Backup Utility - What's going on?

[Rhino]

Can anyone answer some questions about the backup utility for me?

I'm trying to do a proper backup of Windows XP Pro. I've got SP1 installed
and want to do a decent backup before installing SP2. I thought I'd use the
built-in Backup Utility but some very weird things are happening and I need
to understand why.

First, when I tried to do a backup of just the system state to my floppy
drive, the backup started fine. Unfortunately, it didn't tell me how many
floppies I'd need so I just got 10 ready. I fed the first floppy into the
drive and the status report in the Utility was displayed, showing an elapsed
time and a time remaining, as well some additional numbers that seemed to be
the number of bytes in the backup and the number of files in the backup,
elapsed and remaining. The numbers moved steadily and, before very long, the
time remaining on the backup was well over 4 hours and the number of bytes
remaining was over 400,000,000! The time remaining actually seemed to go
_UP_ (quickly, then more gradually) as I approached the end of the second
disk. At that point, I decided to cancel that backup and try a different
approach.

Does that sound remotely close to being reasonable numbers? I thought a
system state backup contained only a few small critical files and would be
done in a matter of minutes at most. Mind you, I've had this machine for
nearly 4 years without taking a backup - we built the machine in December
2001 and installed XP then - so maybe that is a factor. My hard drive is
only 80 GB and is nowhere near full.

Second, when I cancelled the system state backup and tried to make the
utility write it to my DVD burner, it demanded that I put a disk in drive
W:. There was already a blank disk in the burner but I thought it might be
having trouble reading it so I put a different blank disk in the burner. The
Backup utility still insisted I put a disc in the burner; for some reason,
it can't seem to see the discs in the burner even though they are brand new
ones that work fine with my Nero software.

How do I make the Backup utility use my DVD burner and recognize that a
blank disc is present? Also, why don't my logical hard drive partitions, C:,
D:, E; and F show up as possible destinations for the backup while my
removable drives, I: thru L: (which are used for writing SD cards, memory
sticks, etc.) show up just fine?

Lastly, if I want to use Nero to do a backup of the System state only, what
directories and files will I need to select for it to burn? 'System State'
doesn't seem to be a single directory but I'm darned if I know what
Microsoft considers part of the System state.

 

[CWatters]

Can anyone answer some questions about the backup utility for me?

I'm trying to do a proper backup of Windows XP Pro. I've got SP1 installed
and want to do a decent backup before installing SP2. I thought I'd use the
built-in Backup Utility but some very weird things are happening and I need
to understand why.

I'd encourage you to use a better program like Norton Ghost or one of the
many other good backup program.

 

[Plato]

I'm trying to do a proper backup of Windows XP Pro. I've got SP1 installed
and want to do a decent backup before installing SP2. I thought I'd use the
built-in Backup Utility but some very weird things are happening and I need
to understand why.

For starters, dont use floppy disks to backup xp.

 

[Bob Harris]

The backup program that comes with XP is a bit antiquated, and that is being
kind to it. It defaults to a floppy backup, which might have been
appropriate for NT, but is way too small for XP. It does not allow writing
directly to CD, let alone DVD. It does not support external hard drives.
It does support backing up to a second internal hard drive, or somehting
like a ZIP drive (not USB ZIP). In short, it is of limited value to most
users.

If you really want to backup XP, in case of virus, disk crash, or bad
install/uninstall, you need a non-Microsoft program, like Norton GHOST or
Acronis True Image. These programs are most often used to backup the entire
C:\ partition, or even the entrie hard drive (multiple partitions). The
latest version of both can write directly to external hard drives, which I
find very fast. In theory they can write directly to CDs or DVDs, but in
practice that is both slow and less reliable. Both support making "spanned
images" of a user-determined size. I often make images of size 650 Meg, so
that I can later copy them to CD. The copy-to-CD can be verified, and if
required re-done.

Try a Google search on "disk image" or "backup" for more info.

 

[Rhino]

The backup program that comes with XP is a bit antiquated, and that is being
kind to it. It defaults to a floppy backup, which might have been
appropriate for NT, but is way too small for XP. It does not allow writing
directly to CD, let alone DVD. It does not support external hard drives.
It does support backing up to a second internal hard drive, or somehting
like a ZIP drive (not USB ZIP). In short, it is of limited value to most
users.

I was beginning to suspect what you're saying but I guess I had too high an
opinion of Microsoft; I thought maybe there was a way to back up to CD or
DVD and I just had things configured incorrectly. But clearly, that is not
the case: the built-in backup is just so basic that it is of little use.
Surprising for 2005 but that's life....

If you really want to backup XP, in case of virus, disk crash, or bad
install/uninstall, you need a non-Microsoft program, like Norton GHOST or
Acronis True Image. These programs are most often used to backup the entire
C:\ partition, or even the entrie hard drive (multiple partitions). The
latest version of both can write directly to external hard drives, which I
find very fast. In theory they can write directly to CDs or DVDs, but in
practice that is both slow and less reliable. Both support making "spanned
images" of a user-determined size. I often make images of size 650 Meg, so
that I can later copy them to CD. The copy-to-CD can be verified, and if
required re-done.

Try a Google search on "disk image" or "backup" for more info.

Can you suggest anything that won't involve me spending money on either
software or hardware? I got Nero with my DVD burner and I have Roxio with my
CD burner; I know those can backup the entire hard drive straight to DVD or
CD. How do they rate as backup programs?

The thing that appealed to me about the backup utility in Windows was the
apparent ability to make incremental backups but I don't know if Roxio or
Nero can be persuaded to do those. Maybe I will have to buy one of the
programs you suggested in order to have that capability. Also, a backup is
not much good unless there is a straightforward way to restore the backup
when the PC tanks. I don't know if the Nero or Roxio backups are easily
restored, especially if I do incremental backups. I suppose I'll have to
find newsgroups that discuss those products before I can find that out....

Do you have any idea what files and directories actually get backed up by a
System State backup? That would certainly be useful to know! Even if I back
up nothing else, being able to recover the system state sounds like
something useful....

Rhino

 

[Kerry Brown]

NTBackup works fine with external drives. It will backup to any drive that
windows sees and can write to. What it will not do is span media other than
floppies and tapes. With shadow copy and ASR it can back up and restore
things that a lot of other backup programs can't. I do agree the interface
is antiquated.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;818903

Kerry

The backup program that comes with XP is a bit antiquated, and that is
being kind to it. It defaults to a floppy backup, which might have been
appropriate for NT, but is way too small for XP. It does not allow
writing directly to CD, let alone DVD. It does not support external hard
drives. It does support backing up to a second internal hard drive, or
somehting like a ZIP drive (not USB ZIP). In short, it is of limited
value to most users.

If you really want to backup XP, in case of virus, disk crash, or bad
install/uninstall, you need a non-Microsoft program, like Norton GHOST or
Acronis True Image. These programs are most often used to backup the
entire C:\ partition, or even the entrie hard drive (multiple partitions).
The latest version of both can write directly to external hard drives,
which I find very fast. In theory they can write directly to CDs or DVDs,
but in practice that is both slow and less reliable. Both support making
"spanned images" of a user-determined size. I often make images of size
650 Meg, so that I can later copy them to CD. The copy-to-CD can be
verified, and if required re-done.

Try a Google search on "disk image" or "backup" for more info.

 

[Rhino]

Forgive my ignorance but I have some followup questions:

1. The article you cited says that ASR is supported for various
configurations of XP but I'm not familiar with the terms they are using.
What is "RTM"? What is "slipstreamed"? What is "SP1A"? (I've heard of SP1
and SP2 but have never heard of SP1A). I have XP Pro with SP1 installed; I
am trying to take my first backup since the machine was built before
installing SP2, which has had some problems associated with it, as I
understand it. I want to be able to restore to my present state if SP2
messes me up.

2. You say that NTBackup will backup to any drive that Windows can see and
write to. Why then doesn't it give me drives C:, D:, :E, and :F (the logical
partitions of my hard drive) when it lists possible backup locations? Why
doesn't it list drive V: (my CD burner) or drive W: (my DVD burner)? The
only options it gives me are A: and my 4 removable drives, which are part of
a writer I have for creating Memory Sticks, SD cards and the like. I *might*
be able to get all of my critical data on a single DVD but NTBackup doesn't
seem to be giving me the option.

Rhino

NTBackup works fine with external drives. It will backup to any drive that
windows sees and can write to. What it will not do is span media other than
floppies and tapes. With shadow copy and ASR it can back up and restore
things that a lot of other backup programs can't. I do agree the interface
is antiquated.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;818903

Kerry

 

[Kerry Brown]

Forgive my ignorance but I have some followup questions:

1. The article you cited says that ASR is supported for various
configurations of XP but I'm not familiar with the terms they are using.
What is "RTM"? What is "slipstreamed"? What is "SP1A"? (I've heard of SP1
and SP2 but have never heard of SP1A). I have XP Pro with SP1 installed; I
am trying to take my first backup since the machine was built before
installing SP2, which has had some problems associated with it, as I
understand it. I want to be able to restore to my present state if SP2
messes me up.

Basically the table in the article means you must use a Windows CD that is
at the same service pack level as the Windows installed on your hard drive.
See the following for info on slipstreaming:

http://www.msfn.org/articles.php?action=show&showarticle=49

2. You say that NTBackup will backup to any drive that Windows can see and
write to. Why then doesn't it give me drives C:, D:, :E, and :F (the
logical
partitions of my hard drive) when it lists possible backup locations? Why
doesn't it list drive V: (my CD burner) or drive W: (my DVD burner)? The
only options it gives me are A: and my 4 removable drives, which are part
of
a writer I have for creating Memory Sticks, SD cards and the like. I
*might*
be able to get all of my critical data on a single DVD but NTBackup
doesn't
seem to be giving me the option.

Turn off the wizard. Click on the Backup tab. Click on the browse button.
Pick where you want to store the backup file. Windows can't write natively
to a DVD. You would have to save the file somewhere then burn it to a DVD.
It will backup to external hard drives, flash drives etc., anything that
Windows can write to natively. As was said earlier the interface is
antiquated and hard to use. NTBackup is not the best program if you are
using optical media. There is a driver at www.firestreamer.com which will
allow NTBackup to work with optical media. If you must use optical media I
recommend Novabackup for backups, or Acronis True Image or Norton Ghost for
imaging a drive.

In your case I recommend you look at purchasing an external hard drive. Some
of them come with software that will do what you want. Optical media is not
as convenient and quite error prone for backup purposes. It should be used
as a supplement for a different method. I set up customers with a second
hard drive, either internal or external for a main backup and then use CD or
DVD rewritable disks for a second backup that is done less often and kept
off site. This may sound like overkill for home use but it is not. I see
several computers a month that have failed hard drives, or something else
that causes the customer to lose all their digtal pictures, mp3's, emails or
whatever because they didn't have a backup system or had one they didn't
understand so didn't realise it wasn't working.

Kerry

 

[Rhino]

Basically the table in the article means you must use a Windows CD that is
at the same service pack level as the Windows installed on your hard drive.
See the following for info on slipstreaming:

http://www.msfn.org/articles.php?action=show&showarticle=49


Turn off the wizard. Click on the Backup tab. Click on the browse button.
Pick where you want to store the backup file. Windows can't write natively
to a DVD. You would have to save the file somewhere then burn it to a DVD.
It will backup to external hard drives, flash drives etc., anything that
Windows can write to natively. As was said earlier the interface is
antiquated and hard to use. NTBackup is not the best program if you are
using optical media. There is a driver at www.firestreamer.com which will
allow NTBackup to work with optical media. If you must use optical media I
recommend Novabackup for backups, or Acronis True Image or Norton Ghost for
imaging a drive.

Okay, I tried using the Backup utility without the wizards; I selected only
System State and found that I was finally able to write the backup to my
hard drive. (I have a single 80 GB hard drive with 4 logical drives, C: thru
F:, on it.) The size was around 400 MB and it only took a minute and a half,
not the 4+ hours (and hundreds of floppies) that a floppy backup would have
taken. Now that's more like it!

I don't have any optical drives and I'm not sure what I said that made you
think I have one. (The I: thru L: drives on my PC are for writing memory
sticks, SD cards, etc. for my PDA.)

In your case I recommend you look at purchasing an external hard drive. Some
of them come with software that will do what you want. Optical media is not
as convenient and quite error prone for backup purposes. It should be used
as a supplement for a different method. I set up customers with a second
hard drive, either internal or external for a main backup and then use CD or
DVD rewritable disks for a second backup that is done less often and kept
off site. This may sound like overkill for home use but it is not. I see
several computers a month that have failed hard drives, or something else
that causes the customer to lose all their digtal pictures, mp3's, emails or
whatever because they didn't have a backup system or had one they didn't
understand so didn't realise it wasn't working.

I appreciate the suggestion but I can't spare the money for external hard
drives or backup software right now and I'd rather not wait with making my
backup until I can afford those things. I already have a CD burner, DVD
burner and programs for burning both types of discs: do you really mean to
tell me that there's no way I can make a reasonable backp with all of those
facilities already at hand?

Rhino

 

[Kerry Brown]

Okay, I tried using the Backup utility without the wizards; I selected
only
System State and found that I was finally able to write the backup to my
hard drive. (I have a single 80 GB hard drive with 4 logical drives, C:
thru
F:, on it.) The size was around 400 MB and it only took a minute and a
half,
not the 4+ hours (and hundreds of floppies) that a floppy backup would
have
taken. Now that's more like it!

Backing up the system state is not backing up any data. It is just what it
says the "system state". This is only the registry and other settings. You
would not be able to recover your system from this. Here is a link to what
is included in system state:

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/...Windows/XP/all/reskit/en-us/prdg_dsm_eeos.asp

I don't have any optical drives and I'm not sure what I said that made you
think I have one. (The I: thru L: drives on my PC are for writing memory
sticks, SD cards, etc. for my PDA.)

Your CD and DVD are optical drives. They use light.

I appreciate the suggestion but I can't spare the money for external hard
drives or backup software right now and I'd rather not wait with making my
backup until I can afford those things. I already have a CD burner, DVD
burner and programs for burning both types of discs: do you really mean to
tell me that there's no way I can make a reasonable backp with all of
those
facilities already at hand?

You need at minimum a different backup program or some kind of media large
enough to hold the whole backup. Your best free alternative at this point is
to burn your data to DVD and be prepared to reinstall Windows and your
programs as part of the restore process.

Kerry