P4P800 - SATA vs. IDE Raid 0/1

[wheel]

I am putting together a new P4P800 Deluxe system, and bought a WD Raptor
SATA disk that runs at 10,000 rpm. I had no idea that this motherboard
supports 0/1 Raid on IDE disks. So I'm wondering, which is the best
combination of speed/coolness/quietness, a single SATA 10,000 rpm disk
or two IDE disks in Raid 0/1? The only reason I got the Raptor was to
get the maximum speed out of it (obviously) but it's probably hotter and
louder that two nice calm 7200 rpm IDE disks. If a 0/1 raid config is
both faster and safer than the Raptor, I might return it.

 

[Tim]

Wheel,

IMHO:

Stick with the raptor - you won't be disappointed. They are largely quiet,
fast, and as far as I know reliable.

IDE Raid 0 - stripe - will give you a performance boost compared to non raid
IDE, but you double the probability of loosing *everything* on your drives
if *either* fails. Raid 0 is excellent for performance...

IDE Raid 1 - mirror - will increase the reliabality over a standard drive x
2. They don't guard against naff idiots that delete files, software that
goes wonky and stuffs everything, but whatever is written to them is
mirrored. Raid 1 is excellent for data integrity. You get - apparently - a
marginal drop in performance over a single drive... Need a bench mark to
prove it.

RAID 10 is both the above at the same time - also may be RAID 01. It
requires 4 drives minimum although some controllers can split a physical
disc some how and you get RAID 10 but half the disc space.

The difference in noise level between a raptor and a modern quiet IDE is
insignificant when idle. The raptors make a slight rattle when they seek,
but it is still reasonably quiet.

Stick as you are for your system volume is my advice.

- Tim

 

[Leythos]

I am putting together a new P4P800 Deluxe system, and bought a WD Raptor
SATA disk that runs at 10,000 rpm. I had no idea that this motherboard
supports 0/1 Raid on IDE disks. So I'm wondering, which is the best
combination of speed/coolness/quietness, a single SATA 10,000 rpm disk
or two IDE disks in Raid 0/1? The only reason I got the Raptor was to
get the maximum speed out of it (obviously) but it's probably hotter and
louder that two nice calm 7200 rpm IDE disks. If a 0/1 raid config is
both faster and safer than the Raptor, I might return it.

RAID 0 - very fast for writes and reads. If you loose 1 drive you loose
everything. Only good if you do RAID 0 + 1 if you care about your data.

RAID 1 - very fast reads, about the same write performance as normal
non-raid. Very good reliability - if you loose either drive you don't
loose anything, you can replace the defective drive and rebuild it on
the fly in most cases.

RAID 0 + 1 - the benefits of both, but twice the wasted space.

 

[Courseyauto]

RAID 0 - very fast for writes and reads. If you loose 1 drive you loose
everything. Only good if you do RAID 0 + 1 if you care about your data.

Even with a single drive,if you loose it you loose everything. Just because
you have 2 drives in your system that doesn't mean you stand a better chance to
loose everthing, most people have more than 2 drives in their system and dont
back up so they loose everthing if a drive fails. Failure with the newer
drives is pretty slim now a days. DOUG

 

[Leythos]

RAID 0 - very fast for writes and reads. If you loose 1 drive you loose
everything. Only good if you do RAID 0 + 1 if you care about your data.


Even with a single drive,if you loose it you loose everything. Just because
you have 2 drives in your system that doesn't mean you stand a better chance to
loose everthing, most people have more than 2 drives in their system and dont
back up so they loose everthing if a drive fails. Failure with the newer
drives is pretty slim now a days. DOUG

The discussion was concerning RAID and not users that install two drives
in a NON-RAID configuration, so your statement is only partially
correct.

If you install two drives in a RAID 1 configuration you can still work
without data loss if you loose one drive.

In RAID 0, if you loose either drive you loose everything - you have
twice the risk for about 30% increase in performance.

As for experience - I can assure you that Dual Drives in a RAID 1
configuration has saved my arse more than once, and on my servers I
always do a RAID 1 for the OS drives.

As for failure, it's more common with the newer drives, esp. the IDE
ones. I've seen more than 20 IDE 60+ GB drives fail in the last year,
and less than 1 40GB or smaller in the same time frame.

I just bought two SATA 250 GB drives for a small server - I'm betting on
failure, so I configured them with hardware RAID 1.

 

[Roger Hamlett]

RAID 0 - very fast for writes and reads. If you loose 1 drive you loose
everything. Only good if you do RAID 0 + 1 if you care about your data.


Even with a single drive,if you loose it you loose everything. Just because
you have 2 drives in your system that doesn't mean you stand a better chance to
loose everthing, most people have more than 2 drives in their system and dont
back up so they loose everthing if a drive fails. Failure with the newer
drives is pretty slim now a days. DOUG

Actually, if the failure rate of drives is constant, having two drives, does
increase the probability of a failure, compared to one (doubles it).
The failure rates of drives (for 'normal' models), reached a 'low', perhaps
three or four years ago, and has been rising again recently. Manufacturers
have been cutting the prices so hard, that quality has declined... :-(

Best Wishes

 

[Courseyauto]

The discussion was concerning RAID and not users that install two drives
in a NON-RAID configuration, so your statement is only partially
correct.

If you install two drives in a RAID 1 configuration you can still work
without data loss if you loose one drive.

In RAID 0, if you loose either drive you loose everything - you have
twice the risk for about 30% increase in performance.

As for experience - I can assure you that Dual Drives in a RAID 1
configuration has saved my arse more than once, and on my servers I
always do a RAID 1 for the OS drives.

As for failure, it's more common with the newer drives, esp. the IDE
ones. I've seen more than 20 IDE 60+ GB drives fail in the last year,
and less than 1 40GB or smaller in the same time frame.

I just bought two SATA 250 GB drives for a small server - I'm betting on
failure, so I configured them with hardware RAID 1.


Yes i know it's about raid, i use raid O on both my computers, I have bought
over 15 drives in the past 3 year and not a single one has failed.
If you only have one drive and it goes bad you loose everything
if you dont have it backed up.
If you use raid O and back up you wont loose anything, if
you use a single drive you have to back up. either way you have to back up
raid O or a single drive. DOUG

 

[wheel]

Tim thanks... I think then that I will take your advice. Raptor it is.
Simpler at this point for me too.

 

[Leythos]

Yes i know it's about raid, i use raid O on both my computers, I have bought
over 15 drives in the past 3 year and not a single one has failed.
If you only have one drive and it goes bad you loose everything
if you dont have it backed up.
If you use raid O and back up you wont loose anything, if
you use a single drive you have to back up. either way you have to back up
raid O or a single drive. DOUG

Doug, I don't want to start a pissing battle here, but your statement
didn't add anything to the thread. Everyone already knows if you have a
single drive and don't back it up you loose everything. What was
informational is what benefit/drawbacks the different levels of RAID has
on performance and reliability of data.

Most non-technical types thing of RAID as something that prevents data
loss, but it's not true in all flavors and should be noted when talking
about RAID 0. Since RAID 0 does not provide any redundancy, and since we
were talking about two physical drives, we're talking about double the
chance for a total failure of the array.

Not everyone experiences failure, but since I purchase about 1 million
in workstations and servers every year I can assure you that IDE drives
fail frequently, and the batch made in the last 18 months seems to be
worse than those prior - now you know why most vendor have switched from
a 3 or 5 year warranty to a 1 year warranty.

 

[Tim]

I'll repeat what I said for those that missed the point:

RAID 0: with 2 drives you *Double* the probability of loss of *everything*
on *both* discs.
Double probability, Everything Both OK?

With the current apparent (from experience) failure rate of 1 year warrantee
IDE drives, in RAID 0 you are either a) asking for trouble, b) living in
hope, or c) only placing temporary files on your RAID 0 and keeping data /
system elsewhere.

Now, if you have RAID 0 on 2 x 80GB IDE, how long does it take to fix the
failure and do the restore in the middle of the day? IE buy a new drive,
decide if you are going to keep the one good old one, install it, format it,
then restore the data, get back to work.

If you earn money off your computer and you lost data then you have lost
money.
OK, so money isn't everything...

- Tim

 

[Jake]

the info here is helping me understand something i never really understood.
Raid period.
So here is my question. I have a fairly recent install on a SATA 120gb
drive. All games loaded and all working well. In fact everything is great. i
would love to have some redundency at this point.
What is (and talk slow) my best solution.
I obviously need another 120gb drive. You guys fill in the rest if you dont
mind.

I'll repeat what I said for those that missed the point:

RAID 0: with 2 drives you *Double* the probability of loss of *everything*
on *both* discs.
Double probability, Everything Both OK?

With the current apparent (from experience) failure rate of 1 year warrantee
IDE drives, in RAID 0 you are either a) asking for trouble, b) living in
hope, or c) only placing temporary files on your RAID 0 and keeping data /
system elsewhere.

Now, if you have RAID 0 on 2 x 80GB IDE, how long does it take to fix the
failure and do the restore in the middle of the day? IE buy a new drive,
decide if you are going to keep the one good old one, install it, format it,
then restore the data, get back to work.

If you earn money off your computer and you lost data then you have lost
money.
OK, so money isn't everything...

- Tim

 

[Leythos]

the info here is helping me understand something i never really understood.
Raid period.
So here is my question. I have a fairly recent install on a SATA 120gb
drive. All games loaded and all working well. In fact everything is great. i
would love to have some redundency at this point.
What is (and talk slow) my best solution.
I obviously need another 120gb drive. You guys fill in the rest if you dont
mind.

Your best solution is really two parts:

1) To maintain your computer in working order should your hard drive
fail, you should install a second drive and RAID 1 (Mirror) everything
on it.

2) Install a Tape Backup system and backup the data you feel you need to
maintain. a 120GB tape drive is NOT cheap, but RAID 1 is cheap (about
$130 for a drive).

If you can't do tape, then get a DVD-/+RW drive and a bunch of DVD+RW
disks and make backups to DVD that you can overwrite as needed.

A backup will allow you to restore files that you accidentally delete
and the mirrored drive will protect you in case of hardware failure.

 

[Tim]

What you need depends on what you do, what tools you use, how they use files
and so on.

The things that need to happen:

Know how to install your system from scratch - back to the state it is in
Now (whenever now is).
Have everything at hand, with backup CD's off site. Keep the process
documented if necessary.

Separate System, from Application Software, from Data. Makes it easier to
backup data you create.

Know what files need to be backed up by each application system you use -
this includes freebees such as outlook.

Now, ask yourself some questions like:

If my computer was stolen - along with all media in my office / home, how
much time / effort etc would it take and so cost to get everything back?
Would I have copies of CD's off site or hidden to reinstall all software?
Software Keys? Installation Instructions? Would I have backup tapes or CD's
of data?

Next, ask yourself how you would go about getting back into action if the
PSU in your computer blew up and took the mobo, HDD's and all else with it?

Next, what about each single disc drive... Both drives in a RAID mirror can
fail "at the same time". Happened to a customer a few weeks ago.

To be realistic, if you lost a system at 9AM, don't expect it to be back up
and running before 5PM unless you are well prepared. How much does a days
work earn you?

Many people will be able to say something like: I can backup all my data
onto 1 rewritable CD everyday. I can tollerate 1 lost days work, and will be
able to get CD's for all Windows and Application software if the system gets
stolen. So I will back up to CD everyday...

Others - EG business - will require a more responsive attitude. But it is
difficult to restore the system in only a few hours unless you are prepared,
have the skill, have spares near by, have rehearsed the process...

So, mirrored discs is a good start.
And / Or, having a second disc drive and routinely doing disc to disc
backups every day and during the day if you go out.
And / Or writing those backups to CD / DVD if they will fit *every* day, or
to tape...

So, it is a balance between what it would cost you, what you are willing to
spend, and would you actually perceive that you need.

Remember, there are 1) B(*&)ds out there that will steal everything, 2)
everything man makes crumbles, 3) backups (tape & CD)can fail, 4) raid can
fail.... being prepared is the best defence. Don't rely on any one thing. If
you (are going to) get a tape drive take into consideration the amount of
time it will take to do a restore. Some will take 8 hours to restore a
system when it might take you 1 hour to reinstall windows, 1 hour to
reinstall applications, then 30 minutes to restore data from CD.

Keep it simple.

- Tim

the info here is helping me understand something i never really understood.
Raid period.
So here is my question. I have a fairly recent install on a SATA 120gb
drive. All games loaded and all working well. In fact everything is great. i
would love to have some redundency at this point.
What is (and talk slow) my best solution.
I obviously need another 120gb drive. You guys fill in the rest if you dont
mind.

 

[Eric]

I have to add to this. People, the word is "lose", not "loose." Loose is
the opposite of tight. Lose is the opposite of win. I assume your data
becomes lost (i.e, you LOSE your data) -- should a drive fail. I doubt your
data becomes less tight, i.e, loose -- if a drive fails.

It seems like no one knows how to spell lose anymore.

 

[Leythos]

I have to add to this. People, the word is "lose", not "loose." Loose is
the opposite of tight. Lose is the opposite of win. I assume your data
becomes lost (i.e, you LOSE your data) -- should a drive fail. I doubt your
data becomes less tight, i.e, loose -- if a drive fails.

It seems like no one knows how to spell lose anymore.

It got lost in the 16 hour days (15 of them back to back) where I start
typing what I see, but thanks for your great catch of our misspelling of
the word.

And I do know the difference between it's, its, know, now, etc.....

Now, what do you think makes the RAID 1 array fail; it's when the data
gets loose and the rotation force is enough to fling it off the sides of
the platters! The loose data causes a massive loss of data on the array
and it fails.