
requisite "tall enough" ladder. That ladder has
been through hell, and could tell a tale or two.
I've even had that ladder sitting on top of other
things, to make it taller :) That's how I do
some tree trimming.

*******

When it is raining, and the gutter downspout drainhole is plugged,
I use a telescoping pole, with a dowel around 18" long on the end.
The assembly is shaped like this. I leave this assembled all the
time, as I've used it around a half-dozen times now.

+--+
| | 1.5 feet approx
| |
12 feet |
|
|

You stand underneath the place where the
drain hole is supposed to be, then poke
the dowel at the mass plugging the hole.
After a bit of poking, the plug loosens and
it starts to run. Yes, I get wet while doing
this in the rain, but it covers me for cases
where I forgot what season it is, what kind of
plant matter collects up there (maple leaves
or seeds) and so on. Under ideal conditions, I've
cleaned it with the other gadget. I don't own a leaf
blower, and don't intend to buy one soon, so
I will not be doing it as my neighbor does.

*******

With regard to holding a pole with a camera
on the end, you're never going to get the
image stable enough, to figure out the state
of the gutter. If your telescoping pole rests
against the gutter, that will help a bit, and
then it won't wiggle quite as badly.

I only provided a taste of the info on PoE,
to give some idea how the industry standard
for shoving 48V onto Ethernet cables, allows
getting remote power to things like wired IP
cameras. (The 48V is converted to other voltages,
by power converter at the load end.) PoE is not
documented well enough, for home users to be
using it. But people who install security cameras,
will have toys like that they can use during an
install. Some commercial routers, have PoE on
every port, which makes Ethernet security camera
installs a cinch.

*******

There are other options for you. Don't get
"too techy" :) Be an inventor at heart. If
you take a mirror, perhaps a portable one
around 8" x 6" and swivel it at the right
angle, on the end of your telescoping pole,
that will be more practical as an inspection
aid than your camera idea. The advantage
there, is you crane your neck to maneuver
the pole, and at the same time, you can look
at the mirror.

I use such a technique for car repairs. When the
car leaks a fluid, I stick a pole under the car,
with a small mirror on the end. Around 3"x5".
I shove an extension light under the car,
for lighting. Then work the pole, and mirror,
until I can see stuff. The mirror is loosely
attached and with a bit of wiggling will
assume a 45 degree angle so I can get a reflection.
That's where the idea for doing that to your
gutter, comes to mind. You'll likely
need a bigger mirror, to make a decent
sized image. I bought a mirror specifically
for the car inspection idea. It was hard
to find a good one.

My last car leak, was fixed yesterday. Power
steering fluid on the return-to-reservoir side.
There's always some sort of puddle in my driveway.

Paul
 
M

micky

Note that water also will overflow, if the rise
over run is not correct. That's a problem with my gutter
right now, and I have a temporary fix in place.
The tilt of the gutter can change, if the wood starts
to rot, and the gutter is sagging a bit.

Well, when it was raining hard, I used the J-shaped thing from my
bedroom window, and I could move the crud to the right, I could feel it
moving, and I could see the overflow moving along with it. But the
window isn't wide enough to fix the whole thing.
My neighbor has a leaf blower. He waits until the gutter is
bone dry, then blows the refuse out of the gutter that way.

That's a good idea too. I have a leaf blower that I got out of the
trash and fixed. It's electric though so it may not be as powerful as
his. (Personally I'd rather use a rake or a broom or just leave the
leaves where they are. My lawn mower mulches them.)
I use a home made "gutter dustpan". It's a U-shaped piece of
sheet metal, like a scoop sorta. It is over a foot long. At
one end, a square piece of wood forms something to nail the
U-shaped sheet metal to, to make it maintain a U shape. The
other end, is an open metal U-shape. I use a paint stirrer
stick (wooden), to scoop stuff from the gutter, into the scoop.
The scoop fits inside the gutter, and makes a sort of
ramp so you can scoop debris up into the scoop, then
dump the scoop somewhere (into a bucket).

My debris includes a lot of gravel (tar and gravel roof),
as well as plant matter.

I have been up on the roof a few times, and high enough to look in the
gutters 1 or 2 other times, and until last year, there was never
anything but a tiny bit of shingle gravel in the gutters. No reason to
clean them (even though there are a lot of tall trees nearby. My lot is
small because it's a townhouse, end of group.)
Both my neighbor and I, do this while looking down on the gutter,
so we have ladders for the job. That was one of the
first accessories I bought for my house, was the
requisite "tall enough" ladder. That ladder has

I wanted a ladder, but there is no outside door to the basement, and I
didn't want it lying around outside. Not because of theft, but without
a fourth side to the house, no good place to put it.
been through hell, and could tell a tale or two.
I've even had that ladder sitting on top of other
things, to make it taller :) That's how I do

Sounds risky.
some tree trimming.

*******

When it is raining, and the gutter downspout drainhole is plugged,
I use a telescoping pole, with a dowel around 18" long on the end.
The assembly is shaped like this. I leave this assembled all the
time, as I've used it around a half-dozen times now.

+--+
| | 1.5 feet approx
| |
12 feet |
|
|

You stand underneath the place where the
drain hole is supposed to be, then poke
the dowel at the mass plugging the hole.
After a bit of poking, the plug loosens and
it starts to run. Yes, I get wet while doing
this in the rain, but it covers me for cases
where I forgot what season it is, what kind of
plant matter collects up there (maple leaves
or seeds) and so on. Under ideal conditions, I've
cleaned it with the other gadget. I don't own a leaf
blower, and don't intend to buy one soon, so
I will not be doing it as my neighbor does.

Sounds like a good idea too, Another advantage of using that J-thing
with the water is that I could watch the water coming out of the
downspout, and there was a lot. I don't think the downspout is
clogged. (I sort of hate seeing the end of the downspout. When I grew
up the downspouts went into the ground and came out at the curb. Where
the downspouts in the rear of the house went, no one knew. But my
father was a dentist and made more money than I do, I guess.
*******

With regard to holding a pole with a camera
on the end, you're never going to get the
image stable enough, to figure out the state
of the gutter. If your telescoping pole rests
against the gutter, that will help a bit, and
then it won't wiggle quite as badly.

Could well be a problem, but I won't know for sure until I try. My
brother is a radiologist and sometimes I'm in the room when he reads
x-rays or MRIs or PET scans, and it all looks like black and grey
nothingness to me, but he knows what it means. Maybe I can be like he is
but wrt gutters.
I only provided a taste of the info on PoE,
to give some idea how the industry standard
for shoving 48V onto Ethernet cables, allows
getting remote power to things like wired IP
cameras. (The 48V is converted to other voltages,
by power converter at the load end.) PoE is not
documented well enough, for home users to be
using it. But people who install security cameras,
will have toys like that they can use during an
install. Some commercial routers, have PoE on
every port, which makes Ethernet security camera
installs a cinch.

Okay, no POE for now.
*******

There are other options for you. Don't get
"too techy" :) Be an inventor at heart. If
you take a mirror, perhaps a portable one
around 8" x 6" and swivel it at the right
angle, on the end of your telescoping pole,
that will be more practical as an inspection
aid than your camera idea. The advantage
there, is you crane your neck to maneuver
the pole, and at the same time, you can look
at the mirror.

25 years ago I was walking by a building in a foreign country and I saw
guys rolling a mirror, maybe 10" x 8", underneath a car coming in the
driveway, and I asked why. It was the USA embassy and they were looking
for bombs. The thing had wheels.
I use such a technique for car repairs. When the
car leaks a fluid, I stick a pole under the car,
with a small mirror on the end. Around 3"x5".
I shove an extension light under the car,
for lighting. Then work the pole, and mirror,
until I can see stuff. The mirror is loosely
attached and with a bit of wiggling will
assume a 45 degree angle so I can get a reflection.
That's where the idea for doing that to your
gutter, comes to mind. You'll likely
need a bigger mirror, to make a decent
sized image. I bought a mirror specifically
for the car inspection idea. It was hard
to find a good one.

My last car leak, was fixed yesterday. Power
steering fluid on the return-to-reservoir side.
There's always some sort of puddle in my driveway.

Congratulations. Because I live in a townhouse with an HOA, I park on
community property. And two cars ago, there were a lot of leaks.
Actually rotting the black top. I put down a quarter sheet of plywood
and that caught most of it, but it's been 11 years since I got rid of
that car and the blacktop was still sort of fluid for half of that time,
and it's missing about a half cup or more of matreial permanently.
Strangely, the complainer in chief of the HOA never complained.
Eventually the whole thing will be repaved.

As to power-steering, that was one of the leaks. They say not to run
without fluid, and maybe there was always some in the bottom of the
pump, but it leaked enough that I had no power assist, and eventually I
drove like that for a year in a row, but as soon as I poured some
power-steering fluid in the pump, it worked good as new until it leaked
out again. This was an '88 Chrysler LeBaron. I can't promise that
other cars will be like this.

Oh, this is good. I had a leak around the oil pan, and I took the car
to a place that rents lifts. It's expensive and unless you're pretty
quick, all the money you save by not paying for the repair is eaten up
by the lift rental. And I didn't realize how crowded it is underneath
these days (just as it is from above). So I thought I did a good job
but 10 minutes from garage, the oil pressure needle was wavering, iirc,
and I opened the hood and oil was spraying everywhere. It was too late
and I was too tired to go back and do it agains, so I went to a nearby
auto parts store and bought a rew quarts of oil. Then I drove home 25
miles and strangely, after the first quart, I didnt' have to add any
more.

The next day I took it to a nearby gas station and he replaced the
gasket again. I should have checked what he did, certainly the next day
I could have, but I didnt' and the day after that, I had to go to near
Boston for a wedding. I live in Baltimore, and I got just north of
philadelphia almost to Trenton when the car needed oil again. I should
have stopped to buy more oil but I didn't, and I missed the exit for my
friends, and the next exit wasn't far, but there was a little hill and
when I started to drive up the hill the oil light went on. So I turned
around and went somewhere else but the hill was just as long and steep.
So this time I raced up the hill, and went to my friends.

The next day it was flat to an autoparts store and go buy a case of ail.

And from Teaneck NJ to near Boston, it was add 2 quarts of oil every 200
miles (or 100?). During the wedding, on Saturday, I got a gas station
to tighten all the bolts, but that didn't help so all the way back to
Baltimore, 2 quarts every 200 miles. The guy redid the job for free
but I didn't ask him to pay for the oil.

So even an experienced guy did no better than I the first time. The
car lasted for years after that with no engine trouble, and got the same
mileage it had until the day before I scrapped it.
 
M

micky

Fun times.

The virus thing with webcam drivers is "normal".
I've run into virus problems, even with drivers
coming from the purported manufacturer's site.

That's encouraging. ;-(
You could use Uwe Sieber's USB tool to list the camera
first. I can't guarantee anything, but maybe it's possible
to determine whether it's a UVC camera or not.

http://www.uwe-sieber.de/files/usbtreeview.zip

Thanks. I dl'd but haven't installed it yet.
A camera consists of a controller and a sensor. And
you can mix different sensors with the same controller.
Which is what makes drivers for non-UVC cameras such fun.

A UVC camera can use a Microsoft driver for basic operation.

Then you need a copy of AMCAP for testing.
This message got a little messed up while I was
preparing it.

http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&A=0&MSGI=<[email protected]>

You want the ZIP file wdmmiscutils2.73.zip and if
you unzip that, there should be an AMCAP in there.
Which will allow viewing webcam output if the
webcam has a driver in place (either Microsoft
built-in or something proprietary that works).

Let me tell you about the driver. I coudln't find one on the CD, in
windows, and I looked all over the web. But eventually I looked and
found the CD for the camera.. Apparently it came on the CD, because
the directory was named Drivers, and there were subdirs for W98, 2000,
and XP (I think each had the very same file.

So I installed it, but when I plugged in the camera, it said Hardware
Found, and it still wanted the hardware installed. I looked on the PC
where .inf files could be found and it didnt' like any of them. So I
Searched the PC using Search, and it found a few more inf files
including one that came from a zip file I had dl'd when looking for the
driver.

I pointed to that and it worked and it told me to restart the computer
and the camera worked.

Isn't it unusual for some of the software to come on the CD but not all
of it?
 
M

micky

I tried to find a true USB3 camera, and they
seem to be hard to find.

For the amusement value, this USB3 camera uses
an FPGA (for custom silicon development of the
controller), and presumably a decent Sony sensor.
It does 3376 x 2704 @ 9FPS. Which would be 240MB/sec
if completely un-encoded and transmitted in a naive manner.
You can be sure it's more efficient than that. The data
rate won't be nearly that high. $3,850.00

Wow. That's more than I want to spend.
http://www.edmundoptics.com/imaging...per-3-high-performance-usb-3-0-cameras/88-056

http://ww2.ptgrey.com/_PGR_Uploads/PGRNA/files/Grasshopper3-datasheet.pdf

At some point, it just makes more sense to get a
regular video camera.

There was another camera design there, that does
a little better than HD - 1920 x 1200 @ 162FPS.
The picture on the left demonstrates the
global shutter feature, so there are fewer
motion artifacts. They're shooting the blade
of a fan (presumably under relatively high intensity
lighting). You won't be shooting this quality, by
moonlight.

There was another company, which offered cameras with USB2,
Firewire400, and GbE (Ethernet) interfaces, and the speed
of the interface didn't seem to matter as much as the sensor
supplying the data (the GbE cameras at 125MB/sec max, weren't
amazingly good). Some of the sensors get relatively hot when
delivering 20MB/sec feeds. So the sensor end is as much of an issue,
as the I/O method. Some of the old sensors worked pretty hard
for their paltry data rates.

*******

Getting back to webcams, the reason the adverts read like this

1280x1024
30FPS

on two separate lines, is to hide the fact that the camera
actually does 640x480 @ 30FPS and 1280x1024 @ 5FPS. By
putting the FPS and the resolution on separate lines, they
seek to deceive you (the two lines have nothing to do with
one another). And... they're largely successful at this scam.

I'll bet. It would have fooled me before I read this.
The only people who don't know this by now, are the ones
who've never bought a webcam and been screwed this way :-(
And the scam only really became apparent, when the camera
was used under Linux, and all the available options were
assembled into a list for viewing. The Windows interface
never made this info visible in tabular form. Looking at
it in Linux was an "eye opener".

I've had plans for more than 10 years to install Linux. I'm still
planning to.
 
P

Paul

micky said:
Let me tell you about the driver. I coudln't find one on the CD, in
windows, and I looked all over the web. But eventually I looked and
found the CD for the camera.. Apparently it came on the CD, because
the directory was named Drivers, and there were subdirs for W98, 2000,
and XP (I think each had the very same file.

So I installed it, but when I plugged in the camera, it said Hardware
Found, and it still wanted the hardware installed. I looked on the PC
where .inf files could be found and it didnt' like any of them. So I
Searched the PC using Search, and it found a few more inf files
including one that came from a zip file I had dl'd when looking for the
driver.

I pointed to that and it worked and it told me to restart the computer
and the camera worked.

Isn't it unusual for some of the software to come on the CD but not all
of it?

Cheap cameras come from skilled and gifted manufacturers.
Anything is possible on the CD, including putting
the wrong CD in the box with the camera :)

Paul
 
M

micky

Cheap cameras come from skilled and gifted manufacturers.
Anything is possible on the CD, including putting
the wrong CD in the box with the camera :)

Good point. I should be happy I got the right CD, because the stuff on
the CD I found nowhere.


Oh, the software seems to think it's a SoC camera, whatever that means.
Sons of Columbus? Silicon-oxide Carbon? Some old Camera.

Society of Operating Cameramen, the original name for the Society of
Camera Operators,, (Probably changed the name because some girls got
jobs opereating the cameras.)

System on a chip? A real possibility, but wikip says No. . " an
integrated circuit (IC) that integrates all components of a computer or
other electronic system into a single chip" A camera would't take more
than one chip generally anyhow, iiuc.
 
P

Paul

micky said:
Good point. I should be happy I got the right CD, because the stuff on
the CD I found nowhere.


Oh, the software seems to think it's a SoC camera, whatever that means.
Sons of Columbus? Silicon-oxide Carbon? Some old Camera.

Society of Operating Cameramen, the original name for the Society of
Camera Operators,, (Probably changed the name because some girls got
jobs opereating the cameras.)

System on a chip? A real possibility, but wikip says No. . " an
integrated circuit (IC) that integrates all components of a computer or
other electronic system into a single chip" A camera would't take more
than one chip generally anyhow, iiuc.

Cameras are typically two chips. The sensor is
separate from the controller.

At least, that would be an assumption for a CCD
sensor and a CMOS controller.

Sensors are regularly CMOS now, so it does ask the
question of whether the sensor array and the controller
could be on the same silicon die, without a penalty on
the sensor properties.

And I wouldn't call it a SoC, unless a processor was
involved or something. Otherwise, it's just a single
chip with two functions on it.

Generally, sensor people don't want to design the USB
portion. Because they're sensor people, and excel at
sensor layouts, maximizing exposed portions of pixels
and so on. It would be unlike such a company, to hire
pure digital people to do a controller, implement UVC
class, or whatever.

And a search engine isn't digging up any evolutionary
evidence. But that's search engines for you. You have
to use exactly the right terms, or you'll get nothing
but garbage results returned.

Paul
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top