Now I Understand

B

Bluuuue Rajah

Everybody rightly criticizes Micro$tiff for selling a crappy OS, and
Linux is obviuosly better, if you have the time and the expertise to use
in it, but until this week I didn't understand exaclty why Windows is
such a POS.

When I had to uninstall the Google toolbar because Google installed an
update tht I didn't ask for, which overrode IE5's ctrl-f command, the
reason beame clear. Windows' install/uninstall method causes bugs to
accumulate, if programs are not ununstalled in precise the reverse order
of which they were installed.

The problem is that terrible method of saving old copies of system
files, like .ini files, as backups, to be restored when software is
uninstalled. So the more apps you uninstall, out of order, the buggier
your system becomes, until you finally have to reinstall the OS.

Linux apparently doesn't have anything resembling this problem, which
makes me wonder, how did the Linux designers (Torvald?) handle this
problem, and can we learn anything from their solution to help minimize
the problem with Windows?

Your thoughts?
 
R

Reverend Doctor Kanakambujam Thuvaradran

Ewewybody wightwy cwiticizes Micow$tiff fow sewwing a cwappy OS, and
Winux is obwiuoswy bettew, if you hawe th-th-the time and th-th-the
expewtise t-t-t-to use in it, but untiw th-th-this week I didn't
undewstand exacwty why Windows is such a POS.
When I had t-t-t-to uninstaww th-th-the Googwe toowbaw because Googwe
instawwed an update th-th-tht I didn't ask fow, which owewowde IE5's
ctww-f command, th-th-the weason beame cweaw. Windows'
instaww/uninstaww meth-th-thod causes bugs t-t-t-to accumuwate, if
powgwams awe not ununstawwed in pwecise th-th-the wewewse owdew of
which th-th-they wewe instawwed.
De powbwem is th-th-that tewwibwe meth-th-thod of sawing owd copies of
system fiwes, wike .ini fiwes, as backups, t-t-t-to be westowed when
softwawe is uninstawwed. So th-th-the mowe apps you uninstaww, out of
owdew, th-th-the buggiew youw system becomes, untiw you finawwy hawe
t-t-t-to weinstaww th-th-the OS.
 
S

Shenan Stanley

Bluuuue said:
Everybody rightly criticizes Micro$tiff for selling a crappy OS, and
Linux is obviuosly better, if you have the time and the expertise
to use in it, but until this week I didn't understand exaclty why
Windows is such a POS.

When I had to uninstall the Google toolbar because Google installed
an update tht I didn't ask for, which overrode IE5's ctrl-f
command, the reason beame clear. Windows' install/uninstall method
causes bugs to accumulate, if programs are not ununstalled in
precise the reverse order of which they were installed.

The problem is that terrible method of saving old copies of system
files, like .ini files, as backups, to be restored when software is
uninstalled. So the more apps you uninstall, out of order, the
buggier your system becomes, until you finally have to reinstall
the OS.

Linux apparently doesn't have anything resembling this problem,
which makes me wonder, how did the Linux designers (Torvald?)
handle this problem, and can we learn anything from their solution
to help minimize the problem with Windows?

Your thoughts?

I think you have made gross generalizations based off personal experience -
which are usually proven inaccurate (at best.)

I utilize many different operating systems (and flavors/versions of said
operating systems) and if there is a single OS that is not lacking in one or
more (mostly more after years of use on any given OS) ways, I have yet to
come across it. Many times - some of the 'problems' found could have been
avoided with experience and know-how on the part of the user - which is
acceptable in most cases because I don't believe someone whould 'hold my
hand' in everything I do. Also - many times - it is a 'personal' issue with
the OS - meaning it won't do something the end-user believes it *should* do.

As far as your gross generalizations - I have a system I have been running
since Windows XP was released. It has been through two different sets of
hardware, several hardware failures, many *MANY* installations and software
removals and is now finally running as a VirtualBox machine on top of my
Windows Vista and Windows Vista x64 Ultimate machines. I have *not* had to
'reinstall my OS' (assuming you mean a clean installation) nor did it ever
slow down in any way I did not expect (when you upgrade applications, seldom
do they actually utilize less resources than their prior versions...)

In my specific experience - Windows (XP, Vista and some prior versions to a
certain extent) are fairly stable operating systems that have given me
personally little trouble. I've thrown a lot at them - and my experience is
not limited to just the applications I utilize on a daily basis nor is my
experience limited to just one or two hardware configurations (I would put
myself in the thousands (possibly tens of thousands), easily, as far as how
many different hardware configurations I have had to deal with in the years
since Windows XP was first released alone.) I also pull from the experience
of those whose systems I have cleaned up from a mess or setup initially - in
that they seldom have the same trouble after a little configuration and a
little tutoring on how to properly utilize their system.

YMMV.
 
U

Uncle Al

Bluuuue Rajah wrote:
[snip]
When I had to uninstall the Google toolbar because Google installed an
update tht I didn't ask for, which overrode IE5's ctrl-f command,
[snip rest]

1) Firefox
2) idiot
 
P

Pennywise

That's nice, what are you going to run it on?
It's my understanding that no one makes hardware
for it anymore.

The Wikipedia article was posted for a purpose.
 
B

Benj

Everybody rightly criticizes Micro$tiff for selling a crappy OS, and
Linux is obviuosly better, if you have the time and the expertise to use
in it, but until this week I didn't understand exaclty why Windows is
such a POS.

Linux is NOT "obviously better". BOTH are POS!
There are TWO problems: The problem with Windoze is Bill Gates.
And the problem with Linux is programmers.
When I had to uninstall the Google toolbar because Google installed an
update tht I didn't ask for, which overrode IE5's ctrl-f command, the
reason beame clear. Windows' install/uninstall method causes bugs to
accumulate, if programs are not ununstalled in precise the reverse order
of which they were installed.

Here is the understanding in a nutshell.

1. Bill Gates (the smartest man in the universe) never even foresaw
the internet, Bill Gates thinks that HIS time is valuable, but YOURs
is not. Bill Thinks that if you use his software he "owns" your
machine.

2. Hence windoze is full of backdoors and other items which allows
Bill and his minions to enter into your machine at will, stomp around
in there, load software, run programs, examine your data, all without
your permission. Google toolbar is simply a pimple on the ass of
progress. All actions take forever wasting your (but not Bill's)
time. Ever ask yourself why in this day and age you should be waiting
15 minutes for a computer to "boot"? Hell, paper tape never took that
long! Why should it do that at all? Why should you have to wait for
ANY operation save the calculation of atomic bomb parameters? Shit.
That's a CRAY supercomputer sitting there on your damn desk! The
genius is that they managed to slow it down as much as they have!

3. Programmers are almost without exception lazy morons. They are so
caught up in details that they don't have time to ask "how would a
user interact with this program?" Nope. They grab a language, use all
the features built into that language as is with no regard to if they
suck or not. The "true test" in their view is not is this convenient
and easy for the user, but rather is there SOME way to do this
operation? Even if you have to push on walls to find guns and food, if
it does the job, it stays that way.

4. Programmers are so imbued with the worship of details they never
see the big picture. Hence, every job is done backwards from details
outward. And therefore when added to lazy, you end up with new
software being created by patching old software. This inspite of the
well-known rule that says that it always takes less time to write a
whole new program (and do it right) than to patch and modify an old
POS. Now you know what "built on NT 'technology'" means. It means our
heads are still up our lazy butts!

5. Commercial pressures add a final disaster to the mix encouraging
patching of old crap and releasing things before they are finished as
well as an emphasis on hype rather than functionality.

6. So is Vista the saviour of the world? All the sales people at my
micro-store told me they are "really excited" about Vista. Truth? Go
look at all the articles in the gaming mags telling how to strip Vista
off your machine and put XP back on. Feh.

7. OK, so is Linux the saviour of the world? Hardly. That OS is SO old
it has a beard. It's FAR too complex because it came from another era
of timeshare and terminals. Basically it's a monument to "patch
rather than write" rule. Typical Linux flake: First tells you you
don't have a certain kind of drive when booting up, but then waits 5
minutes looking for them (I presume just in case you installed one in
the last few seconds). Quote the Red Hat factory rep: "Yeah it's a
real bug but we're not going to fix it..." In other words we got
your money so bite me! Red Hat is dead so bite ME!

8. People, however ARE aware of these problems. A "save game" program
to restore you OS is an excellent investment. Too bad they seem to be
harder and harder to find and work less and less well. So what
happens when you go to the Logitech mouse site to add "full features"
to your cool wireless mouse and their "features" crash and lock the
whole OS? Obviously a "save game" is the answer. But that does NOT
answer why the morons who put together the OS known as Windoze were
allowed to sell that POS as if it were a real OS. It's not. though in
many ways it's somewhat better than some others out there (Linux).

9. So now that you understand the problem, just one question remains:
Is there at least ONE programmer out there with the ability at the
level to write a decent OS, with the time and motivation to start from
scratch, considering the way the USER interacts with it foremost, who
will respect the user's privacy and sovereignty over his own machine,
and who is willing to do all this without trying to kluge something
together from some shit that other high school students wrote in their
basement?

Well, IS THERE?
 
S

Shenan Stanley

<snipped>

Both operating systems suck, AmigaOS is and always been the best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga
That's nice, what are you going to run it on?
It's my understanding that no one makes hardware
for it anymore.

The Wikipedia article was posted for a purpose.
What....are....you....going....to....run....it....on?

Anything they want?
http://emulation.victoly.com/amiga/
(Emulators, virtual machines, etc)

On the hardware that may someday appear?
http://www.osnews.com/story/17748
(AmigaOS4 and AmigaOS5?!)
 
R

Rev Turd Fredericks

Shenan said:
I think you have made gross generalizations based off personal experience -
which are usually proven inaccurate (at best.)

I utilize many different operating systems (and flavors/versions of said
operating systems) and if there is a single OS that is not lacking in one or
more (mostly more after years of use on any given OS) ways, I have yet to
come across it. Many times - some of the 'problems' found could have been
avoided with experience and know-how on the part of the user - which is
acceptable in most cases because I don't believe someone whould 'hold my
hand' in everything I do. Also - many times - it is a 'personal' issue with
the OS - meaning it won't do something the end-user believes it *should* do.

As far as your gross generalizations - I have a system I have been running
since Windows XP was released. It has been through two different sets of
hardware, several hardware failures, many *MANY* installations and software
removals and is now finally running as a VirtualBox machine on top of my
Windows Vista and Windows Vista x64 Ultimate machines. I have *not* had to
'reinstall my OS' (assuming you mean a clean installation) nor did it ever
slow down in any way I did not expect (when you upgrade applications, seldom
do they actually utilize less resources than their prior versions...)

In my specific experience - Windows (XP, Vista and some prior versions to a
certain extent) are fairly stable operating systems that have given me
personally little trouble. I've thrown a lot at them - and my experience is
not limited to just the applications I utilize on a daily basis nor is my
experience limited to just one or two hardware configurations (I would put
myself in the thousands (possibly tens of thousands), easily, as far as how
many different hardware configurations I have had to deal with in the years
since Windows XP was first released alone.) I also pull from the experience
of those whose systems I have cleaned up from a mess or setup initially - in
that they seldom have the same trouble after a little configuration and a
little tutoring on how to properly utilize their system.

YMMV.
After your assertion that personal experience is "inaccurate (at best)",
your whole post has become a meaningless diatribe.
 
G

gabydewilde

Linux is NOT "obviously better".  BOTH are POS!
There are TWO problems: The problem with Windoze is Bill Gates.
And the problem with Linux is programmers.


Here is the understanding in a nutshell.

1. Bill Gates (the smartest man in the universe)

Ah, yes. The modern era Einstein has born.
never even foresaw
the internet,  Bill Gates thinks that HIS time is valuable, but YOURs
is not. Bill Thinks that if you use his software he "owns" your
machine.

2. Hence windoze is full of backdoors and other items which allows
Bill and his minions to enter into your machine at will, stomp around
in there, load software, run programs, examine your data, all without
your permission. Google toolbar is simply a pimple on the ass of
progress.  All actions take forever wasting your (but not Bill's)
time. Ever ask yourself why in this day and age you should be waiting
15 minutes for a computer to "boot"?  Hell, paper tape never took that
long! Why should it do that at all?  Why should you have to wait for
ANY operation save the calculation of atomic bomb parameters?  Shit.
That's a CRAY supercomputer sitting there on your damn desk!  The
genius is that they managed to slow it down as much as they have!

3. Programmers are almost without exception lazy morons. They are so
caught up in details that they don't have time to ask "how would a
user interact with this program?"  Nope. They grab a language, use all
the features built into that language as is with no regard to if they
suck or not. The "true test" in their view is not is this convenient
and easy for the user, but rather is there SOME way to do this
operation? Even if you have to push on walls to find guns and food, if
it does the job, it stays that way.

4. Programmers are so imbued with the worship of details they never
see the big picture. Hence, every job is done backwards from details
outward. And therefore when added to lazy, you end up with new
software being created by patching old software. This inspite of the
well-known rule that says that it always takes less time to write a
whole new program (and do it right) than to patch and modify an old
POS. Now you know what "built on NT 'technology'" means. It means our
heads are still up our lazy butts!

5. Commercial pressures add a final disaster to the mix encouraging
patching of old crap and releasing things before they are finished as
well as an emphasis on hype rather than functionality.

6. So is Vista the saviour of the world?  All the sales people at my
micro-store told me they are "really excited" about Vista.  Truth?  Go
look at all the articles in the gaming mags telling how to strip Vista
off your machine and put XP back on. Feh.

7. OK, so is Linux the saviour of the world? Hardly. That OS is SO old
it has a beard. It's FAR too complex because it came from another era
of timeshare and terminals.  Basically it's a monument to "patch
rather than write" rule. Typical Linux flake: First tells you you
don't have a certain kind of drive when booting up, but then waits 5
minutes looking for them (I presume just in case you installed one in
the last few seconds).  Quote the Red Hat factory rep: "Yeah it's a
real bug but we're not going to fix it..."   In other words we got
your money so bite me!  Red Hat is dead so bite ME!

8. People, however ARE aware of these problems.  A "save game" program
to restore you OS is an excellent investment.  Too bad they seem to be
harder and harder to find and work less and less well.  So what
happens when you go to the Logitech mouse site to add "full features"
to your cool wireless mouse and their "features" crash and lock the
whole OS? Obviously a "save game" is the answer. But that does NOT
answer why the morons who put together the OS known as Windoze were
allowed to sell that POS as if it were a real OS.  It's not. though in
many ways it's somewhat better than some others out there (Linux).

9. So now that you understand the problem, just one question remains:
Is there at least ONE programmer out there with the ability at the
level to write a decent OS, with the time and motivation to start from
scratch, considering the way the USER interacts with it foremost, who
will respect the user's privacy and sovereignty over his own machine,
and who is willing to do all this without trying to kluge something
together from some shit that other high school students wrote in their
basement?

Well, IS THERE?

Ask Jeff.
 
S

schoenfeld.one

[...]

The problem with windows is
[1] Management - constantly making wrong decisions, deliberately
breaking bridges in software/APIs for their "commercial advantage" and
the rest of the typical corporate idiocy. Microsoft Management is
filled with people who have
- never self-funded and run a profitable business on their own
- never produced a profitable consumerable in the free market

Features, functionality and robustness always come after marketing and
politics and this is a sign that the company is on its way out.

[2] User interface design needs to accomodate the entire spectrum of
computer users from idiots to experts, old to young, culture, race,
etc. As a result, the UI designed to fit everybody in reality fits
nobody. It is inefficient, etc.

[3] Backwards compatibility - rather than dismiss the old and start
new, windows always carries the bad design principles through into new
version to support older software. They could've taken a
virtualization path as Apple have done in their OS, but idiot
management led by idiot Balmer decided that would be too easy,
profitable and make too much sense for them, so they support the
archaic APIs and software concepts in newer versions XP/Vista, etc
(and it looks like Windows 7 will still carry the same design).

That being said, Linux is worse (much worse).
 
B

Bluuuue Rajah

I've been using Linux almost as long as I've been using Windows.

Linux is not immune from it's own problems...
and unless one is very familiar with Linux...the problems can
sometimes be harder to sort out.

That said, with a little bit of common sense, Windows should not
require a re-install.
I run mainly Win2k and XP and they have both been running 99% +
trouble free for *many* years.

You're living in a fantasy world. Everybody knows that Windows slowly
accumulates bugs. They've known almost from day one, when people
started griping about what a POS it was.
 

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