OT: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

[thanatoid]

in
<SNIP>

[Sorry, the brain comment was a reply to your other post.]

I don't have the patience to argue with someone who can't even
be bothered to read the full thread and attempt to comprehend
the arguments, so I'm not replying to the one where you repeat
stuff that has been said, rebutted, and re-stated and re-
rebutted by several other people.

I'll just say that based on empirical evidence, the only thing
that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper - disc
burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long enough -
well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but contrary to
everyone else in the world, you appear to believe they're
magical and indestructible, especially when they have a Google
stamp on them.

Did you know one of the things which helped Google to succeed as
they did was that they bought the cheapest HW possible and there
were many people whose job was to hot-swap HD's which failed -
and continue to fail - all the time?

 

[Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]]

LOL
Insults is a sure sign of losing a argument
And Google lost how much data?

My point exactly...
Tape = Dead!

later, Have a good day...
Russ

 

[Bill in Co.]

in
<SNIP>

I'll just say that based on empirical evidence,

Documented (peer reviewed) cites, please?

the only thing
that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper - disc
burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long enough -

Documented cites??? This is an unsubstantiated claim.

Actually, hard drives make a good backup, especially if they are external
drives which are only used as needed. They are both FAST and have HUGE
storage capabilities, unlike most any other backup media. CD's and DVDs
are too limited in capacity, and tapes take forever. And what makes you
think magnetic tapes last longer than magnetic disks? How many old reel to
reel magnetic audio tapes from the late 1940's do you have *that are still
in good condition*? (rhetorical)

well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but contrary to
everyone else in the world, you appear to believe they're
magical and indestructible, especially when they have a Google
stamp on them.

Nothing is indestructible, including paper. They ALL have lifetime issues.
Ever checked out the condition of books (i.e. paper) from, say, 1920? Good
luck on that one.

 

[HeyBub]

in
<SNIP>

[Sorry, the brain comment was a reply to your other post.]

I don't have the patience to argue with someone who can't even
be bothered to read the full thread and attempt to comprehend
the arguments, so I'm not replying to the one where you repeat
stuff that has been said, rebutted, and re-stated and re-
rebutted by several other people.

I'll just say that based on empirical evidence, the only thing
that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper - disc
burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long enough -
well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but contrary to
everyone else in the world, you appear to believe they're
magical and indestructible, especially when they have a Google
stamp on them.

Did you know one of the things which helped Google to succeed as
they did was that they bought the cheapest HW possible and there
were many people whose job was to hot-swap HD's which failed -
and continue to fail - all the time?

Heh! I worked for a company back in the 60's that warehoused their original
data acquisition tapes. They had over a quarter-million of them in a
environmentally-controlled warehouse. They also had a band of hippies
working in the warehouse whose job it was to keep the integrity of the tapes
pristine. They did this by routinely retensioning the tapes (essentially
rewinding them twice on special machines) and checking for microscopic
flaking of the oxide. When tape degeneration was found, the tape was copied
on to a virgin reel.

This was a never-ending - and expensive - endeavor. Certainly not record it
and forget it.

 

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Actually they predict CD's at 100 years
But then that's long enough

Russ

Who is "they"?

 

[JoeSpareBedroom]

You forgot to say "try not to drop the drives when handling
them".

No, I did not forget to mention that. Rather, there is no need to mention
that to any normal person, unless one has no life and gets thrills from
pointing out the blindingly obvious. All backup methods can be damaged,
neglected, used incorrectly, or otherwise made useless or less effective.


The OP would do well to read this and consider it as part of his backup
scheme:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2288745,00.asp

 

[thanatoid]

LOL
Insults is a sure sign of losing a argument
And Google lost how much data?

My point exactly...
Tape = Dead!

later, Have a good day...
Russ

You're a complete moron. I have time for somewhat dumb but open-
minded people, but not for hopeless cases convinced of their
superiority over everyone else. Have a nice life.

k, 0, Enter.

 

[thanatoid]

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <[email protected]>
wrote in
<SNIP>

I'll just say that based on empirical evidence,

Documented (peer reviewed) cites, please?

Read the complete sentence before asking stupid questions. (At
least you're not a top-poster.)

Documented cites??? This is an unsubstantiated claim.

Oh, so you have 100 year-old CD-R's that play better than a book
printed 100 years ago "reads"?

Actually, hard drives make a good backup, especially if
they are external drives which are only used as needed.
They are both FAST and have HUGE storage capabilities,
unlike most any other backup media. CD's and DVDs are too
limited in capacity, and tapes take forever. And what
makes you think magnetic tapes last longer than magnetic
disks? How many old reel to reel magnetic audio tapes
from the late 1940's do you have *that are still in good
condition*? (rhetorical)

I don't but many people involved in archiving the past do. They
ARE putting them into digital formats but they are not throwing
the originals out. Ever been to a museum?

Nothing is indestructible, including paper.

I never said paper was indestructible. You can destroy anything
if you want.

They ALL have
lifetime issues. Ever checked out the condition of books
(i.e. paper) from, say, 1920? Good luck on that one.

I have quite a few books from the XIXth century and even more
from before WWII and they are just fine. Go to a library or an
antiquarian, you may see some even better examples.

 

[thanatoid]

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <[email protected]>
wrote in message

Actually they predict CD's at 100 years
But then that's long enough

Russ

Who is "they"?

More to the point, which one of us will be there to find out if
"they" were right?

 

[thanatoid]

No, I did not forget to mention that. Rather, there is no
need to mention that to any normal person, unless one has
no life

I don't.

and gets thrills from pointing out the blindingly
obvious.

It does not appear all that blindingly obvious to many people in
this thread.

All backup methods can be damaged, neglected, used
incorrectly, or otherwise made useless or less effective.

Except for Google's hard drives, I hear.

The OP would do well to read this and consider it as part
of his backup scheme:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2288745,00.asp

I'm not sure who is the OP anymore, but I read it anyway, since
I have no life.

Very nice article about which buttons to press to make the magic
happen and how much it costs to press them. Not a single word
about HOW the data is backed up and kept secure - the closest I
found, in the 10 or so pages I read (more than just the original
article) were "Backup versions are kept for 90 days" and "my
rather frustrating experiences when trying to restore large
batches of files to different machines".

Great. WHAT machines? What media? How many copies? And let's not
forget the Big Scare of This Century - what anti-terrorist
attack safeguards are in place? What if someone takes out the
industrial park where the company is located (or ALL the
industrial parks in the several parts of the country, or
countries), let alone the entire communications system currently
handling all our data? (Yes, I /know/ if that were to happen
we'd have bigger things to worry about than losing pictures of
Rover as a puppy.)

Etc.

 

[Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]]

I know Tape is your "god"
and in your eyes I've insulted your "god"
But you really need to find a new religion...
Everyone else has figured it out...

Calling me names because I embrace new technology?
Is kind of childish. But then that's your call...

I suppose since I believe in "GOD" that I'm a moron also?

Enjoy your thoughts...
and Take care.

However, The facts are the facts Tape is going the way of the Dodo Bird
Just like Microfiche, BetaMax, 8 Track Tapes and Laser Discs.
(Sorry you had to resort to insults for an argument however.)

I will no longer respond to insults, if you have some real arguments that
have some shred of data, I'll be more than willing to discuss, but when all
you do is insult me, then the discussion is over. (not that I care if you
insult me, it's not worth my time.)

Later,
Russ

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com

 

[Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]]

Bill He's Resorting to Insults
Just let him go...


--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <[email protected]>
wrote in
<SNIP>

I'll just say that based on empirical evidence,

Documented (peer reviewed) cites, please?

Read the complete sentence before asking stupid questions. (At
least you're not a top-poster.)

Documented cites??? This is an unsubstantiated claim.

Oh, so you have 100 year-old CD-R's that play better than a book
printed 100 years ago "reads"?

Actually, hard drives make a good backup, especially if
they are external drives which are only used as needed.
They are both FAST and have HUGE storage capabilities,
unlike most any other backup media. CD's and DVDs are too
limited in capacity, and tapes take forever. And what
makes you think magnetic tapes last longer than magnetic
disks? How many old reel to reel magnetic audio tapes
from the late 1940's do you have *that are still in good
condition*? (rhetorical)

I don't but many people involved in archiving the past do. They
ARE putting them into digital formats but they are not throwing
the originals out. Ever been to a museum?

Nothing is indestructible, including paper.

I never said paper was indestructible. You can destroy anything
if you want.

They ALL have
lifetime issues. Ever checked out the condition of books
(i.e. paper) from, say, 1920? Good luck on that one.

I have quite a few books from the XIXth century and even more
from before WWII and they are just fine. Go to a library or an
antiquarian, you may see some even better examples.

 

[Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]]

Hence my phrase "That's long enough"

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <[email protected]>
wrote in message

Actually they predict CD's at 100 years
But then that's long enough

Russ

Who is "they"?

More to the point, which one of us will be there to find out if
"they" were right?

 

[ANONYMOUS]

I use external (USB version) hard disk and my Norton Ghost 15 (recently
upgraded from Norton Ghost 14) is doing a good job. You can back up
your entire system every quarter and your documents everyday. These
things are done automatically in the background and you won't even
notice it.

hth

 

[sgopus]

Same way light bulbs fail just when you turn them on.

how does a hard drive fail sitting on a shelf?

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com

You forgot to say "try not to drop the drives when handling
them".

I can NOT believe how many people have fallen for the external
HD rip off (a $20 drive in a $3 box selling for $100) the ONLY
reason for which is the fact that NO money is to be made on
CD/DVD media and burners any more, and tape backups have always
been too expensive for personal use.

(Once HD's got bigger than 8.4 GB, anyway - I still have a
working Colorado tape drive, but it only stores about 250MB per
cartridge, makes a most annoying sound, and takes forever - but
OTOH I have tapes from the late 90's which are still just
fine...)

"Since hard drives are mechanical devices, they will all
eventually fail. While some may not fail prematurely, many hard
drives simply fail because of worn out parts. Many hard drive
manufacturers include a Mean Time Between Failures figure on
product packaging or in promotional literature. These are
calculated by constantly running samples of the drive for a
short amount of time, analyzing the resultant wear and tear upon
the physical components of the drive, and extrapolating to
provide a reasonable estimate of its lifespan. Since this fails
to account for phenomena such as the aforementioned head crash,
external trauma (dropping or collision), power surges, and so
forth, the Mean Time Between Failures number is not generally
regarded as an accurate estimate of a drive's lifespan."
(Wikipedia)

Aside from the fact that ANYTHING can be destroyed if you really
want to do it (although try bending a CD-R and see just how easy
it is to make it crack in two***), top-quality brand name CD-
and DVD-R's burned with good software at slow speeds can not
mechanically fail and are quite long-lasting. They do
deteriorate over time, but if you make 2 copies and copy one of
them every 3 or so years, the data will probably outlive you.

Tape has also proven to be very dependable, but the cost of
high-capacity tape drives is prohibitive to most individuals -
however they are routinely used for backups of network data in
corporate environments.

***(OTOH, take a razor blade and make a few cuts in the printed
side of a CD-R and see what happens...)

 

[thanatoid]

Same way light bulbs fail just when you turn them on.

<SNIP>

Get it???? <SNIP>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway... Sigh...

There was a discussion about that a couple of years ago, in
24hour help I think. The 2 sides were arguing whether it is the
"burst" of full current that blows up a weakened filament or
whether it is just coincidental that we notice it more when it
happens the moment we turn a light on - sometimes producing a
short but interesting blue-ish color effect. Needless to say, it
went on for quite a while until every one just got bored, but no
agreement was ever reached, as usual.

It's like the "leave the CRT monitors on all the time or switch
them off when not in use?" thing.

 

[Bill in Co.]

<SNIP>

Get it???? <SNIP>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway... Sigh...

There was a discussion about that a couple of years ago, in
24hour help I think. The 2 sides were arguing whether it is the
"burst" of full current that blows up a weakened filament or

I indeed most certainly believe it IS! (speaking as an EE).
It's due to the sudden and large onrush (the filament resistance is very low
when it's cold, so the current surge is intially quite large, and there is a
sudden thermal expansion of the filament, naturally).

But obviously a light bulb left on all the time will also eventually burn
out too, however.

whether it is just coincidental that we notice it more when it
happens the moment we turn a light on

Well, it is also true that that's when we notice it the most. But that
doesn't negate #1 above.

Anyway, there is no concrete evidence that I'm aware that tape in tape drive
sitting on a shelf lasts longer than a magnetic disk in a disk drive does
when stored away on a shelf.

And, personally, I'd rather it be on a disk, actually, due to the inherent
problems with tape. Of course, I've had a bit of experience with tape over
all the decades, too (in audio), and have seen some of its "issues".

I still have a fondness for tape recorders, however, but mostly from a
nostalgic point of view. I have no fondness for wire recorders, however,
or engraved stone tablets, for that matter (for storage).

 

[Bill in Co.]

Oh yeah. The good ole, ad hom used as a last resort, trick.

Bill He's Resorting to Insults
Just let him go...


--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com

thanatoid wrote:
"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <[email protected]>
wrote in
<SNIP>

<snip>

I'll just say that based on empirical evidence,

Documented (peer reviewed) cites, please?

Read the complete sentence before asking stupid questions. (At
least you're not a top-poster.)

the only thing
that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper -
disc burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long
enough -

Documented cites??? This is an unsubstantiated claim.

Oh, so you have 100 year-old CD-R's that play better than a book
printed 100 years ago "reads"?

Actually, hard drives make a good backup, especially if
they are external drives which are only used as needed.
They are both FAST and have HUGE storage capabilities,
unlike most any other backup media. CD's and DVDs are too
limited in capacity, and tapes take forever. And what
makes you think magnetic tapes last longer than magnetic
disks? How many old reel to reel magnetic audio tapes
from the late 1940's do you have *that are still in good
condition*? (rhetorical)

I don't but many people involved in archiving the past do. They
ARE putting them into digital formats but they are not throwing
the originals out. Ever been to a museum?

well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but
contrary to everyone else in the world, you appear to
believe they're magical and indestructible, especially
when they have a Google stamp on them.

Nothing is indestructible, including paper.

I never said paper was indestructible. You can destroy anything
if you want.

They ALL have
lifetime issues. Ever checked out the condition of books
(i.e. paper) from, say, 1920? Good luck on that one.

I have quite a few books from the XIXth century and even more
from before WWII and they are just fine. Go to a library or an
antiquarian, you may see some even better examples.

 

[thanatoid]

thanatoid wrote:


I indeed most certainly believe it IS! (speaking as an EE).
It's due to the sudden and large onrush (the filament
resistance is very low when it's cold, so the current surge
is intially quite large, and there is a sudden thermal
expansion of the filament, naturally).

Yes, that is what I always thought. But OTHER engineers
disagreed.

But obviously a light bulb left on all the time will also
eventually burn out too, however.
Amen.


Well, it is also true that that's when we notice it the
most. But that doesn't negate #1 above.

Anyway, there is no concrete evidence that I'm aware that
tape in tape drive sitting on a shelf lasts longer than a
magnetic disk in a disk drive does when stored away on a
shelf.

Not IN a tape drive. You never leave /any/ media in the hardware
unless using it. Basics.

And, personally, I'd rather it be on a disk, actually, due
to the inherent problems with tape. Of course, I've had a
bit of experience with tape over all the decades, too (in
audio), and have seen some of its "issues".

Nothing is perfect, and ultimately, does anything even matter?
(Just a little thanatoidal comment...)

I still have a fondness for tape recorders, however, but
mostly from a nostalgic point of view.

A friend of mine recently bought two used Revox B77's. Those
were the days...

I have no fondness for wire recorders

That format always kind of freaked me out.

however, or engraved stone tablets, for
that matter (for storage).

Amen (so to speak).


--
There are only two classifications of disk drives: Broken drives
and those that will break later.
- Chuck Armstrong (This one I think, http://www.cleanreg.com/,
not the ball player. But who knows. I can't remember where I got
the quote. But it's true.)

 

[Bill in Co.]

Yes, that is what I always thought. But OTHER engineers
disagreed.

And I think most of us know from our own observations that, generally
speaking, the bulbs go out most frequently just when you turn them on.

Not IN a tape drive. You never leave /any/ media in the hardware
unless using it. Basics.

Right, my slipup there, lol. Tape stored outside of the drive, VS a
magnetic disk inside its drive.

But I still think the magnetic disk will last longer, due to the inherent
nature of the media and the playback mechanisms.

Nothing is perfect, and ultimately, does anything even matter?
(Just a little thanatoidal comment...)


A friend of mine recently bought two used Revox B77's. Those
were the days...

I have a Revox G36 (as I recall) (the old vacuum tube model) here which I
bought used a long time ago. Haven't used it in quite awhile, but keep it
for some of my tapes. They don't make them like they used to, that's for
sure.