MFT Size

R

Rainy

I am using Diskeeper Pro.. a wonderful program.. but it is telling me I need
to increase the size of the MFT ? and I can't find a way to do that inside
the program.. any help appreciated.. seems like since the MFT IS ONLY 28mb
it fills up quite easily with fragments. So I need to increase the size!
thanks Rainy ps. keep it simple techs, ok? lol
 
R

Rainy

you meant to say defrag will cleanup the MFT Sector..yes but I still need to
increase the MFT size.. currently it's only 28mg.. This was suggested by
diskeeper..Rainy.
I believe that Defrag with cleanup the MFT sector.
 
R

Richard Urban

Instead of blindly doing what some program recommends, I suggest you
investigate a bit. Do you have any problems caused by the MFT's smaller
size. I will bet a resounding NO!

Go to their news groups/forums and read a bit about what others have to say.

A few years back I fell for the same thing. I had a few small problems as a
result of changing it and saw absolutely no benefit of doing so.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
 
R

Rainy

the program is telling me that the drives are degraded.. and unless I defrag
every day which I do.. since I am on almost 24/7... the drives would
degrad.. I trust diskeeper, and as a matter of fact got the program from
this group.. someone recommended it.. are you saying you use Diskeeper
too.. and you changed the size. and saw nothing beneficial? that's a point,
and will rethink this.. just thought it would do no harm to increase the
size.. like what could happen? thanks Rainy
Instead of blindly doing what some program recommends, I suggest you
investigate a bit. Do you have any problems caused by the MFT's smaller
size. I will bet a resounding NO!

Go to their news groups/forums and read a bit about what others have to say.

A few years back I fell for the same thing. I had a few small problems as a
result of changing it and saw absolutely no benefit of doing so.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
 
V

Vanguard

Rainy said:
the program is telling me that the drives are degraded.. and unless I
defrag
every day which I do.. since I am on almost 24/7... the drives would
degrad.. I trust diskeeper, and as a matter of fact got the program
from
this group.. someone recommended it.. are you saying you use
Diskeeper
too.. and you changed the size. and saw nothing beneficial? that's a
point,
and will rethink this.. just thought it would do no harm to increase
the
size.. like what could happen? thanks Rainy
Instead of blindly doing what some program recommends, I suggest you
investigate a bit. Do you have any problems caused by the MFT's
smaller
size. I will bet a resounding NO!


No, what Richard said is that defragmenting the MFT provides little
performance benefit - for him. I know some users like to defrag the
registry but that provides no benefit because it gets copied into
memory. Accessing one address is just as fast as another regardless
that they are noncontiguous. However, reducing the size of the registry
can help only in the time it takes to load it into memory (and consuming
less memory which is then available to other processes).

I understand why there is no benefit to defrag the registry but there
*might* be benefit to defragging the MFT. But just because there might
be a benefit doesn't mean that YOU will get that benefit. I don't know
why Diskeeper is bitching about a too-small MFT area. That size is
determined by the partition size so the MFT can record all the sectors
within it and how they are used. Also a "zone" is allocated into which
the MFT can expand. Perhaps you enlarged the partition (by deleting a
partition and then using the free disk space to enlarge the other
partition) which would end up with an MFT that may not have enough
reserve space preallocated to it to allow for the addition of the
deleted partition's sectors.

MFT works differently than FAT in the aspect that files under a cluster
in size are actually stored within the MFT rather than as a separate
chain of sectors. It would be a waste of disk space to keep such small
files recorded separately and still consume the same space within the
MFT to record their sector chain. In the 2nd article below, you can
edit a registry item to enlarge the MFT "zone" into which the MFT can
expand (but it won't work on the first MFT segment). It mentions how
under Windows 2000 (and XP) you can view the MFT usage and
fragmentation. Note that "usage" doesn't necessarily mean that amount
of the MFT is actually in use. When a file is deleted, that record in
the MFT because reusable when another file needs it but that record is
not deleted from the MFT. That is, the MFT always grows and never
shrinks, and the unallocated records no longer to point at files but
simply become part of a pool to use in future file allocations. So
saying that the MFT is 99% used says nothing of how many records within
it are actually inuse for current file allocations.

http://www.windowsnetworking.com/kb...ryTips/Miscellaneous/MFT-MasterFileTable.html

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/174619/en-us

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/fs/master_file_table.asp
 
G

Guest

Defragging your hard drive **every day** is totally unnecessary. You seem
to have more than your fair share of problems. Why do you keep messing with
your computer ??

MD
 
R

Rainy

I appreciate your response, but that is your opinion that defragging every
day is totally unnecessary... I believe that it helps my computer.. I know
of other techs who also defrag every day.. and when I do maintenance which
includes defragging, I feel/see a noticeable difference .. so I keep doing
it.. I am on my computer a great deal, and have a maintenance plan... which
works for me..

I used to have windows xp PRO.. unfortunately it wasn't a valid OS..:(( a
tech put my computer together and I had no way of knowing whether it was
legitimate of not until windows validation came out) so when I was able I
purchased a new OS.. and got Windows XP HOME.. which is slightly different..
so some of what I am setting up is new to me, for instance, I was never
asked about the MFT when I was running XP Pro.. and this is the reason I am
having a few problems not the fair share you speak about.. since I am asking
about my friends computer and my sons.. My computer is running in top
form.. That is why I mess with it.. I want it to stay that way!... thanks
Rainy :)

Defragging your hard drive **every day** is totally unnecessary. You seem
to have more than your fair share of problems. Why do you keep messing with
your computer ??

MD
 
R

Rainy

No I didn't enlarge a partition.. not yet.. but planning to in the near
future.. since all the responses to my question have stated that I should
just leave it alone.. I will do just that.. thanks for all lthis
information..but will have to digest it some. it's a lot of information..
.... thanks Rainy
Rainy said:
the program is telling me that the drives are degraded.. and unless I
defrag
every day which I do.. since I am on almost 24/7... the drives would
degrad.. I trust diskeeper, and as a matter of fact got the program
from
this group.. someone recommended it.. are you saying you use
Diskeeper
too.. and you changed the size. and saw nothing beneficial? that's a
point,
and will rethink this.. just thought it would do no harm to increase
the
size.. like what could happen? thanks Rainy
Instead of blindly doing what some program recommends, I suggest you
investigate a bit. Do you have any problems caused by the MFT's
smaller
size. I will bet a resounding NO!


No, what Richard said is that defragmenting the MFT provides little
performance benefit - for him. I know some users like to defrag the
registry but that provides no benefit because it gets copied into
memory. Accessing one address is just as fast as another regardless
that they are noncontiguous. However, reducing the size of the registry
can help only in the time it takes to load it into memory (and consuming
less memory which is then available to other processes).

I understand why there is no benefit to defrag the registry but there
*might* be benefit to defragging the MFT. But just because there might
be a benefit doesn't mean that YOU will get that benefit. I don't know
why Diskeeper is bitching about a too-small MFT area. That size is
determined by the partition size so the MFT can record all the sectors
within it and how they are used. Also a "zone" is allocated into which
the MFT can expand. Perhaps you enlarged the partition (by deleting a
partition and then using the free disk space to enlarge the other
partition) which would end up with an MFT that may not have enough
reserve space preallocated to it to allow for the addition of the
deleted partition's sectors.

MFT works differently than FAT in the aspect that files under a cluster
in size are actually stored within the MFT rather than as a separate
chain of sectors. It would be a waste of disk space to keep such small
files recorded separately and still consume the same space within the
MFT to record their sector chain. In the 2nd article below, you can
edit a registry item to enlarge the MFT "zone" into which the MFT can
expand (but it won't work on the first MFT segment). It mentions how
under Windows 2000 (and XP) you can view the MFT usage and
fragmentation. Note that "usage" doesn't necessarily mean that amount
of the MFT is actually in use. When a file is deleted, that record in
the MFT because reusable when another file needs it but that record is
not deleted from the MFT. That is, the MFT always grows and never
shrinks, and the unallocated records no longer to point at files but
simply become part of a pool to use in future file allocations. So
saying that the MFT is 99% used says nothing of how many records within
it are actually inuse for current file allocations.

http://www.windowsnetworking.com/kb...ryTips/Miscellaneous/MFT-MasterFileTable.html

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/174619/en-us

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/fs/master_file_table.asp
 
S

Sharon F

I am using Diskeeper Pro.. a wonderful program.. but it is telling me I need
to increase the size of the MFT ? and I can't find a way to do that inside
the program.. any help appreciated.. seems like since the MFT IS ONLY 28mb
it fills up quite easily with fragments. So I need to increase the size!
thanks Rainy ps. keep it simple techs, ok? lol

Sizing of the MFT is an automatic system function. It will expand if it
needs to. My vote goes to "leave it alone."
 
R

Rainy

thanks kiddo.. I will.. :) Rainy
I am using Diskeeper Pro.. a wonderful program.. but it is telling me I
need
to increase the size of the MFT ? and I can't find a way to do that inside
the program.. any help appreciated.. seems like since the MFT IS ONLY 28mb
it fills up quite easily with fragments. So I need to increase the size!
thanks Rainy ps. keep it simple techs, ok? lol

Sizing of the MFT is an automatic system function. It will expand if it
needs to. My vote goes to "leave it alone."
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Rainy said:
I appreciate your response, but that is your opinion that defragging
every day is totally unnecessary... I believe that it helps my
computer.. I know of other techs who also defrag every day.. and
when I do maintenance which includes defragging, I feel/see a
noticeable difference .. so I keep doing it.. I am on my computer a
great deal, and have a maintenance plan... which works for me..



What you do is of course up to you, but I'll throw in an opinion
anyway.Defragging anywhere near once a day is *enormous* overkill. If you
notice an improvement by doing so, I suspect that it's just your perception,
and is in the nature of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You see what you expect
to see.

Defragging once a *month* is more than most people need to do.
 
R

Rainy

I think what I will do is let it go for a week.. just to see if there is a
lot of fragmented files.. and what the difference would be.. I'm not so set
in my ways that I can't change what I am doing, especially if it's really
not working for me.. thanks for the response! Rainy
Rainy said:
I appreciate your response, but that is your opinion that defragging
every day is totally unnecessary... I believe that it helps my
computer.. I know of other techs who also defrag every day.. and
when I do maintenance which includes defragging, I feel/see a
noticeable difference .. so I keep doing it.. I am on my computer a
great deal, and have a maintenance plan... which works for me..



What you do is of course up to you, but I'll throw in an opinion
anyway.Defragging anywhere near once a day is *enormous* overkill. If you
notice an improvement by doing so, I suspect that it's just your perception,
and is in the nature of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You see what you expect
to see.

Defragging once a *month* is more than most people need to do.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Rainy said:
I think what I will do is let it go for a week.. just to see if there
is a lot of fragmented files.. and what the difference would be.. I'm
not so set in my ways that I can't change what I am doing, especially
if it's really not working for me.. thanks for the response! Rainy


You're welcome. I think even once a week is considerably more often than
almost everyone needs, but see how it turns out and let us know.

The problem, of course, is that there's no easy way to measure overall
performance differences and you have to go by a subjective feeling about the
improvement. If we are too convinced that what we believe is correct, our
subjective measurement of the difference almost always reinforces what we
think we know.
 
R

Rainy

thanks so much.. was the last paragraph english.. :) I had to read it
several times to figure it out.. Just kidding you... yes I know what you
mean.. and thanks so much for enlightening me.. I love this group.. and have
learned a great deal.. now if I can only remember what I learned.. lol
thanks Rainy
Rainy said:
I think what I will do is let it go for a week.. just to see if there
is a lot of fragmented files.. and what the difference would be.. I'm
not so set in my ways that I can't change what I am doing, especially
if it's really not working for me.. thanks for the response! Rainy


You're welcome. I think even once a week is considerably more often than
almost everyone needs, but see how it turns out and let us know.

The problem, of course, is that there's no easy way to measure overall
performance differences and you have to go by a subjective feeling about the
improvement. If we are too convinced that what we believe is correct, our
subjective measurement of the difference almost always reinforces what we
think we know.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Rainy said:
thanks so much.. was the last paragraph english.. :) I had to read it
several times to figure it out.. Just kidding you... yes I know what
you mean.. and thanks so much for enlightening me.. I love this
group.. and have learned a great deal.. now if I can only remember
what I learned.. lol thanks Rainy


You're welcome, Rainy.
 
P

POP

Rainy said:
I appreciate your response, but that is your opinion that
defragging every
day is totally unnecessary... I believe that it helps my
computer.. I know
of other techs who also defrag every day.. and when I do
maintenance which
includes defragging, I feel/see a noticeable difference .. so I
keep doing
it.. I am on my computer a great deal, and have a maintenance
plan... which
works for me..

I used to have windows xp PRO.. unfortunately it wasn't a valid
OS..:(( a
tech put my computer together and I had no way of knowing
whether it was
legitimate of not until windows validation came out) so when I
was able I
purchased a new OS.. and got Windows XP HOME.. which is
slightly different..
so some of what I am setting up is new to me, for instance, I
was never
asked about the MFT when I was running XP Pro.. and this is the
reason I am
having a few problems not the fair share you speak about..
since I am asking
about my friends computer and my sons.. My computer is running
in top
form.. That is why I mess with it.. I want it to stay that
way!... thanks
Rainy :)

Defragging your hard drive **every day** is totally
unnecessary. You seem
to have more than your fair share of problems. Why do you keep
messing with
your computer ??

MD

I pretty much agree with Ken's response that once a month is
probably a good figure.
I used Norton's System Doctor for a few months to monitor
drive fagmentation on my own machine and the empirical results,
for -me- turned out to be that once a month was usually plenty,
but if I was into heavy use with MS Office creating and killing
all its temp files, etc., then maybe as often as two weeks.
Firing up any of myu video editting stuff (not the MovieMaker
freegie) pretty much dictated a daily degrag if I spend many
hours actually editing video.
The -only- time I ever noticed defrag helping noticeably was
after a day or so of heavy video editing, a very disk-intensive
app, which creates many huge files over and over, deleting and
creating scratch files et al constantly. I also found that doing
a defrag before I did any video rendering could cut hours from
the rendering times too. But, like I said, that's me. Not you.

Then of course there is the question of how much fragmentation is
too much? Ten percent? Fifteen percent? It also depend on
whether you are accessing the fragmented files on the disk. If
not, no problem. If so, maybe you can notice it; it depends on
how many fragments any particular file may have.
For myself, I found I was often feeling like I felt the
fragmentation effects at about fifteen % on the system drive and
almost never on the other data drives, unless I was doing video
work, as already mentioned.
There are really only two instances where I can say I honestly
notice fragmentation: Video work, or installing/deleting a lot
of programs/files.

On the flip side, I don't know that there is anything wrong with
defragging once a week, but I'd have to agree it's probably
overkill. Unless you're the type that sits and watches the
defrag operation working: Then, the more often you do it, the
less time it'll take to defrag. I let my automated defrag run
once a month overnight while the machine is idle. I'll
occasionally run additional defrags, depending on what I've been
doing and how the machine feels, but ... I'm just playing it
safe. I let a drive reach 78% fragmentation once (mistake, not
on purpose), and had to run it three times to get a complete
defrag. Norton's Speed Disk wouldn't even touch it, though the
drive had 40%+ free space. I had to use XP's defrag to do it, so
used it all three times.

So, IMO It's a presonal preference, but I pretty much have to
agree with Ken that once a week is overkill. At the same time I
don't know that it's going to hurt anything either though at once
a week.

Pop
 
R

Rainy

Hi Pop, I think you are right, about it being a personal opinion.. but
everyone who has responded has pretty much agreed.. thanks Rainy


Rainy said:
I appreciate your response, but that is your opinion that
defragging every
day is totally unnecessary... I believe that it helps my
computer.. I know
of other techs who also defrag every day.. and when I do
maintenance which
includes defragging, I feel/see a noticeable difference .. so I
keep doing
it.. I am on my computer a great deal, and have a maintenance
plan... which
works for me..

I used to have windows xp PRO.. unfortunately it wasn't a valid
OS..:(( a
tech put my computer together and I had no way of knowing
whether it was
legitimate of not until windows validation came out) so when I
was able I
purchased a new OS.. and got Windows XP HOME.. which is
slightly different..
so some of what I am setting up is new to me, for instance, I
was never
asked about the MFT when I was running XP Pro.. and this is the
reason I am
having a few problems not the fair share you speak about..
since I am asking
about my friends computer and my sons.. My computer is running
in top
form.. That is why I mess with it.. I want it to stay that
way!... thanks
Rainy :)

Defragging your hard drive **every day** is totally
unnecessary. You seem
to have more than your fair share of problems. Why do you keep
messing with
your computer ??

MD

I pretty much agree with Ken's response that once a month is
probably a good figure.
I used Norton's System Doctor for a few months to monitor
drive fagmentation on my own machine and the empirical results,
for -me- turned out to be that once a month was usually plenty,
but if I was into heavy use with MS Office creating and killing
all its temp files, etc., then maybe as often as two weeks.
Firing up any of myu video editting stuff (not the MovieMaker
freegie) pretty much dictated a daily degrag if I spend many
hours actually editing video.
The -only- time I ever noticed defrag helping noticeably was
after a day or so of heavy video editing, a very disk-intensive
app, which creates many huge files over and over, deleting and
creating scratch files et al constantly. I also found that doing
a defrag before I did any video rendering could cut hours from
the rendering times too. But, like I said, that's me. Not you.

Then of course there is the question of how much fragmentation is
too much? Ten percent? Fifteen percent? It also depend on
whether you are accessing the fragmented files on the disk. If
not, no problem. If so, maybe you can notice it; it depends on
how many fragments any particular file may have.
For myself, I found I was often feeling like I felt the
fragmentation effects at about fifteen % on the system drive and
almost never on the other data drives, unless I was doing video
work, as already mentioned.
There are really only two instances where I can say I honestly
notice fragmentation: Video work, or installing/deleting a lot
of programs/files.

On the flip side, I don't know that there is anything wrong with
defragging once a week, but I'd have to agree it's probably
overkill. Unless you're the type that sits and watches the
defrag operation working: Then, the more often you do it, the
less time it'll take to defrag. I let my automated defrag run
once a month overnight while the machine is idle. I'll
occasionally run additional defrags, depending on what I've been
doing and how the machine feels, but ... I'm just playing it
safe. I let a drive reach 78% fragmentation once (mistake, not
on purpose), and had to run it three times to get a complete
defrag. Norton's Speed Disk wouldn't even touch it, though the
drive had 40%+ free space. I had to use XP's defrag to do it, so
used it all three times.

So, IMO It's a presonal preference, but I pretty much have to
agree with Ken that once a week is overkill. At the same time I
don't know that it's going to hurt anything either though at once
a week.

Pop
 

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