new ssd

[Yousuf Khan]

So, you think SSD as "C" is better than as "D"? What if your slow
"IO seek" programs, like say Excell or Visual Studio, are on a
non-system (D) partition? Would they perform better if on "D" on an
SSD drive? Or do most programs default onto the C drive during
installation? So many questions...I'll have to research this.

RL

Yup, the system drive is the primary beneficiary of SSD technology,
especially on Windows where its somewhat inflexible design requires that
you put applications, simple user data, and the OS on the same drive.

Most programs like Excel or Visual Studio install themselves to the C:
drive, i.e. the system disk.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Oh boy, Paul, you're gonna have to start editing your thoughts a bit
more, it's difficult to follow your posts! But I digress.

Your main concern for picking a disk controller operating mode,
might be what modes support TRIM.

Otherwise, AHCI might help with server style work loads. And
on servers using rotating hard drives.

I did this test directly when I got my SSD several months back: TRIM is
supported both by IDE and AHCI. Though the "common wisdom" somewhat
implies that it's only supported in AHCI mode only, but that's simply
not the case. The TRIM command is actually not part of either the IDE
(ATA7) or AHCI (ATA8) standards, it's simply passed through, over either
protocol.

AHCI's main advantage seems to be a more efficient protocol with lower
overhead, resulting in a more efficient throughput for the drive. The
other advantage of AHCI is its support for removable drives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM

"Windows 7 only supports TRIM for ordinary (AHCI) drives
and does not support this command for PCI-Express SSDs
that are different type of device, even if the device
itself would accept the command"

I'm not going to stick my neck out and say that's the only
way to get TRIM. But it might be a safe assumption. The
Windows built-in AHCI driver is MSAHCI, but it's also possible
to install a custom driver (like the one from Intel) and
perhaps use an Intel version of it. I haven't memorized all
the details.

Well, drives directly attached to a PCIe slot is not going to be going
through either the IDE or AHCI command-set. So if TRIM is a higher-level
protocol sent over the lower-level IDE/AHCI protocols, then if those
low-level protocols are missing, then TRIM cannot be sent either.

Yousuf Khan

 

[RayLopez99]

Oh boy, Paul, you're gonna have to start editing your thoughts a bit

more, it's difficult to follow your posts! But I digress.

No I like Paul's data dumps.

Well, drives directly attached to a PCIe slot is not going to be going

through either the IDE or AHCI command-set. So if TRIM is a higher-level

protocol sent over the lower-level IDE/AHCI protocols, then if those

low-level protocols are missing, then TRIM cannot be sent either.

I take it TRIM is just a luxury for better performance.

Of interest to me was Paul's observation on the reliability of non-enterprise SSDs. Apparently the storagesearch.com articles are geared towards enterprise SSDs not consumer SSDs--I did not realize that fact. Also of interest was the 5000 cycles or less figure for write endurance, which pushes my 2.6 years before the SSD fills up from a rogue write program to 1.1 months.That's cutting it close, however unlikely such a rogue program will occur..

More troublesome are the 'faulty' chips used in cheap consumer SSDs. The good stuff I'm sure they reserve for the enterprise market.

So long story short I need more research and possibly I'll just stick with the proven mechanical HDs for the present.

RL

 

[Flasherly]

I take it TRIM is just a luxury for better performance.

The TRIM is within conjuncture to the CG ("Garbage Can" - what a God
Awful anacronym) OPERAND, as I perhaps understand for a two-stage
deletion process beginning with CG, physical sector/file placed items
marked for deletion, which the TRIM operand in turn irrevocably
erases.

Then again, as I may understand, some do -- SDD controllers among not
other SDD controllers -- which then account for a TRIM algorithm based
upon a time factor or associative of how long files marked for
deletion may retain electronic residency.

With XP and no TRIM help whatsoever on, say, XYZ brand manufacture,
the general worst-case is that the drive is purged, everything
temporarily moved for the SSD to renovated and reformatted,
effectively then for a full TRIM sequence, before moving back the
data. Once or twice a year was the recommended usage.

The accompanying Samsung disc, I got, I believe does say it hold a
TRIM function for XP among its utilities. I haven't, or may not ever
see it, though, as I don't have the appropriate service pack, nor may
I ever choose to install the service packs in that particular
scenario.

I'm curious, though, as how a TRIM residency affect concurs if at all
with valid physical occupancy, a normal operational state for
potential stipends exacted, over specified ratios of space regarded as
empty, whether if in fact such space has or ever has been occupied.

 

[Paul]

I take it TRIM is just a luxury for better performance.

Of interest to me was Paul's observation on the reliability of non-enterprise SSDs. Apparently the storagesearch.com articles are geared towards enterprise SSDs not consumer SSDs--I did not realize that fact. Also of interest was the 5000 cycles or less figure for write endurance, which pushes my 2.6 years before the SSD fills up from a rogue write program to 1.1 months. That's cutting it close, however unlikely such a rogue program will occur.

More troublesome are the 'faulty' chips used in cheap consumer SSDs. The good stuff I'm sure they reserve for the enterprise market.

So long story short I need more research and possibly I'll just stick with the proven mechanical HDs for the present.

RL

Don't overestimate your daily write rate.

Don't overestimate the write endurance.

The two factors just about cancel out.

There's no reason to stay away from SSDs. Adopt an
"early adopter" mindset when using them, that there
are still potentially issues with the designs. In
the first generation, there was stutter in one
controller, in the next generation, bad firmware
in things like Sandforce.

As long as you have backups, you should be OK.

Hard drives are on the other side of the curve.
Accidents happen there, when stuff leaves the factory
without proper oversight. Bad firmware still kills
hard drives. Bad design ideas (400 spindowns per day)
still plague some products. But many aspects of
hard drives, are nothing short of amazing.

Paul

 

[RayLopez99]

hard drives. Bad design ideas (400 spindowns per day)

still plague some products. But many aspects of

hard drives, are nothing short of amazing.

Yes, they use for example 'ground effect' to control how close the head is to the spinning platter. That's why the oft-cited stat that running a HD is "like flying a Boeing 747 six inches above ground" is a bit dishonest--you need to be close to the ground to get a smooth boundary layer, no turbulence, let air laminar flow keep your heads close automatically type situation.

RL

 

[Robin Bignall]

Yes, they use for example 'ground effect' to control how close the head is to the spinning platter. That's why the oft-cited stat that running aHD is "like flying a Boeing 747 six inches above ground" is a bit dishonest--you need to be close to the ground to get a smooth boundary layer, no turbulence, let air laminar flow keep your heads close automatically type situation.

I've read that Win7 supports trim; that Perfect disk supports trim; that
my SSD supports it.
But how is TRIM used / invoked, by what, and when?

 

[Charlie Hoffpauir]

I've read that Win7 supports trim; that Perfect disk supports trim; that
my SSD supports it.
But how is TRIM used / invoked, by what, and when?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM

 

[Robin Bignall]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM

Yeah, I've read that before, Charlie, and it's as clear as mud. It
seems to imply that Win7 supports it for Sata drives in AHCI mode, not
in IDE mode?
But how is it invoked by Windows? Or the user?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, they use for example 'ground effect' to control how close the head is to the spinning platter. That's why the oft-cited stat that running a HD is "like flying a Boeing 747 six inches above ground" is a bit dishonest--you need to be close to the ground to get a smooth boundary layer, no turbulence, let air laminar flow keep your heads close automatically type situation.

The plane 6" above the ground most certainly is strongly affected. It
can fly in that situation at speeds that would stall it out if it were
higher. The Russians even built "planes" that could only fly this
way--basically, a hovercraft on steroids.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's no reason to stay away from SSDs. Adopt an
"early adopter" mindset when using them, that there
are still potentially issues with the designs. In
the first generation, there was stutter in one
controller, in the next generation, bad firmware
in things like Sandforce.

Drive #1: In use for 20 months, it's been absued a bit by a program
that gets a bit ugly in it's database handling. 99% of it's life is
left.

Drive #2: In use for only 2 months, a heavily used system drive. 100%
of it's life is left. (Obviously, there is a roundoff issue there.)
It replaced a smaller drive that was used for about a year and a half
and had IIRC 99% left when I swapped it out.

 

[Charlie Hoffpauir]

Yeah, I've read that before, Charlie, and it's as clear as mud. It
seems to imply that Win7 supports it for Sata drives in AHCI mode, not
in IDE mode? Correct
But how is it invoked by Windows? Or the user?

I have Win 7, and it was installed originally on a 500 GB SATA hard
drive, then when I got the SSd, cloned to the SSD. So I had to go into
windows and "activate" the Trim function. Apparently it is activated
(enabled?) when you install win 7 on a SSD. I don't remember exactly
what I had to do.... I googled for it and followed the instructions.
Here's what I found, but don't remember where I found it:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
How to enable TRIM Command in Windows 7 with a Solid State Drive

To enable or disable TRIM Command, you will need to open an Elevated
Command Prompt window.

How To Open an Elevated Command Prompt window: Click on Start Orb >
Type "CMD.exe" in Search box > Right click on "CMD" and select "Run as
Administrator" (If you receive a prompt confirmation, click YES)

How to Enable TRIM Command

In the Elevated command Prompt windows, type the following:

fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 0

How to Disable TRIM Command

In the Elevated command Prompt windows, type the following:

fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1

How do I know if TRIM is working in Windows 7?

In the Elevated command Prompt windows, type the following:

fsutil behavior query disabledeletenotify
Results explained below:
DisableDeleteNotify = 1 (Windows TRIM commands are disabled)
DisableDeleteNotify = 0 (Windows TRIM commands are enabled)

 

[Robin Bignall]

I have Win 7, and it was installed originally on a 500 GB SATA hard
drive, then when I got the SSd, cloned to the SSD. So I had to go into
windows and "activate" the Trim function. Apparently it is activated
(enabled?) when you install win 7 on a SSD. I don't remember exactly
what I had to do.... I googled for it and followed the instructions.
Here's what I found, but don't remember where I found it:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
How to enable TRIM Command in Windows 7 with a Solid State Drive

To enable or disable TRIM Command, you will need to open an Elevated
Command Prompt window.

How To Open an Elevated Command Prompt window: Click on Start Orb >
Type "CMD.exe" in Search box > Right click on "CMD" and select "Run as
Administrator" (If you receive a prompt confirmation, click YES)

How to Enable TRIM Command

In the Elevated command Prompt windows, type the following:

fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 0

How to Disable TRIM Command

In the Elevated command Prompt windows, type the following:

fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1

How do I know if TRIM is working in Windows 7?

In the Elevated command Prompt windows, type the following:

fsutil behavior query disabledeletenotify
Results explained below:
DisableDeleteNotify = 1 (Windows TRIM commands are disabled)
DisableDeleteNotify = 0 (Windows TRIM commands are enabled)

It sure does.

Now all I need to know is who or what issues trim? And when?
There's no sign of any change in Disk Management.

 

[Charlie Hoffpauir]

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 23:44:06 +0000, Robin Bignall

It sure does.

Now all I need to know is who or what issues trim? And when?
There's no sign of any change in Disk Management.

What I get out of all the tech stuff on Wiki and elsewhere is that for
best results, keep a decent portion of your SSD "Unused". On my 120 GB
SSD, Windows reports 107 GB available, so I keep the installed
programs, etc under 70 GB. "Of course, the actual "not used" bytes
will vary over time as reads are eventually replaced with writes. But
this much empty space gives Wimdows enough room to handle the block
erases needed with the Trim function. I'm guessing the Trim only
occurs during inactivity.... and since I leave the computer on 24/7,
some of that probably occurs overnight.

If someone knows what "triggers" Trim in windows, please chime in.

 

[Flasherly]

If someone knows what "triggers" Trim in windows, please chime in.

Microcenter has a Dell 50GB G914J SSD for $34.99. This is a great way
to speed up an older core 2 laptop. It looks like it's available at
bricks and mortar only.

http://www.microcenter.com/product/402049/G914J_50GB_SATA_30Gb-s...

 

[Robin Bignall]

Correct

I've been running in IDE mode because AHCI mode didn't seem to make any
noticeable difference. But I made the registry mod to activate AHCI
ages ago, and reset the BIOS for AHCI, and rebooted twice before
enabling TRIM. Now, I find that the SSD and HDDs have lost their SMART
capability. Device Manager describes my HDDs, including the SSD, as
SCSI devices.
How does one tell whether AHCI is working or not, and how does SMART get
enabled/disabled?

 

[Michael Black]

Microcenter has a Dell 50GB G914J SSD for $34.99. This is a great way
to speed up an older core 2 laptop. It looks like it's available at
bricks and mortar only.

http://www.microcenter.com/product/402049/G914J_50GB_SATA_30Gb-s...

That would be good for a laptop, where there is the issue of a mechanical
drive getting knocked about, and most reasonable people don't want to
carry everything around on their laptop hard drive.

50gigs is larger than the second hard drive I had, in 2001 (it was a
20gig). And I guess the price is explanable now, 64gig USB flash drives
are about that price now.

Michael

 

[Charlie Hoffpauir]

<snip>

I've been running in IDE mode because AHCI mode didn't seem to make any
noticeable difference. But I made the registry mod to activate AHCI
ages ago, and reset the BIOS for AHCI, and rebooted twice before
enabling TRIM. Now, I find that the SSD and HDDs have lost their SMART
capability. Device Manager describes my HDDs, including the SSD, as
SCSI devices.
How does one tell whether AHCI is working or not, and how does SMART get
enabled/disabled?

I have one bay set up for removable HDD which I use for making
backups. If AHCI wasn't working, I couldn't install and later remove
that SATA drive without rebooting the computer.

Hard disk Sentinel tells me if SMART is working, and it is on all 4 of
my drives. You can download a free version of Hard Disk Sentinel, but
I don't know if it tells you about SMART of not.

 

[Flasherly]

That would be good for a laptop, where there is the issue of a mechanical
drive getting knocked about, and most reasonable people don't want to
carry everything around on their laptop hard drive.

50gigs is larger than the second hard drive I had, in 2001 (it was a
20gig). And I guess the price is explanable now, 64gig USB flash drives
are about that price now.

Michael

It wasn't my promotion - I forgot the quotes when just grabbing it off
a national listing of computer stuff, odds & ends.

I've got a 50G SSD - Samsung. Wouldn't have bitten probably otherwise
unless it were IBM. Angling for the longest warranty, reliability,
etc.

Yeah, I've thought of that USB, small-card factors, whatever it is
that's best - Class-10 memory. You know, suspect, it's going to be
slower memory, though. Don't want to say that the controller chip
slapped on a USB for drive emulation and enhanced file operands, be it
W7, whatever, makes it hardly better than just some USB flash stick.

Knock about? ...I've absolutely no idea what you mean.

It's hot. It's hotter than hot. It's a SSD!

 

[Robin Bignall]

I have one bay set up for removable HDD which I use for making
backups. If AHCI wasn't working, I couldn't install and later remove
that SATA drive without rebooting the computer.

True. Unfortunately my internal disks are not physically accessible.

Hard disk Sentinel tells me if SMART is working, and it is on all 4 of
my drives. You can download a free version of Hard Disk Sentinel, but
I don't know if it tells you about SMART of not.

Either Perfect Disk, Speedfan or Belarc Advisor will display SMART
status. My three SATA disks end up with SMART disabled if I use AHCI.
That's probably why I went back to IDE ages ago.
I'm going to start a new thread on ahci / ide.