Motherboard comparisons?

[John Oliver]

I'm starting to look around for a new motherboard, probably AMD Socket
939 I can't find any good reviews, comparisons, etc of current
models... Anandtech has a six-month old article, Toms doesn't have
anything newer... Basically, i even need to be comparing chipsets at
this point, as it's been some time since I've looked into this stuff.

Please, no "Get this one!" without a well-explained reason why... I'm
looking for information to make my own choice based on my requirements.

 

[Ed]

I'm starting to look around for a new motherboard, probably AMD Socket
939 I can't find any good reviews, comparisons, etc of current
models... Anandtech has a six-month old article, Toms doesn't have
anything newer... Basically, i even need to be comparing chipsets at
this point, as it's been some time since I've looked into this stuff.

Please, no "Get this one!" without a well-explained reason why... I'm
looking for information to make my own choice based on my requirements.

Some links to 939 reviews here, don't know how new they are.
http://www.amdboard.com/socket_939_boards.html

Ed

 

[George Macdonald]

I'm starting to look around for a new motherboard, probably AMD Socket
939 I can't find any good reviews, comparisons, etc of current
models... Anandtech has a six-month old article, Toms doesn't have
anything newer... Basically, i even need to be comparing chipsets at
this point, as it's been some time since I've looked into this stuff.

Please, no "Get this one!" without a well-explained reason why... I'm
looking for information to make my own choice based on my requirements.

How umm, urgent is this? What kind of system are you looking at - a full
ATX or a micro-ATX mbrd based? I'd suggest waiting a bit for the new
PCI-Express chipset mbrds to appear and maybe give them a few weeks to get
to the 2nd BIOS rev. The Gigabyte nForce4 mbrd is now showing as available
at newEgg:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-128-268&depa=0
(note the description is wrong with the nForce3 in it but the details are
correct and mbrd pic looks right for PCI-Express) and I expect the MSI,
Epox and Asus versions to appear very soon; Gigabyte is not my favorite
mbrd but that dates back to an old grudge I have... when their U.S.A.
wallah told me to "**** off" on the 'phone.. Note also that a review of
one of their K8 mbrds observed that the DIMM slots were awful close
together, such that DIMMs with heat spreaders would get splayed apart
slightly.

My current favored mbrd brand is MSI and they have two nForce4 and two ATI
Xpress 200 chipset mbrds just announced - there are links to reviews at
their global Web site: http://www.msi.com.tw/index.htm. Here's one of them
which compares the nForce3, nForce4, ATI RX200P and K8TPro, apparently from
a Web site in U.A.E.

I recently built a new system based on their K8N Neo2 Platinum mbrd which
is nForce3 AGP-based of course; I decided PCI-Express didn't sway me that
much and I didn't want to wait any longer. I do notice though, that
mid-range AGP cards are becoming less available compared with PCI-Express
ones... and for recent GPUs, like the 6600GT, more expensive. So far I'm
happy with the system - rock solid apart from a minor issue with an old USB
joystick, a Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3D, which is not always
detected on startup. I almost never play games so I'm not that bothered -
probably a BIOS or driver issue.

Another reason to wait is that the supply of 90nm Athlon64s has
mysteriously dried up, with the retail 3500+ no longer mentioned at NewEgg
and the OEM sporadically available at higher price than I paid for the
retail. I dunno what's going on here: a big order from China?... or
Dell?<chuckle>... the IBM plant was batched for some other chip for a
month?... trouble with the process? I got mine at the end of November and
the mbrd and CPU went out of stock within hours... and availability of both
has always seemed patchy. I also have a 130nm 3500+ in the office and the
90nm version *does* run significantly cooler: low 50sC vs. low 60sC under
high load... better for a home environment I think, where A/C is not so
consistent... in our house anyway.

Final note on memory: I went with two Crucial 8-chip 512MB DIMMs
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-146-541&depa=0
and am very happy with the choice: it's SPD is 3-3-3-8 and will not run at
tighter timings *but* it *does* run at 1T on command rate, which some other
stuff, including some of the high-priced "fashion" DIMMs, won't. While I'm
not into bragging, and certainly not about Sandra benchmarks, it scores a
buffered bandwidth of ~5.8GB/s. - there isn't much faster on standard
clocking.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[George Macdonald]

My current favored mbrd brand is MSI and they have two nForce4 and two ATI
Xpress 200 chipset mbrds just announced - there are links to reviews at
their global Web site: http://www.msi.com.tw/index.htm. Here's one of them
which compares the nForce3, nForce4, ATI RX200P and K8TPro, apparently from
a Web site in U.A.E.

Sorry, but I forgot to add http://www.tbreak.com/reviews/article.php?id=339

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[c]

I know a guy who repairs a lot of PCs. According to him, the best
motherboards are either Gigabyte or Intel, and Intel doesn't make
motherboards for AMD. So if I were you I would start looking on
Gigabyte's site to find something that meets your requirements.

 

[George Macdonald]

I know a guy who repairs a lot of PCs. According to him, the best
motherboards are either Gigabyte or Intel, and Intel doesn't make
motherboards for AMD. So if I were you I would start looking on
Gigabyte's site to find something that meets your requirements.

The people who subscribe to this NG don't need to "know a guy" and I can
tell you that your info is false. Gigabyte mbrds have improved somewhat
over the years but were among the worst ever produced a few years ago. A
current criticisms I saw was: DIMM slots so close to each other that DIMMs
with heat spreaders were jammed against each other. Their "DPS technology"
is outrageously expensive and marginally useful. It was the likes of
Gigabyte that got Taiwanese mbrds a bad name; certainly the worst example I
ever saw was a Gigabyte ca. 1993 - see my other post on their err,
attitude.

OTOH, Intel's mbrds, for desktops anyway, have gone in the opposite
direction; Intel doesn't even make mbrds for Intel now. They have always
been far too restricted on BIOS Setup options to be of any interest to
anyone who wanted more than an appliance... frustratingly inaccessible.

The best mbrds I've seen have come from Asus though I have never used
Supermicro or Tyan; more recently I've found MSI to offer good quality,
with a useful feature set at a reasonable price. I've also had good
results with Soyo and to a lesser extent, Epox.

My advice to you is to find another "guy".

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[GSV Three Minds in a Can]

Bitstring <[email protected]>, from the
wonderful person George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^[email protected]>
said

It was the likes of
Gigabyte that got Taiwanese mbrds a bad name; certainly the worst example I
ever saw was a Gigabyte ca. 1993 - see my other post on their err,
attitude.

The best mbrds I've seen have come from Asus though I have never used
Supermicro or Tyan; more recently I've found MSI to offer good quality,
with a useful feature set at a reasonable price. I've also had good
results with Soyo and to a lesser extent, Epox.

I'd second Asus. My last Epox board had voltage stability problems from
day1, and died an early death with the dreaded bulging capacitor problem
after about a year. The Asus boards go on-and-on-and-on, until I get
bored and bin them. Only downside is that Asus appear to lack somewhat
in the Bios writing department (or the converse - lots of new releases,
which you really don't want to install).

I might have tried Gigabyte back in 2001, except a pre-sales email
enquiry to (what should have been) their European sales email address
(from a link on their web site) was bounced by
<[email protected]> and an email to <[email protected]>
was similarly bounced.

I figured anyone who would set up <postmaster> to bounce (claiming the
bounce was from <postmaster>) was/were complete turkeys, and I should
shop elsewhere.

 

[Never anonymous Bud]

I'd second Asus. My last Epox board had voltage stability problems from
day1, and died an early death with the dreaded bulging capacitor problem
after about a year. The Asus boards go on-and-on-and-on,

Yet my experience is exactly the opposite.

I've had 2 Epox MBs, both are still running for someone else,
more than 4 years later.

But I have 2 blown Asus MBs of my own, and one that belonged
to another person, all 3 have bad HD controllers, one has several
other problems.

I'll NEVER buy another Asus MB.

 

[daytripper]

Yet my experience is exactly the opposite.

I've had 2 Epox MBs, both are still running for someone else,
more than 4 years later.

But I have 2 blown Asus MBs of my own, and one that belonged
to another person, all 3 have bad HD controllers, one has several
other problems.

I'll NEVER buy another Asus MB.

not a problem, I more than make up for your loss to asus ;-)

/daytripper
(fwiw, the supermicro xeon server boards I've built around of late are quite
good as well...)

 

[GSV Three Minds in a Can]

Bitstring <[email protected]>, from the

But I have 2 blown Asus MBs of my own, and one that belonged
to another person, all 3 have bad HD controllers, one has several
other problems.

Which model??

 

[Never anonymous Bud]

Which model??

2 of them were A7V133s, the other was more recent,
but I don't remember the model number.

 

[GSV Three Minds in a Can]

Trying to steal the thunder from Arnold, GSV Three Minds in a Can


2 of them were A7V133s, the other was more recent,
but I don't remember the model number.

The A7V133's did have all sorts of exciting problems with the via
chipset, but I never had one actually die (I did get an A7V 'original
flavour' with one EIDE channel DOA).

 

[keith]

Bitstring <[email protected]>, from the
wonderful person George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^[email protected]>
said




I'd second Asus. My last Epox board had voltage stability problems from
day1, and died an early death with the dreaded bulging capacitor problem
after about a year. The Asus boards go on-and-on-and-on, until I get
bored and bin them. Only downside is that Asus appear to lack somewhat
in the Bios writing department (or the converse - lots of new releases,
which you really don't want to install).

That's the only reason I've bionned an Asus board. I prefer Tyan these
days, simply because they do the features I prefer, and well. Asus
is rather middle-of-the road these days. MSI and EPox suck bilgewater,
IMO. EPox used to be a decent early adopter, but I don't see any advantage
of going there anymore.

I might have tried Gigabyte back in 2001, except a pre-sales email
enquiry to (what should have been) their European sales email address
(from a link on their web site) was bounced by
<[email protected]> and an email to <[email protected]>
was similarly bounced.

Post purchase support is important. If you get bounced before...

I figured anyone who would set up <postmaster> to bounce (claiming the
bounce was from <postmaster>) was/were complete turkeys, and I should
shop elsewhere.

I've had decent support from Tyan. At least I can get through to whatever
level support I need, even if they *can't* fix my problem (SATA doesn't
work under Linux64).

 

[keith]

not a problem, I more than make up for your loss to asus ;-)

By a few orders of magnitude? ;-)

 

[George Macdonald]

Yet my experience is exactly the opposite.

I've had 2 Epox MBs, both are still running for someone else,
more than 4 years later.

I've only ever had one Epox mbrd and it blew recently after 5 years or so;
to be fair it was a MVP3 and had a K6-2 running at 500MHz in it for the
latter half of its life... and I suspect the VR was not designed for the
higher current. This was a fairly common problem with K6 mbrds of that era
with VRs spec'd for 10amps(?). Epox has come a long way from their origins
as a bottom-feeder to rebranders but IIRC Keith found them lacking on
signal quality/integrity when he was "playing" with a spectrum analyzer a
few years back.

But I have 2 blown Asus MBs of my own, and one that belonged
to another person, all 3 have bad HD controllers, one has several
other problems.

You said in another post that they were A7V133s - I know that there were
probs with some (early) versions of their VIA KT133 mbrds and you had to
get the right model. Did the HD controller just suddenly go or did it fail
with a new HD? Early versions of the 686 SB could not recognize UDMA Mode
5(100MHz) or 6 HDs and you had to use the HD mfrs' utility to fix the HD at
Mode 4... and on some, even Mode 3.

I'll NEVER buy another Asus MB.

I tend to think they've slipped a bit compared with their glory days - we
have a P55T2P4 which is still running and due for retirement soon; I've
just replaced my home P3B-F with a MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum. I've also seen
complaints that they are getting arrogant latterly on support response.
I've been using MSI recently, with both VIA and nForce chipsets and haven't
had a bad one yet, nor any chronic setup probs with them.

From what I've seen, MSI was one of the companies affected by the capacitor
probs but they sort of acknowledged their shortcoming there by making a
firm statement of future quality on that. They are pretty good on BIOS
updates, with reasonably good stability initially and prompt fixes.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Yousuf Khan]

I'd second Asus. My last Epox board had voltage stability problems from
day1, and died an early death with the dreaded bulging capacitor problem
after about a year. The Asus boards go on-and-on-and-on, until I get
bored and bin them. Only downside is that Asus appear to lack somewhat
in the Bios writing department (or the converse - lots of new releases,
which you really don't want to install).

I can't agree with Asus being all that good. I had one that died after a
year. An Asus A7V. Probably the Taiwanese capacitor problems. Anyways,
I don't blame Asus, and I'd buy another one if necessary, but I simply
think they all suck badly. I just assume they all suck, and then it's
easy for them to exceed my expectations.

If I'd listened to people, I'd have never touched an ECS board with a
SIS chipset. Well I didn't listen, and got it based on purely price, and
this mobo's been running fine for 4 years now.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Never anonymous Bud]

You said in another post that they were A7V133s - I know that there were
probs with some (early) versions of their VIA KT133 mbrds and you had to
get the right model. Did the HD controller just suddenly go or did it fail
with a new HD?

Just failed during normal use, the drives were still fine
when placed in other systems.

 

[George Macdonald]

That's the only reason I've bionned an Asus board. I prefer Tyan these
days, simply because they do the features I prefer, and well. Asus
is rather middle-of-the road these days. MSI and EPox suck bilgewater,
IMO. EPox used to be a decent early adopter, but I don't see any advantage
of going there anymore.

Hmmm, you really think MSI is that bad? I only started using them
~20months ago and so far, everything I've seen encourages me to stick with
them. Pity you don't have that spectrum analyzer now.

Whether rumors or not, wrt the stories of Asus hanging back on early AMD
Athlon mbrds supposedly to placate Intel, there were delays and for
apparently no good technical reason IIRC. Within the past year, Asus
talked of continuing to push DRDRAM with a new chipset from SiS(?). Those
and the stories of shabby treatment by Asus support took some of the sheen
off for me.

To tell the truth I'm not sure what we mean by mbrd quality now. I hear
stories that there are only two or three mbrd mfrs left, with maybe six or
so plants each, a few in Taiwan but most in PRC. AFAICT much of the
sub-contracting to those real mfrs is done through
manufacturers/contractors like Info-Tek http://www.itctwn.com.tw/menu.htm
who claim to handle "manufacture" for Acer, Asustek, Gigabyte, among
others. There have been reports that Info-Tek is also a major shareholder
in Gigabyte.

Taiwanese business relationships are always hard to fathom -- companies
seem change names/hands based on births, deaths, marriages, divorces(?) --
but with that kind of infrastructure, I wonder how much control the vendor
brand name we know has over quality and component selection. IOW, as an
example of quality, the capacitor problem may have been "out of their
hands".

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Keith R. Williams]

Hmmm, you really think MSI is that bad? I only started using them
~20months ago and so far, everything I've seen encourages me to stick with
them.

TO be fair, I haven't' used an MSI board in some years, but I'm not
willing to go back with *my* money, unless they have some must-have
feature that no one else has (not likely). That was the only reason I
went with EPoX. They had a feature that no one else had at the time.
The board worked, well sorta. It had a lot of issues and was binned as
soon as something else came along (Asus, BTW).

Pity you don't have that spectrum analyzer now.

That was a very interesting time. The differences were amazing, but
one can see the same sorts of differences by looking at how clocks are
treated with a nice oscilloscope.

Whether rumors or not, wrt the stories of Asus hanging back on early AMD
Athlon mbrds supposedly to placate Intel, there were delays and for
apparently no good technical reason IIRC. Within the past year, Asus
talked of continuing to push DRDRAM with a new chipset from SiS(?). Those
and the stories of shabby treatment by Asus support took some of the sheen
off for me.

AIUI, Asus lost a bunch of their lead design people to other
manufacturers about the same time. Perhaps the two were linked? About
that time I switched from Asus to Tyan (1590 and 1598-C2, which is
still in service after five years).

To tell the truth I'm not sure what we mean by mbrd quality now. I hear
stories that there are only two or three mbrd mfrs left, with maybe six or
so plants each, a few in Taiwan but most in PRC. AFAICT much of the
sub-contracting to those real mfrs is done through
manufacturers/contractors like Info-Tek http://www.itctwn.com.tw/menu.htm
who claim to handle "manufacture" for Acer, Asustek, Gigabyte, among
others. There have been reports that Info-Tek is also a major shareholder
in Gigabyte.

It seems they do put out a variety of different products though. It's
not *quite* like all the various "makes" of PCChips boards. ;-)
Perhaps at different price-points one gets varying quality components
(though design should be relatively fixed). IIRC Tyan still designs
their boards in silly-valley. I'm sure they're produced in Taiwan or
PRC.

Taiwanese business relationships are always hard to fathom -- companies
seem change names/hands based on births, deaths, marriages, divorces(?) --

The Taiwanese business sector is an interesting one, perhaps it can be
looked at like the Italian/Sicillian "business" sector. It's all
"family", ya' know. ;-)

but with that kind of infrastructure, I wonder how much control the vendor
brand name we know has over quality and component selection. IOW, as an
example of quality, the capacitor problem may have been "out of their
hands".

I can't imagine that a company with a name to protect would specify
components. The "capacitor problem" was caused by the downward price
pressure of the motherboard market (or greed, if you're a lefty ;-).
Good capacitors were available, at a price.

 

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:43:54 +0000, GSV Three Minds in a Can

The A7V133's did have all sorts of exciting problems with the via
chipset, but I never had one actually die (I did get an A7V 'original
flavour' with one EIDE channel DOA).

That raises a significant point: A "good" mobo maker can't make a good
mobo out of a chipset that sucks. This is what makes me cynical about
"good" motherboard brands; nearly all of them have products based on
bottom-scraper chipsets, that sell on thier brand name as "better".

So I look at chipset first (how good could this motherboard possibly
be?) and then the vendor (is the brand bad enough to screw it up?)

It's a bit like SVGA cards; folks look at how much memory there is on
it, instead of starting from which chipset it's based on. Just
because it's easier to understand "256M" is better than "128M",
doesn't mean to say this is what is most important.

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Proverbs Unscrolled #37
"Build it and they will come and break it"