New PC works in 1 house, but not another

[GT]

I have a friend with a problem...

A new (month old) Dell Dimension E521. Bought for a parent, so its
registered at purchasers address, not the address where it is being used, so
if Dell turn up on site to fix it they won't find anything wrong!...

When we plug it all in here and switch on, it works perfectly. When we plug
it in at the parent's house, the base unit comes on with the fan
blowing/sucking at full whack and nothing else happens.

This suggests the PC is fine and the problem is in the electricity supply in
the target house. However, through process of ellimination, we can rule that
out along with everything else we can think of...

We have transported the PC between houses a few times so have eliminated
something working loose in transit (and we have checked all cables and fuses
etc).

It is fine here, but doesn't work there, so suggests an electricity supply
problem in their house, but all other appliances in the house are working
perfectly and we have tried different sockets in their house and get the
same (bad) result.

Obviously we have Dell support, but they will probably just say that the PC
is fine (because it is fine here). We intend to call them, but anyone here
got any ideas first?

 

[darklight]

I have a friend with a problem...

A new (month old) Dell Dimension E521. Bought for a parent, so its
registered at purchasers address, not the address where it is being used,
so if Dell turn up on site to fix it they won't find anything wrong!...

When we plug it all in here and switch on, it works perfectly. When we
plug it in at the parent's house, the base unit comes on with the fan
blowing/sucking at full whack and nothing else happens.

This suggests the PC is fine and the problem is in the electricity supply
in the target house. However, through process of ellimination, we can rule
that out along with everything else we can think of...

We have transported the PC between houses a few times so have eliminated
something working loose in transit (and we have checked all cables and
fuses etc).

It is fine here, but doesn't work there, so suggests an electricity supply
problem in their house, but all other appliances in the house are working
perfectly and we have tried different sockets in their house and get the
same (bad) result.

Obviously we have Dell support, but they will probably just say that the
PC is fine (because it is fine here). We intend to call them, but anyone
here got any ideas first?

check the voltage at their house and yours with a multimeter just to
eliminate the voltage problem before you call dell out. second what country
are you in just curious

 

[Grinder]

I have a friend with a problem...

A new (month old) Dell Dimension E521. Bought for a parent, so its
registered at purchasers address, not the address where it is being used, so
if Dell turn up on site to fix it they won't find anything wrong!...

When we plug it all in here and switch on, it works perfectly. When we plug
it in at the parent's house, the base unit comes on with the fan
blowing/sucking at full whack and nothing else happens.

This suggests the PC is fine and the problem is in the electricity supply in
the target house. However, through process of ellimination, we can rule that
out along with everything else we can think of...

We have transported the PC between houses a few times so have eliminated
something working loose in transit (and we have checked all cables and fuses
etc).

It is fine here, but doesn't work there, so suggests an electricity supply
problem in their house, but all other appliances in the house are working
perfectly and we have tried different sockets in their house and get the
same (bad) result.

Obviously we have Dell support, but they will probably just say that the PC
is fine (because it is fine here). We intend to call them, but anyone here
got any ideas first?

Are you using a line filter at the troublesome house? Sometimes those
can flake out.

 

[Clark]

I have a friend with a problem...

A new (month old) Dell Dimension E521. Bought for a parent, so its
registered at purchasers address, not the address where it is being used, so
if Dell turn up on site to fix it they won't find anything wrong!...

When we plug it all in here and switch on, it works perfectly. When we plug
it in at the parent's house, the base unit comes on with the fan
blowing/sucking at full whack and nothing else happens.

This suggests the PC is fine and the problem is in the electricity supply in
the target house. However, through process of ellimination, we can rule that
out along with everything else we can think of...

We have transported the PC between houses a few times so have eliminated
something working loose in transit (and we have checked all cables and fuses
etc).

It is fine here, but doesn't work there, so suggests an electricity supply
problem in their house, but all other appliances in the house are working
perfectly and we have tried different sockets in their house and get the
same (bad) result.

Obviously we have Dell support, but they will probably just say that the PC
is fine (because it is fine here). We intend to call them, but anyone here
got any ideas first?

Have you tried it in a 3rd location? If it works in the other location
and just not the second house, you can get a power checker plug from
Radio Shack or other stores to check the power. Perhaps it has a wiring
problem as far as a ground or something else.

Clark

 

[kony]

I have a friend with a problem...

A new (month old) Dell Dimension E521. Bought for a parent, so its
registered at purchasers address, not the address where it is being used, so
if Dell turn up on site to fix it they won't find anything wrong!...

Shouldn't matter, a purchase is not tied to one physical
residence, rather tied to the owner. In a worst case
scenario, all that should be required is proof of ID and the
receipt, though I doubt it would come to that.

When we plug it all in here and switch on, it works perfectly. When we plug
it in at the parent's house, the base unit comes on with the fan
blowing/sucking at full whack and nothing else happens.

This suggests the PC is fine and the problem is in the electricity supply in
the target house.
However, through process of ellimination, we can rule that
out along with everything else we can think of...

Have you tried turning it on while not connected to a
monitor, nor any other externally powered peripherals or
connections?

Get an outlet tester to confirm proper outlet wiring and
check voltage with a multimeter, carefully (no leaving the
meter on current measurement mode/probes in wrong sockets,
etc).

We have transported the PC between houses a few times so have eliminated
something working loose in transit (and we have checked all cables and fuses
etc).

You are using the same monitor, yes? If not, try same
monitor.

It is fine here, but doesn't work there, so suggests an electricity supply
problem in their house, but all other appliances in the house are working
perfectly and we have tried different sockets in their house and get the
same (bad) result.

Obviously we have Dell support, but they will probably just say that the PC
is fine (because it is fine here). We intend to call them, but anyone here
got any ideas first?

How old is the outlet? I've seen some pretty bad if left
unused for years, if all else fails a replacement outlet
might cost 40 cents at the hardware store... while employing
an electrician is quite a bit more costly but one of the
remaining /potential/ solutions.

 

[Noozer]

I have a friend with a problem...

A new (month old) Dell Dimension E521. Bought for a parent, so its
registered at purchasers address, not the address where it is being used,
so if Dell turn up on site to fix it they won't find anything wrong!...

Buy a cheap UPS and it should provide good power and some will even warn of
a wiring fault at the power socket.

 

[kony]

Buy a cheap UPS and it should provide good power and some will even warn of
a wiring fault at the power socket.

Make that an online, power conditioning UPS, as most of the
cheapest variety do nothing to clean up or improve power
until there is an outtage.,

 

[GT]

Thank you all for your input. To address all replies in 1 go...

We have tried many sockets in both the 'working' house and the 'target'
house. At any socket in the target house, the PC displays the problem, so
this rules out the single socket. other electrical equipment in the house is
fine and lights don't dim at all. The house is not blowing bulbs or anything
else regularly, so spikes or bad supply appears not to be an issue. The
house is only 15ish years old and electics all seem fine.

They don't have a multimeter to hand, but everything else in the house works
perfectly. There are no line filters or surge protection or UPS in place. We
have not tried the PC in a third location.

We have turned the PC on when connected to no peripherals, with only
keyboard+mouse (USB), with only screen and with all 3. We have only tried
the monitor that came with the setup. There are 2 'unknowns' which have not
been tested at the 'working' house - they are a cable modem and a printer
(both just a few months old).

I am beginning to suspect the Epson all-in-1 DX6000 printer as the power
connector on the rear is loose. The device functions just fine, but we think
these problems started a few days after the printer had been connected (USB)
to the PC Base.

Could a faulty printer send a 'nasty' down the USB cable and get the PC into
a state such that it won't boot until disconnected from the power for a
while?

Yesterday, I accompanied the buyer of the PC round to her parents to return
the PC once more and see it not functioning, but everything worked
perfectly. Very, very odd. We'll just have to wait and see what goes wrong.
We have left instructions to take note of exactly what causes the problem,
should it arrise again and will keep you all posted!

 

[Paul]

Thank you all for your input. To address all replies in 1 go...

We have tried many sockets in both the 'working' house and the 'target'
house. At any socket in the target house, the PC displays the problem, so
this rules out the single socket. other electrical equipment in the house is
fine and lights don't dim at all. The house is not blowing bulbs or anything
else regularly, so spikes or bad supply appears not to be an issue. The
house is only 15ish years old and electics all seem fine.

They don't have a multimeter to hand, but everything else in the house works
perfectly. There are no line filters or surge protection or UPS in place. We
have not tried the PC in a third location.

We have turned the PC on when connected to no peripherals, with only
keyboard+mouse (USB), with only screen and with all 3. We have only tried
the monitor that came with the setup. There are 2 'unknowns' which have not
been tested at the 'working' house - they are a cable modem and a printer
(both just a few months old).

I am beginning to suspect the Epson all-in-1 DX6000 printer as the power
connector on the rear is loose. The device functions just fine, but we think
these problems started a few days after the printer had been connected (USB)
to the PC Base.

Could a faulty printer send a 'nasty' down the USB cable and get the PC into
a state such that it won't boot until disconnected from the power for a
while?

Yesterday, I accompanied the buyer of the PC round to her parents to return
the PC once more and see it not functioning, but everything worked
perfectly. Very, very odd. We'll just have to wait and see what goes wrong.
We have left instructions to take note of exactly what causes the problem,
should it arrise again and will keep you all posted!

"Could a faulty printer send a 'nasty' down the USB cable and get the PC into
a state such that it won't boot until disconnected from the power for a
while?"

Yes. The USB D+ and D- terminate directly on the Southbridge, which is ticklish.

Try the computer and monitor, without the printer connected.

Paul

 

[GT]

"Could a faulty printer send a 'nasty' down the USB cable and get the PC
into
a state such that it won't boot until disconnected from the power for a
while?"

Yes. The USB D+ and D- terminate directly on the Southbridge, which is
ticklish.

Try the computer and monitor, without the printer connected.

But unplugging the printer and switching off and back on should reset any
chips and make the problem go away? Why would the problem still be there
after moving the PC (base unit only, without any peripherals) to another
socket and plugging it in there?

 

[CBFalconer]

Thank you all for your input. To address all replies in 1 go...

We have tried many sockets in both the 'working' house and the
'target' house. At any socket in the target house, the PC displays
the problem, so this rules out the single socket. other electrical
equipment in the house is fine and lights don't dim at all. The
house is not blowing bulbs or anything else regularly, so spikes
or bad supply appears not to be an issue. The house is only 15ish
years old and electics all seem fine.

This is way out, but when I was younger there were still areas that
had only DC power lines.

 

[Paul]

But unplugging the printer and switching off and back on should reset any
chips and make the problem go away? Why would the problem still be there
after moving the PC (base unit only, without any peripherals) to another
socket and plugging it in there?

There is a thing called latchup. I have experienced latchup in the lab.
What happened in my case, is the chip I was working on, ceased to do any
I/O at all. The I/O was all frozen. I turned off the lab power supply, then
turned it back on. The problem persisted. I turned off the power and went
home, rather depressed. This was first silicon and things were not going well.

When I came into work the next day, I turned it on again. And to my surprise
it was working. Now, I thought "once fried, fried forever", but after
discovering how to solve the problem, it occurred to me that what I was
seeing was actual latchup. Latchup can happen, when two tristate bus drivers
try to drive the bus at the same time. If the sink or source current exceeds
500mA to around 1 amp, a PNPN parasitic junction can form (otherwise known
as an SCR or silicon controlled rectifier). Once an SCR fires (gate triggers),
it will conduct until forward bias is removed from the junction. and this is
why you have to wait a while, for the PSU to drain. Even a small amount of
residual voltage, is enough to maintain the conducting SCR.

To remove forward bias, means turning off the power supply, and waiting until
all the juice has drained. Waiting 10 seconds might not be enough.

The latchup in my case, was not severe enough to do thermal damage to
the chip (which can and does happen - ask motherboard owners who have
had an ICH5 or ICH5R burned - the chip actually burns thru.)

So, disconnect the printer. Power down the computer and leave it for a while.
Make sure the monitor is also powered off. You want no power on there, while
it drains.

You may get lucky.

Paul

 

[w_tom]

...
They don't have a multimeter to hand, but everything else in the house works
perfectly. There are no line filters or surge protection or UPS in place. We
have not tried the PC in a third location.
...
Yesterday, I accompanied the buyer of the PC round to her parents to return
the PC once more and see it not functioning, but everything worked
perfectly. Very, very odd. We'll just have to wait and see what goes wrong.
We have left instructions to take note of exactly what causes the problem,
should it arrise again and will keep you all posted!

That a multimeter does not exist is not relevant. Ever try to fix
something (remove screws) without a screwdriver? It's not that a
multimeter does not exist. It is that an inexpensive multimeter was
not obtained. A tool so simple and necesary as to be sold even to K-
mart shoppers.

Every reply is speculation because useful information was not
provided - especially numbers. Computer worked unexpectedly later.
It may still be defective. But again is why we need numbers. The
outlet tester is not even very good. Outlet tester can only report
some defects but not report anything as good.

Two places to collect data. One would be the various AC voltages
between the three AC receptacle connections. Another would be DC
voltages on four wires between power supply and motherboard. Numbers
- from the known good location and known bad location - means others
can post definiitve answers. Currently you only have speculation -
try this and try that. And even if something does appear to work,
does the problem still exist? Yes, it may. Speculation also takes
more time while providing subjective answers.

Cited were measurements on AC receptacle. DC voltages are also as
simple and takes less than two minutes - also using the multimeter.

First take voltages on any one purple, red, orange, and yellow wire
between power supply and motherboard. Then take those same numbers
again as the power switch is pressed. What those numbers are before
and when power supply is pressed will say what is happening in the
good location. Then do same with computer in bad location. What are
those numbers and what is different in the response?

AC and DC voltage numbers will result in a complete answer
immediately. AC numbers only may suggest a suspect. Even if you
discover machine works fine with cable disconnected, well, what next?
Voltage measurements or something equivalent is still necessary to
locate the reason why. We still need those numbers.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this? Well son, then don't do
that." But that is not a solution and is also what the UPS
recommendation says. First identify a problem with numbers. Only
then can posted replies zero in on and fix the problem. Sometimes,
such symptoms discover a fault that may otherwise harm humans. Get
the meter. Its only $20, less in Wal-mart (yes the meter is sold
where screwdrivers are sold), and maybe $10 on sale. Cheap and
effective. Numbers mean posted replies will be useful.

Discontinue the "it could be this or could be that". Numbers say
immediately what is - no speculation.

 

[GT]

That a multimeter does not exist is not relevant. Ever try to fix
something (remove screws) without a screwdriver? It's not that a
multimeter does not exist. It is that an inexpensive multimeter was
not obtained. A tool so simple and necesary as to be sold even to K-
mart shoppers.

Every reply is speculation because useful information was not
provided - especially numbers. Computer worked unexpectedly later.
It may still be defective. But again is why we need numbers. The
outlet tester is not even very good. Outlet tester can only report
some defects but not report anything as good.

We have covered this point...

The TV works, the toaster works, the DVD player works, the desklamp works,
the kettle works, the answerphone works, the printer works, the cable modem
works, the fridge works, the oven works, the alarm clock works, the
hairdryer works, the video recorder works, the washing machine works, the
lawnmower works, the doorbell works, the phone charger works, the food mixer
works, all light bulbs work and only blow after a reasonable lifetime.

The point is that every single electrical applicance in the entire house and
garage works without fault, so there is no need to test the electrical
supply to the house. You want number, OK the input voltage to every socket
in the house is 230V AC.

Every reply is speculation because we don't yet know what is causing the
problem. A problem with a solution is no longer a problem - it is an
unfinished job! A problem with no solution requires speculation - that is
how the world works!

 

[w_tom]

The point is that every single electrical applicance in the entire house and
garage works without fault, so there is no need to test the electrical
supply to the house. You want number, OK the input voltage to every socket
in the house is 230V AC.

An EE has been doing this stuff for so long says those other
appliances tell us little that is useful. You are confusing symptoms
with something far more important - numbers. A similar case in one
house after so many others speculated your exact same conclusion.
Computer techs even tried to fix the problem by adding more memory
because, after all, other appliances also worked OK. IOW they were
speculating only from observation rather than looking at actual
facts. Without numbers, they had no clue.

Well, the numbers immediately showed something completely
unacceptable. So I removed the breaker box cover. Based upon a
homeowner reaction, they had cut off every safety ground flush where
each bare copper wire entered the breaker box. Electricians will
appreciate the solution - completely new feed wire for every household
electric circuit costing thousands of dollars. As a result, other
appliances 'worked' but the computer kept crashing.

What does the story suggest? Post that recommends numbers arrived
with numerous decades of experience. Clearly if the computer works in
one place and not in another, then other appliances can work and still
a computer may fail. Exact same situation existed in that house. And
no - there is nothing in this post that even implies checking safety
ground. This post says to do as they say in CSI - follow the
evidence. You have not done that. If you really want an answer,
then post numbers. Numbers may even look perfectly good to you - and
just like in that house - those numbers immediately identify what was
also a major human safety problem.

Again, your replies will only be as good as information your
provide. If you don't provide numbers, then don't expect to get
useful replies. Every other appliance works? That only means
electricity is in the house; nothing more.

 

[Plato]

When we plug it all in here and switch on, it works perfectly. When we plug
it in at the parent's house, the base unit comes on with the fan
blowing/sucking at full whack and nothing else happens.

In the last 10 years I had two cases where a PC wouldn't work in a
house. I built them myself and I knew they worked perfectly. Both times
the client/customer had a 2 prong outlet. And in both times, they needed
to upgrade their service in order to get the PC to work.

 

[GT]

In the last 10 years I had two cases where a PC wouldn't work in a
house. I built them myself and I knew they worked perfectly. Both times
the client/customer had a 2 prong outlet. And in both times, they needed
to upgrade their service in order to get the PC to work.

Thanks, but this is a UK enquiry - we only have 3 pronged sockets. We did
used to have flimsy, dodgy 2 pronged wiring about 30+ years ago, but things
are much safer and reliable now. Both houses in question (2 streets next to
each other) are only about 15 years old, and both houses have sound wiring.
The problem seems to have gone away on its own - we plugged the PC back in
again at the 'broken' house and added the peripherals one-at-a-time and
rebooted between each and all is well - still working 2 weeks later too!
Very strange.

 

[jameshanley39]

Thanks, but this is a UK enquiry - we only have 3 pronged sockets. We did
used to have flimsy, dodgy 2 pronged wiring about 30+ years ago, but things
are much safer and reliable now. Both houses in question (2 streets next to
each other) are only about 15 years old, and both houses have sound wiring.
The problem seems to have gone away on its own - we plugged the PC back in
again at the 'broken' house and added the peripherals one-at-a-time and
rebooted between each and all is well - still working 2 weeks later too!
Very strange.

i'll just point out that the 3 prong and 2 prong are basically the
same.
the third prong is just a safety thing, as you suggest.

you can get an adaptor e.g. to plug a 2 prong shaver (shavers in the
uk tend to be 2 prong, 'cos bathroom sockets are 2 prong) into a 3
prong plug socket.

the other difference between uk and us is real, it's AC voltage 240 vs
like 115. But this isn't relevant either.

Your point that this is a UK system is irrelevant.

Also, plugging peripherals in one and a time and rebooting, is
irrelevant too. Since you said you were trying it with no peripherals
and it didn't work.

Anyhow, you say it works now
As you say, it suddenly works, there is no explanation.

..

 

[GT]

i'll just point out that the 3 prong and 2 prong are basically the
same.

They are actually totally different - the only similarity is that 2 of the
prongs are live and neutral. The shape of the prongs, the layout of the
prongs, the number of prongs, the house wiring and (as you pointed out) the
voltage are different.

the third prong is just a safety thing, as you suggest.

Earth - slightly more than just safety! The entire house is connected to
earth these days - radiators, piping etc.

you can get an adaptor e.g. to plug a 2 prong shaver (shavers in the
uk tend to be 2 prong, 'cos bathroom sockets are 2 prong) into a 3
prong plug socket.

True, but irrelevant!

the other difference between uk and us is real, it's AC voltage 240 vs
like 115. But this isn't relevant either.

Your point that this is a UK system is irrelevant.

I was answering your point addressing the fact that when you had encountered
this problem in the past it was in dwellings with a 2 pronged electric
system. My reply started by pointing out something *very* relevant - 2
pronged plug systems were superceeded decades ago with the safer 3 pronged
(third is earth, not just safety) system.

Also, plugging peripherals in one and a time and rebooting, is
irrelevant too. Since you said you were trying it with no peripherals
and it didn't work.

Not really - we tried it after one of the peripherals had knocked into this
state, so once a long power off rest allowed it to reset, we added the
peripherals one-at-a-time to identify which had knocked it into the state.

Anyhow, you say it works now
As you say, it suddenly works, there is no explanation.

And it is still working after a few weeks - I would have been happier to
identify and fix the problem, but alas, no just joy!