Page numbering problem (Word 2000)

[charles thiesen]

In a long (140 p) and conplex document I've numbered pages in the footers
according to chapters: 2-1, 2-1, etc. In the later sections of the document
this isn't working correctly. With appropriate breaks and chapter headings
that worked for most of the document, the first page in a new chapter's
footer gives the continuing page number for the previous chapter. Pages
will go 15-12, 15-13, 16-14, 16-2.

I'm pretty sure I've done all the selections correctly. Anyone ever
experience this? Is there a fix? Does Word 2003 do any better?

(The workaround of manually numbering the pages creates problems in the
TOC, Index, and cross references.)

Thanks for any help,
- charles

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Make sure that "Start at 1" is set in Format Page Number for those sections.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[charles]

Thanks for the swift response.

I've triple checked that. It is.
- charles

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Are there "hidden" sections in the middle of pages? For example, where you
change the number of columns?

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[charles]

I insert section breaks in the middle of pages so I can have unique headers
from one page to another. Not every page, but often.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Instead of inserting section breaks "in the middle of pages," use Next Page
breaks. This will make it much easier to access the correct header/footer.
Also, if the header reflects content on the page, you may be able to use a
StyleRef field, which will make a section break unnecessary; see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/StyleRef.htm.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[charles]

Thanks (for your continuing attention to this and your swift replies.) The
problem with using next page breaks is that this is a long changing
document. If I have to hard code fifty or sixty page breaks whenever the
document grows, I'm sort of defeating the purpose of having a powerful word
processor like Word.

I will take a look at your styleRef suggestion, though.

thanks again,
- charles

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Section breaks should be avoided wherever possible, as should manual page
breaks, as they are a recipe for disaster when a document is still being
edited. Neither should be inserted until editing is complete.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[charles thiesen]

Section breaks should be avoided wherever possible, as should manual page
breaks, as they are a recipe for disaster when a document is still being
edited. Neither should be inserted until editing is complete.

That leaves me with a problem. This is a technical manual for software that
is continually improved. We need to be able to replace sections as the
software changes. So, the manual is done, I've inserted the section breaks
(and having done so at the end of this version still face that disaster).
And now it seems I'll have more problems down the road as I need to make
changes.

This sounds a lot more like a bug than a feature. Should MicroSoft be
documenting features that become recipes for disaster even when used as
directed?

Sorry. I'm not venting my spleen at you. I really appreciate your help.
It's just frustrating to rely on something that one expects to behave as
advertised.

thanks again,
- charles

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

When used properly, section breaks shouldn't cause problems. Because so many
users don't understand sections, section formatting, section breaks, or the
various ways to use headers and footers, it's generally easier for novices
to avoid section breaks as much as possible.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[charles thiesen]

When used properly, section breaks shouldn't cause problems. Because
so many users don't understand sections, section formatting, section
breaks, or the various ways to use headers and footers, it's generally
easier for novices to avoid section breaks as much as possible.

I use Word professionally and don't consider myself a novice. (I'm not
insulted, but I thought you should know.) Although I haven't attempted
this much with section breaks before, I use them regularly to control
changes in headers and footers.

My use this time, although extensive, hardly seems that difficult. As
each chapter sub heading changes, I change the navigation header in the
left page header. This means I need a new section every other page or so.
On average I'd guess I have a section break every three pages. This
worked fine without a problem.

At new chapters I want Word to automatically change the page number in
the footer to reflect the chapter number 1-1, 1-2, 2-1, 2-2, etc. I've
done this many times with no problem. I'm also changing the chapter title
in the same footer, but it's already a new section, so that shouldn't be
a problem.

This time, though, I have the problem that I described to you.

Again, I appreciate your swift replies.

Thanks very much,
- charles

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I've lost track of the described problem (and, since you've snipped the
quoted text, I can't easily retrace it), but as a general rule, even if you
require section breaks between chapters for other reasons (in order to have
a different first page, for example), you don't usually need to unlink the
headers and footers just to change the chapter title or page numbering. You
can use a StyleRef field in the header to pick up the chapter title, and the
chapter number in the page number should be achieved using the method
described at http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/ChapterNumber.htm.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[charles]

I've lost track of the described problem (and, since you've snipped
the quoted text, I can't easily retrace it), but as a general rule,
even if you require section breaks between chapters for other reasons
(in order to have a different first page, for example), you don't
usually need to unlink the headers and footers just to change the
chapter title or page numbering. You can use a StyleRef field in the
header to pick up the chapter title, and the chapter number in the
page number should be achieved using the method described at
http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/ChapterNumber.htm.

Apparently my news software snips earlier text. I've collected it all and
pasted the entire conversation in below.

For what I'm trying to do (use different levels of headings referenced in
even headers in a complex way) I do seem to need those regular continuous
breaks. I don't see why that should be a problem.

But now my problem is worse. I just upgraded to Office 2003 thinking this
problem might have been solved, but it has made things much worse. I'm only
beginning to assess the damage, but many footers that worked fine before
are now impossible to set correctly.

If I have the patience, I'll try to describe the problem clearly after a
little more work. I'm afraid I may need to hard code page numbers. I'm
really upset at the moment.

- charles


In a long (140 p) and conplex document I've numbered pages in the footers
according to chapters: 2-1, 2-1, etc. In the later sections of the document
this isn't working correctly. With appropriate breaks and chapter headings
that worked for most of the document, the first page in a new chapter's
footer gives the continuing page number for the previous chapter. Pages
will go 15-12, 15-13, 16-14, 16-2.

I'm pretty sure I've done all the selections correctly. Anyone ever
experience this? Is there a fix? Does Word 2003 do any better?

(The workaround of manually numbering the pages creates problems in the
TOC, Index, and cross references.)

Thanks for any help,
- charles

Make sure that "Start at 1" is set in Format Page Number for those
sections.

I've triple checked that. It is.
- charles

Are there "hidden" sections in the middle of pages? For example, where
you change the number of columns?

I insert section breaks in the middle of pages so I can have unique headers
from one page to another. Not every page, but often.

Instead of inserting section breaks "in the middle of pages," use Next
Page breaks. This will make it much easier to access the correct
header/footer. Also, if the header reflects content on the page, you
may be able to use a StyleRef field, which will make a section break
unnecessary; see http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/StyleRef.htm.

Thanks (for your continuing attention to this and your swift replies.) The
problem with using next page breaks is that this is a long changing
document. If I have to hard code fifty or sixty page breaks whenever the
document grows, I'm sort of defeating the purpose of having a powerful word
processor like Word.

I will take a look at your styleRef suggestion, though.

thanks again,
- charles

Section breaks should be avoided wherever possible, as should manual page
breaks, as they are a recipe for disaster when a document is still being
edited. Neither should be inserted until editing is complete.

That leaves me with a problem. This is a technical manual for software that
is continually improved. We need to be able to replace sections as the
software changes. So, the manual is done, I've inserted the section breaks
(and having done so at the end of this version still face that disaster).
And now it seems I'll have more problems down the road as I need to make
changes.

This sounds a lot more like a bug than a feature. Should MicroSoft be
documenting features that become recipes for disaster even when used as
directed?

Sorry. I'm not venting my spleen at you. I really appreciate your help.
It's just frustrating to rely on something that one expects to behave as
advertised.

thanks again,
- charles

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Ah, your problem was with using Continuous breaks instead of Next Page. I
can see how that would cause problems.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[charles]

I'm actually laughing. Do you mean I can't do what I'm trying to do?

If that's the case, will StyleRef let me create headers that include two
levels of headings - the most recent, say, of Heading one and two?

And, further, can I suppress the header on blank pages (inserted to keep
my next chapter start on the right side of a spread)?

thanks,
- charles

Ah, your problem was with using Continuous breaks instead of Next Page. I
can see how that would cause problems.

Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I think you can do everything you want with the right kind of section breaks
(Odd Page) and StyleRef fields.

If you separate chapters with Odd Page section breaks, every chapter will
start on a recto (right-hand) page, and a completely blank even page will be
inserted when needed. Restarting numbering should not be an issue provided
you start with 1 or another odd number (Word won't let you put an even
number on a recto page). There is a problem with the SectionPages field in
such sections, since Word unfortunately counts the blank page as the first
page in the new section instead of the last of the old (internally logical,
since it does follow the section break, but not at all satisfactory to most
users).

If you use "Different first page" as well as "Different odd and even," you
can have up to three different headers and footers in any section (see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm).

I think you should probably be able to get the headings you want in the
headers using the StyleRef field; see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/StyleRef.htm.

All of the above is, I think, what I have been saying from the beginning.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[charles]

I think you can do everything you want with the right kind of section
breaks (Odd Page) and StyleRef fields.

If you separate chapters with Odd Page section breaks, every chapter
will start on a recto (right-hand) page, and a completely blank even
page will be inserted when needed. Restarting numbering should not be
an issue provided you start with 1 or another odd number (Word won't
let you put an even number on a recto page). There is a problem with
the SectionPages field in such sections, since Word unfortunately
counts the blank page as the first page in the new section instead of
the last of the old (internally logical, since it does follow the
section break, but not at all satisfactory to most users).

If you use "Different first page" as well as "Different odd and even,"
you can have up to three different headers and footers in any section
(see http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm).

I think you should probably be able to get the headings you want in
the headers using the StyleRef field; see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/StyleRef.htm.

All of the above is, I think, what I have been saying from the
beginning.

Unfortunately not what I've been hearing, but, hey, my mother claimed to
find potatoes grwoing in my ears when she washed them, so they may have
needed a little gardening. Or maybe I should pay better attention.

In any case, thanks for persisting. I'll see if I can put this all
together and get my document done for my deadline tomorrow. If not,
you'll know, because I'll be begging for more help.

thanks,
- charles

 

[charles]

Some people are just "hard of listening." <g>

Suzanne, you are a goddess! You saved my life, or maybe just my career, or
really maybe just this project, but whatever it was you saved, thanks.

I'd ask for your hand, but I assume you need it for typing.

The StyleRef stuff is terrifically useful, but it was forcing odd page
breaks that fixed most of the problems.

Thanks again,
- charles