Newbie audio too low despite using 'zoom' mic. Options?

H

Howard J

We're recording from a former choir loft and getting inadequate audio only
on the PC-based recording. We're probably going to end up trying a digital
camcorder; presently we're recording audio via an inexpensive zoom mic
that's worked fine on our analog old camcorders (and we're recording video
via a USB [probably 1.1] which surprisingly is working well--we're recording
using the large option). Here's the loft location from an earlier thread:

I obtained a zoom mic and tested it using an analog camcorder (plugged into
the camcorder's external mic). It helped at least somewhat, and anyway the
tape's volume was fine when played in a normal VCR.

I next tried using the zoom mic with direct recording to MM2 (on a new large
hard drive, speed 7 somethings--basically, one of the fast ones<g>). When I
play it, with the PC's volume turned up high, the audio is barely audible.
(In the same computing session, I tested the audio by playing a WAV file.)

Shall I:
--Put in a different audio card? (This makes me hesitant, because I think I
have to uninstall the onboard audio to do that, and that means it might be
difficult to try to fall back.) We have available two new cards:
Mad Dog Prowler 4.1 DSP 4 channel PCI sound card

Mad Dog Predator 5.1 DSP 6 Channel PCI sound card

--Get a more expensive zoom mic?

--Not worry about it if we go with a digital camcorder instead of our
current zoommic/USBCamera combo? (The cameras we're thinking of will do
firewire but has no external mic port.)

--A combination of the above, or something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice, particularly soon<g>. Thanks!
 
J

John Kelly

Hi there,

Perhaps you have not realized this is the Windows XP Movie Maker newsgroup
and as such the very interesting questions/comments made are off topic.

I would love to know which newsgroup you thought you were in, would not
mind having a listen as my local church is this year celebrating 600yrs
with choirs and campanology.
 
H

Howard J

More questions/ideas:

The zoom mic has just one black band on its plug (or whatever we call the
part that gets plugged in). I noticed that the regular computer microphones
I have, for example a Labtec, have two black bands. I think that the zoom
mic is mono. Might the computer microphones be stereo, and if so, the sound
card be wanting stereo or at least be allocating only half of its capacity
to listening to the zoom mic?

The built-in sound on the PC has only three sound ports, while the Mad Dog
cards have four. Should we be trying to end up using a "line in" instead of
a mic? I think that the port I plugged the mic into was the only port in
which I succeeded when testing using the built-in application Sound
Recorder.

If when we record directly to the PC we were to use a digital camcorder that
has an external mic, and if we were to plug an external mic into it, would
there be any difference if we were to plug the zoom mic into the sound card
instead of into the camcorder? Will MM2 give us the option of choosing
between the computer's mic input and the digital camcorder? Thanks!





Howard J said:
We're recording from a former choir loft and getting inadequate audio only
on the PC-based recording. We're probably going to end up trying a digital
camcorder; presently we're recording audio via an inexpensive zoom mic
that's worked fine on our analog old camcorders (and we're recording video
via a USB [probably 1.1] which surprisingly is working well--we're recording
using the large option). Here's the loft location from an earlier thread:
(These

I obtained a zoom mic and tested it using an analog camcorder (plugged into
the camcorder's external mic). It helped at least somewhat, and anyway the
tape's volume was fine when played in a normal VCR.

I next tried using the zoom mic with direct recording to MM2 (on a new large
hard drive, speed 7 somethings--basically, one of the fast ones<g>). When I
play it, with the PC's volume turned up high, the audio is barely audible.
(In the same computing session, I tested the audio by playing a WAV file.)

Shall I:
--Put in a different audio card? (This makes me hesitant, because I think I
have to uninstall the onboard audio to do that, and that means it might be
difficult to try to fall back.) We have available two new cards:
Mad Dog Prowler 4.1 DSP 4 channel PCI sound card

Mad Dog Predator 5.1 DSP 6 Channel PCI sound card

--Get a more expensive zoom mic?

--Not worry about it if we go with a digital camcorder instead of our
current zoommic/USBCamera combo? (The cameras we're thinking of will do
firewire but has no external mic port.)

--A combination of the above, or something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice, particularly soon<g>. Thanks!
 
T

TofuTheGreat

Your zoom mic is mono. Two black bands is stereo.

You said that you plugged the mic into the PC and did a
straight record. If this is the case then you might also
want to check your PC's settings for incoming audio. It's
probably turned down to nothing but not muted.



Christopher
-----Original Message-----
More questions/ideas:

The zoom mic has just one black band on its plug (or whatever we call the
part that gets plugged in). I noticed that the regular computer microphones
I have, for example a Labtec, have two black bands. I think that the zoom
mic is mono. Might the computer microphones be stereo, and if so, the sound
card be wanting stereo or at least be allocating only half of its capacity
to listening to the zoom mic?

The built-in sound on the PC has only three sound ports, while the Mad Dog
cards have four. Should we be trying to end up using a "line in" instead of
a mic? I think that the port I plugged the mic into was the only port in
which I succeeded when testing using the built-in application Sound
Recorder.

If when we record directly to the PC we were to use a digital camcorder that
has an external mic, and if we were to plug an external mic into it, would
there be any difference if we were to plug the zoom mic into the sound card
instead of into the camcorder? Will MM2 give us the option of choosing
between the computer's mic input and the digital camcorder? Thanks!





Howard J said:
We're recording from a former choir loft and getting inadequate audio only
on the PC-based recording. We're probably going to end
up trying a
digital
camcorder; presently we're recording audio via an inexpensive zoom mic
that's worked fine on our analog old camcorders (and we're recording video
via a USB [probably 1.1] which surprisingly is working
well--we're
recording
using the large option). Here's the loft location from an earlier thread:
feet in front of, one
side of
other side.
(These
are

I obtained a zoom mic and tested it using an analog
camcorder (plugged
into
the camcorder's external mic). It helped at least
somewhat, and anyway
the
tape's volume was fine when played in a normal VCR.

I next tried using the zoom mic with direct recording to
MM2 (on a new
large
hard drive, speed 7 somethings--basically, one of the
 
H

Howard J

(Comments somewhat in-line. MM2 = MovieMaker2, both in the post to which
you replied and in this post.)


John Kelly said:
Hi there,

Perhaps you have not realized this is the Windows XP Movie Maker newsgroup
and as such the very interesting questions/comments made are off topic.

Thanks John, please have another look--actually, please look at the revised
post I've made in this post. Because I am trying to use MM2 and my
questions were directed soley at the too-low audio I experienced when using
a zoom mic in doing a live recording with MM2, I'm confident that I'm in the
right place but simply didn't ask the question clearly enough. I actually
intended my questions to be directed soley at our use of Windows XP
MovieMaker 2. (They in part are a follow up to a thread I started a few
weeks ago; my newsreader already deleted the thread so I created a new
thread (because I didn't and don't know how to create a reply in a case
where I don't have a post to reply to.)


I would love to know which newsgroup you thought you were in, would not
mind having a listen as my local church is this year celebrating 600yrs
with choirs and campanology.



Excellent, you've simply increased my hope that you'll reevaluate my post!
(On the other hand, has that 600 years been with MM2<g>?) I've read a
number of your posts and realize you're a regular contributor (and that you
and the group as a whole are friendly), and therefore if you thought my post
was off topic, I'm confident that it lacked clarity. Because I'm trying to
tune our equipment selections as soon as possible, I'll take the liberty of
reposting the original content and try to be more specific. Here goes; I'll
add brackets for the new details.

We're recording [directly to MM2, and also to analog camcorders (via tape)
from which I ultimately intend to pull video/scenes into MM2 via a capture
device or card] from a former choir loft and getting inadequate audio only
on the PC-based recording. [By "the PC-based recording" I'm referring to
the live recording we're doing into MM2, on equipment to be described in a
moment.] We're probably going to end up trying a digital
camcorder; presently we're recording audio via an inexpensive zoom mic
that's worked fine on our analog old camcorders (and we're recording video
via a USB [probably 1.1] which surprisingly is working well--we're recording
using the large option). Here's the loft location from an earlier thread:

I obtained a zoom mic and tested it using an analog camcorder (plugged into
the camcorder's external mic). It helped at least somewhat, and anyway the
tape's volume was fine when played in a normal VCR.

I next tried using the zoom mic with direct recording to MM2 (on a new large
hard drive, speed 7 somethings--basically, one of the fast ones<g>). When I
play it, with the PC's volume turned up high, the audio is barely audible.
(In the same computing session, I tested the audio by playing a WAV file.)

Shall I:
--Put in a different audio card? (This makes me hesitant, because I think I
have to uninstall the onboard audio to do that, and that means it might be
difficult to try to fall back.) We have available two new cards:
Mad Dog Prowler 4.1 DSP 4 channel PCI sound card

Mad Dog Predator 5.1 DSP 6 Channel PCI sound card

--Get a more expensive zoom mic?

--Not worry about it if we go with a digital camcorder instead of our
current zoommic/USBCamera combo? (The cameras we're thinking of will do
firewire but has no external mic port.)

--A combination of the above, or something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice, particularly soon<g>. Thanks!
 
H

Howard J

Thanks, replies made here (not in-line), please let me know if the group
prefers them to be in-line.
You said that you plugged the mic into the PC and did a
straight record.
Yes, that's exactly what we did.

If this is the case then you might also
want to check your PC's settings for incoming audio.

Are there multiple places to set that? In MM2, there was a vertical
slider-type setting for audio--I think it was under advanced settings. It
was set all the way to the bottom when I entered the screen. I moved it all
the way to the top.

Another observation: There was what seemed to be a meter, showing how high
the volume was. The meter never went above 1/3 of its potential height
while I was watching it. I tested it by:
a) turning off the zoom mic--the meter jumped when I moved the switch, and
then went to the bottom and stayed there.
b) turning the zoom mic to regular. The meter showed up & down activity,
going perhaps 1/4 of the meter's potential length.
c) turning the zoom mic to zoom. The meter showed up & down activity,
going perhaps 1/3 of the meter's potential length.

It's
probably turned down to nothing but not muted.

As noted earlier in this reply I moved the MM2-based setting all the way to
the top.

By the way, a person at a store I called suggested that perhaps the
batteries are worn out. That's possible, of course, but I just bought the
package. Is there a way to test the batteries' strength?

Thanks!



TofuTheGreat said:
Your zoom mic is mono. Two black bands is stereo.

You said that you plugged the mic into the PC and did a
straight record. If this is the case then you might also
want to check your PC's settings for incoming audio. It's
probably turned down to nothing but not muted.



Christopher
-----Original Message-----
More questions/ideas:

The zoom mic has just one black band on its plug (or whatever we call the
part that gets plugged in). I noticed that the regular computer microphones
I have, for example a Labtec, have two black bands. I think that the zoom
mic is mono. Might the computer microphones be stereo, and if so, the sound
card be wanting stereo or at least be allocating only half of its capacity
to listening to the zoom mic?

The built-in sound on the PC has only three sound ports, while the Mad Dog
cards have four. Should we be trying to end up using a "line in" instead of
a mic? I think that the port I plugged the mic into was the only port in
which I succeeded when testing using the built-in application Sound
Recorder.

If when we record directly to the PC we were to use a digital camcorder that
has an external mic, and if we were to plug an external mic into it, would
there be any difference if we were to plug the zoom mic into the sound card
instead of into the camcorder? Will MM2 give us the option of choosing
between the computer's mic input and the digital camcorder? Thanks!





Howard J said:
We're recording from a former choir loft and getting inadequate audio only
on the PC-based recording. We're probably going to end
up trying a
digital
camcorder; presently we're recording audio via an inexpensive zoom mic
that's worked fine on our analog old camcorders (and we're recording video
via a USB [probably 1.1] which surprisingly is working
well--we're
recording
using the large option). Here's the loft location from an earlier thread:

in a former choir loft. The loft is on one side of
the room. It is one story higher and about 30 feet in front of, one
side of
the stage. And it's about 50 feet or so from the
other side.
(These
are
rough estimates.)

I obtained a zoom mic and tested it using an analog
camcorder (plugged
into
the camcorder's external mic). It helped at least
somewhat, and anyway
the
tape's volume was fine when played in a normal VCR.

I next tried using the zoom mic with direct recording to
MM2 (on a new
large
hard drive, speed 7 somethings--basically, one of the
fast ones said:
I hesitant, because I think
I


.
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

Hi Howard,

This is an interesting thread, as you are into things beyond the casual user
of MM2. Maybe you should also post to the SimplyDV forum, which is
frequented by a number of helpful and knowledgeable people, especially in
the hardware/software areas that you are in.

There's a link to the forum on the Online... Forums page of my website.

When I check the properties of narration files recorded by MM2 using
microphones, my laptop shows them as 78 kbps, 16 bit, 2 channel stereo, 44
kHz sample rate, a bit less than CD quality. But my desktop shows them as
143 kbps, above CD quality. So maybe the quality depends on the microphone
and sound card.


PapaJohn
www.papajohn.org


Howard J said:
We're recording from a former choir loft and getting inadequate audio only
on the PC-based recording. We're probably going to end up trying a digital
camcorder; presently we're recording audio via an inexpensive zoom mic
that's worked fine on our analog old camcorders (and we're recording video
via a USB [probably 1.1] which surprisingly is working well--we're recording
using the large option). Here's the loft location from an earlier thread:
(These

I obtained a zoom mic and tested it using an analog camcorder (plugged into
the camcorder's external mic). It helped at least somewhat, and anyway the
tape's volume was fine when played in a normal VCR.

I next tried using the zoom mic with direct recording to MM2 (on a new large
hard drive, speed 7 somethings--basically, one of the fast ones<g>). When I
play it, with the PC's volume turned up high, the audio is barely audible.
(In the same computing session, I tested the audio by playing a WAV file.)

Shall I:
--Put in a different audio card? (This makes me hesitant, because I think I
have to uninstall the onboard audio to do that, and that means it might be
difficult to try to fall back.) We have available two new cards:
Mad Dog Prowler 4.1 DSP 4 channel PCI sound card

Mad Dog Predator 5.1 DSP 6 Channel PCI sound card

--Get a more expensive zoom mic?

--Not worry about it if we go with a digital camcorder instead of our
current zoommic/USBCamera combo? (The cameras we're thinking of will do
firewire but has no external mic port.)

--A combination of the above, or something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice, particularly soon<g>. Thanks!
 
J

John Kelly

Hi there,

OK, it seems to me that you are trying to get a computer to do all things
at one time. Having been on a few TV productions I can tell you that this
is not the way forward. (Diary of an Edwardian Lady was the last one by the
way)

What I have seen done in the past and consequently done myself is to set a
recorder with a microphone at the important locations within the room.
Because of the acoustic problems in such a room you have to use low field
response mics. These mics are very expensive in comparison to the usual
mics you find in shops etc.

Microphone technology has now evolved to the point where they can (within
limits) capture sound from a sort of apple shaped sphere around the mic.
Sound occurring outside this sphere is very muted. The result is a quite
clear recording from the mic's location and of the subject you want. These
recordings are then reduced down to the type of audio you want...Stereo
perhaps being the most usual.

As far as using Movie Maker goes with regard to recording sound, well Movie
Maker can not be all things to all men. Its main purpose is to give
amateurs such as me the chance to capture and play around with some
domestic quality video and sound. With regard to sound, you would be far
better off using the program that accompanies either of those cards you
mentioned. They will have a much better chance at reaching the highest
quality that can be achieved.

The same goes for recording the video side of things, clearly you need the
best recording equipment you can lay your hands on. Recording video and
audio simultaneously into one machine in a building/room you have described
is not the best way forward.

With regards to a Zoom Mic I have one, in a church it will pick up all of
the reflections and ambient sound from wherever you are pointing it. But
that's not where the camera is and consequently the sound will be very
slightly out of sync...reflections of sound off several walls traveling at
about 740MPH finally arriving at the mic with the camera receiving images
at the speed of light. It can produce really weird results

If you have the resources you either need a multi track tape deck with mics
or you need a number of small tape decks with mics. The small tape deck is
a very reasonable approach and it makes creating the right atmosphere in
the final recording easy to create

Regarding the sound cards you mention. They may well be very good at
playing back audio at 5.1 and 6.1, but it is unlikely in the extreme that
they can record anything other than stereo. The only relevant part of a
sound cards spec is what's the fastest sample rate it can achieve, what is
the signal to noise value (How much does it mess up the recording)

Moving on briefly to sampling rates. You can have the highest sampling rate
ever possible, but if what it is sampling is not good enough, all you get
is a very good sample of something that is not good. Whilst such a
recording can in a sound lab be improved on. It will still not be as good
as an average sampling taken of a good sound source. Put another way, and
this is the same with everything....it will only be as good as the poorest
part.

There is a lot more I could mention. None of the above is related to Movie
Maker, So perhaps you can see why I believed this to be off topic.
 
J

John Kelly

Hi again,

I should have also said...the cheapest audio recording equipment that you
can rent for a couple of days will be better than just about anything you
could buy from a domestic supplier. The cost in general is not prohibitive.
 
H

Howard J

Thanks! I think I see your point re being off-topic in the sense that my
questions could also have related to any other setting in which one would
need to obtain audio. I'm not sure if you want me to continue this thread
here; I agree that the site PapaJohn suggested is a solid fit.

And thank you for the pointers. A couple of concerns lead me back to trying
to figure out how to do the recording on a one shot basis--that is, without
having to this with a single pass, however. One, at least at this point I
can't put the time and funds into pulling together those resources. Second,
the deal with recording these is that we're allowed to do so but not to be
changing tapes (except perhaps once in the case of quite long recordings),
fiddling with things, etc, even if it's not disturbing anyone else. And no
additional equipment is to be visible. The limitation on changing tapes was
actually the final stimulus to checking out the idea of recording directly
to the PC.

At this point I'm going to invest in a conventional digital camcorder on the
hope/theory that the audio recording will be picked up fine by it and that
the audio will simply accompany the video through the firewire connection.
Would it still be helpful to install one of the Mad Dog soundcards?

(Please let me know if this is still too off-topic and I'll head over to the
forum PapaJohn suggested; I intend to look into joining it soon but need to
press ahead presently to prepare for the next recording.)

To your points re sound bouncing around, etc., thank you, that was an
impetus for today gaining assistance to run an audio line from the stage's
sound system up to the recording site. Another option we've almost fully
tested is wireless--basically, putting a wireless mic near one of the
regular speakers.

Thanks again!
 
J

John Kelly

Hi there,

It makes no difference what sound card you install. It plays no part at all
in what you intend to do if you are using a firewire.

All that I said about setting up the audio with separate mic's etc. You
still only take one recording...they are all done at the same time. You
then merge them together as you best see fit in Movie Maker.

If you are going to spend money on a digital camera, then in order to
purchase one that has the right sort of objective lens for the distances
and width of shot involved, you are going to have to spend loads of money.
Please ask a professional photographer what type of lens you need in order
to get effective pictures. Domestic digital cameras would not be a first
option in your circumstances, I don't know enough to be able to advise
better. You are going to need a lens much wider than on domestic
camcorders. The reason is very similar to a printer....take the identical
picture and print it on a machine at 300 dpi, then print it on a machine at
2400 dpi. Pardon the pun, but I think you will get the picture :)

Someone is bound to jump in here and say how there camera works well in
doors, maybe. If as you point out you are only going to get one shot at
this............
 

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