Major problems

[the wharf rat]

problem with companies like Dell, HP, etc who often design without a
CPU fan and depend on the cooling of a large heat sink by the case fan
to keep the CPU cool.

Yeah, it seems chintzy but it does appear to work and if you think
of some of the Zalman designs maybe it's not such a bad idea after all.

Not to mention... many home or SOHO machines run in environments that
are consistently over 80-90 degrees in the Summer months.

That's ok. Just throw your multimeter on the dust bunnies and
if they read cold blow on 'em with your hair dryer.

 

[westom]

        And if they weren't defective before you put the heat gunon 'em
they sure as hell are now, right, genius?  

Consumer magazines created minor problemss to be fixed by computer
repairman. Most never fixed the problem and charged massive bills to
replace perfectly good components - also called shotgunning. wharf
rat is one. Had the wharf rat read the very first page of any
semiconductor datasheet, then he knew why hairdryers do not cause
semiconductor damage. That means learning before posting.

Consumer magazines complain about the technical competance of so
many computer repairmen who do not even know simplest concepts.
Obviously hairdryer heats does not harm semiconductors. That myth is
popular when a computer expert never learned basic semiconductor
principles.

Meanwhile the OP could obtain useful replies from those who actually
know this stuff; by reading numbers from a multimeter in thirty
seconds. Only the most technically naive would not understand why and
would attack other posters. Personal attacks are routine when the
self proclaimed 'computer expert' has been exposed as electrically
ignorant. wharf rat - read the first page of any semiconductor
datasheet before posting more myths. Heat from a hairdryer is also a
powerful diagnostic tools - when one first learns basic electrical
concepts and has this few generations of design experience. That
clearly is not you. You do not even know why the multimeter reports
so much in only thirty seconds.

 

[the wharf rat]

Had the wharf rat read the very first page of any
semiconductor datasheet, then he knew why hairdryers do not cause
semiconductor damage. That means learning before posting.

Operating temperature of your typical MPP cap: 40-85 C

Operating temperature of a typical hair dryer at muzzle: 107 C

Looks like hair dryer 1, capacitor 0...

And here I thought you'd be an expert on hot air, pal.

Consumer magazines complain about the technical competance of so
many computer repairmen who do not even know simplest concepts.

Yeah, all those guys running around with hair dryers give the
rest of us a bad name.

 

[Richard Urban]

You have NOT answered my question.

How does a multi-meter know that the heat sink fins are blocked - causing
the CPU or the GPU to overheat?

Please, enlighten me! I love to learn. Maybe there is a function on my Fluke
87 that I am unaware of.

--

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience

And if they weren't defective before you put the heat gun on 'em
they sure as hell are now, right, genius?

Consumer magazines created minor problemss to be fixed by computer
repairman. Most never fixed the problem and charged massive bills to
replace perfectly good components - also called shotgunning. wharf
rat is one. Had the wharf rat read the very first page of any
semiconductor datasheet, then he knew why hairdryers do not cause
semiconductor damage. That means learning before posting.

Consumer magazines complain about the technical competance of so
many computer repairmen who do not even know simplest concepts.
Obviously hairdryer heats does not harm semiconductors. That myth is
popular when a computer expert never learned basic semiconductor
principles.

Meanwhile the OP could obtain useful replies from those who actually
know this stuff; by reading numbers from a multimeter in thirty
seconds. Only the most technically naive would not understand why and
would attack other posters. Personal attacks are routine when the
self proclaimed 'computer expert' has been exposed as electrically
ignorant. wharf rat - read the first page of any semiconductor
datasheet before posting more myths. Heat from a hairdryer is also a
powerful diagnostic tools - when one first learns basic electrical
concepts and has this few generations of design experience. That
clearly is not you. You do not even know why the multimeter reports
so much in only thirty seconds.

 

[Richard Urban]

Unfortunately, Westom is correct here.

Back in 1962 I was already using a heat gun to "force" an intermittent
problem to manifest itself. You don't just turn on the heat and walk away.
You have to sit there with the multimeter or oscilloscope connected into the
circuit looking at what is occurring at the time your are applying heat.

In fact, there are special heat guns made just for solid state circuits -
ones that do not get as hot as the standard heat gun. There are others that
can turn steel cherry red - not the ones you want to use on a computer M/B
or a high quality TV or stereo receiver.

But it IS an accepted practice by a qualified technician.

I just question Westcoms qualifications because he implies that you can
detect blocked heat sink fins by the use of a multimeter.

 

[the wharf rat]

Unfortunately, Westom is correct here.

Yeah, I've used a hair dryer to diagnose old short-waves, but the
usual failure mode is runs when warm, not cold, so you get it warm THEN
turn it on and if it works you have a good lead as to the problem: bad caps.

He's just such a putz I can't resist yanking his chain I guess.
Honestly though I've never heard of anyone doing this with a PC board because
it's almost never worth trying to replace a bad cap. That surface mount
stuff is a PIA and for the 60 bucks you're better off buying a new one.

Same thing with disc drives. I think my most common service request
is "please recover my data/please fix my bad drive". When I explain they
could buy a case of the things brand new for what it would cost to recover
those MP3's they generally see the light...

 

[webster72n]

Hi all,
My desktop is an older (about 8.5 years) Gateway P4, 1.8ghz, WinXP that's
come down with a real problem. I generally leave it on 24/7 and it has a
router hooked up for my wireless home network. We use my laptop primarily
because it's so much nicer. So, I haven't used my desktop in a while and
when I went to use it one day last month, the monitor kept blinking out on
me. Every 3 to 5 seconds, the monitor would just go black for about a
second and then come back on. I can even hear a tick from the monitor
similar to that you would hear when you shut your computer down. I never
noticed, but my wife said she even saw the power indicator light blink off
and sometimes it even turned orange from green. Then, I noticed that
there were some anomalies on the screen image. There were some strange
artifacts and some discoloration of different parts of the screen . Also,
the cursor had some dots and lines surrounding it that moved with it
whenever I moved the mouse. It seemed like it was having a difficult time
repainting the screen. At first, I thought the monitor was finally going
out, so I swapped with a spare monitor that I have, but I still have the
same problem. Then, I found that if I turn the system off and leave it
off for several hours (or come back the next day), everything will work
fine for a while, but then it will start misbehaving again. Furthermore,
the problem continues to get worse until the cursor freezes and the whole
system hangs. However, even in the frozen state, the wireless network
works, so I just leave it alone so we can use the laptop. I thought maybe
this could be heat related, but both of my fans (processor and chassis)
are running fine. What could be causing this problem? The video card or
the power supply come to mind. But I don't know how to test either item.
Any thoughts about this?
Thanks for any help,
Jim.

Summing up the responses, 'a hair dryer may do the job for you'.
Either video card or power supply can easily be tested by your local
computer guru. You may have other problems after such prolonged and
uninterrupted use, also, which are hard to determine by theory alone.
Good luck seems to be in order,

Harry.

 

[Richard Urban]

Stick to servicing refrigerators and washing machines !

 

[westom]

Operating temperature of your typical MPP cap: 40-85 C
Operating temperature of a typical hair dryer at muzzle: 107 C

Wow. Do they teach science in your high school? A hairdryer is
hotter than boiling water? Then the scalp is pealing off due to
burning. the wharf rat knows a hairdryer outputs air that is hotter
than boiling water - 107 degree C.

Even a heat gun to shrink tubing is hotter - and still quite cool to
electronics. A hairdryer will not shrink heat shrinkable tubing. Too
cool. So techs use a hotter heat gun. But even that hotter heat gun
does not harm electronics. Anyone with minimal electronics knowledge
would know this. Anyone who does not provides the OP with not even
one useful reply.

wharf rat claims a hairdryer is 225 degrees F. Anyone with a hand
knows that is not possible. But wharf rat claims to be a computer
expert. He should know more.

Hairdryer on highest heat setting is a perfect diagnostic tool in
anyone's hands. Will not harm semiconductors. Can even find defects
before those semiconductors cause failures.

Meanwhile, 30 seconds and numbers from a multimeter means the OP
could have a useful reply immediately. Experts who know hair dryers
output 225 degree F also recommend shotgunning. Shotgunning is
routine when the tech does not even know the boiling temperature of
water. Shotgunning is a symptom of a tech without high school science
education. So the wharf rat posts insults - and assistance for the
OP. Posting what he learned today in high school science.

 

[webster72n]

Stick to servicing refrigerators and washing machines !

And miss all the fun? No way!

 

[Richard Urban]

Right.

Because I know full well the capabilities of said multimeter, and have know
how to implement these functions for over 45 years - I know full well that
you are blowing smoke.

There isn't a qualified computer tech out in the wild who does NOT exchange
parts (takes about 1 minute for a video card) to verify a diagnosis. Then
the part is changed back out if need be. This has been going on since the
days of tube television (horizontal problem = change the horizontal
oscillator tube; if no work - put the old one back in).

With computers and current televisions there is even *LESS* reason to use a
multimeter, since no technician does board level repair any longer.

You're trying to thump yourself on the chest in saying you have found a sure
fire, better way. It just isn't so. I know it and you know it!

So keep on having your fun till you are kill filed by everyone who counts.

 

[webster72n]

Right.

Because I know full well the capabilities of said multimeter, and have
know how to implement these functions for over 45 years - I know full well
that you are blowing smoke.

There isn't a qualified computer tech out in the wild who does NOT
exchange parts (takes about 1 minute for a video card) to verify a
diagnosis. Then the part is changed back out if need be. This has been
going on since the days of tube television (horizontal problem = change
the horizontal oscillator tube; if no work - put the old one back in).

With computers and current televisions there is even *LESS* reason to use
a multimeter, since no technician does board level repair any longer.

You're trying to thump yourself on the chest in saying you have found a
sure fire, better way. It just isn't so. I know it and you know it!

So keep on having your fun till you are kill filed by everyone who counts.

Not the kind of fun I was talking about and going to the 'tech guy' is only
a last resort. I meant the fun of watching what some people come up with.
I appreciate this group for what it is, whether I need or can give help.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Harry.

 

[westom]

There isn't a qualified computer tech out in the wild who does NOT exchange
parts (takes about 1 minute for a video card) to verify a diagnosis. Then
the part is changed back out if need be.

A qualified tech replaces a defective part the first time.
Especially when dealing with something so simple as a computer.
Teaching new technicians how to do this is essential to have
productive techs. Multimeter is one tool routinely used and easily
understood by beginners. Those who keep replacing parts until
something works costs too much; waste too much time and parts; get
unemployeed if shotgunning.

In a nuclear sub, a tech kept swapping parts to get a critical
communication system working. Therefore he destroyed his spares,
became more confused, and was fortunately stopped before he starting
shotgunning the few remaining and functioning boards. Because he only
understood shotgunning, his military carrer ended early.

Multimeter is a simple tool routinely used find problems immediately
and not waste time shotgunning. Trained techs also have other tools.
But a multimeter is even used by laymen to fix things - besides
computers - easily.

Is your repairmen in desperate need of training? Any refrigerator
or stove repairmen who keeps replacing parts: time to call someone
else. No qualified repairmen shotguns.

 

[the wharf rat]

A qualified tech replaces a defective part the first time.

Right. Instead of mucking around with hair dryers and
meters and whatnot.

In a nuclear sub, a tech kept swapping parts to get a critical
communication system working.

Well, hell, if it's good enough for the Navy it's good enough
for me. BTW, are you supposed to be talking about that stuff on Usenet?

Do you understand the difference between evaluating a problem,
making a likely diagnosis, and then verifying thay diagnosis by installing
a known good part versus simply replacing things at random?

 

[Richard Urban]

A multimeter is NOT routinely used in computer repair. It is "occasionally"
used in computer repair. It may help YOU if you do not know how to diagnose
what your eyes and experience are telling you.

--

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience

There isn't a qualified computer tech out in the wild who does NOT
exchange
parts (takes about 1 minute for a video card) to verify a diagnosis. Then
the part is changed back out if need be.

A qualified tech replaces a defective part the first time.
Especially when dealing with something so simple as a computer.
Teaching new technicians how to do this is essential to have
productive techs. Multimeter is one tool routinely used and easily
understood by beginners. Those who keep replacing parts until
something works costs too much; waste too much time and parts; get
unemployeed if shotgunning.

In a nuclear sub, a tech kept swapping parts to get a critical
communication system working. Therefore he destroyed his spares,
became more confused, and was fortunately stopped before he starting
shotgunning the few remaining and functioning boards. Because he only
understood shotgunning, his military carrer ended early.

Multimeter is a simple tool routinely used find problems immediately
and not waste time shotgunning. Trained techs also have other tools.
But a multimeter is even used by laymen to fix things - besides
computers - easily.

Is your repairmen in desperate need of training? Any refrigerator
or stove repairmen who keeps replacing parts: time to call someone
else. No qualified repairmen shotguns.

 

[Richard in AZ]

Richard is right. Those who try to use a multimeter in a running computer will more likely do more harm than good.

Even if you find a PC board component that is defective, repairing that can cost more than replacing the board.
I engineered PC boards for a major electronic company for 30 years. If you try to unsolder and resolder a part in a multilayer board that has been in use for some time it will have moisture in it and the heating will cause steam and small explosions that ruin the board. Boards need to be baked to dry them out before any soldering effort is tried.

I once had a old 3 button mouse that lost the left button switch. I confirmed that the switch was bad with a multimeter. It took me an hour to remove the the center switch and move it to the left position. At my current repair rate, that mouse cost $60 to repair and could be replaced for $10 and it only had two functional switches. Of course I fixed the mouse for fun, not profit.

 

[+Bob+]

Do you understand the difference between evaluating a problem,
making a likely diagnosis, and then verifying thay diagnosis by installing
a known good part versus simply replacing things at random?

Shotgunning! Shotgunning!

Clearly he doesn't understand.I'm trying to figure out what he
diagnosis in a modern PC with a multimeter aside from the power
supply. Is he analyzing video signals with a multimeter? Testing CPU's
and memory chips? It boggles the mind.

 

[westom]

        Do you understand the difference between evaluating a problem,
making a likely diagnosis, and then verifying thay diagnosis by installing
a known good part versus simply replacing things at random?

This same expert claims a hairdryer heat is hotter than boiling
water - at 225 degree F. This is the same 'expert' claims a hairdryer
that will not burn skin will somehow destroy semiconductors ...
because the 'expert' never even read one semiconductor datasheet.
This same 'expert' only is identified without basic high school
science education. But then nobody needs education to shotgun.
Shotgunning is routine when technical knowledge does not exist.

Some so fear the meter as to even lie about a meter causing damage.
Multimeter has has high impedance. For those without high school
science, that means a computer does not even see a probing meter and
the meter cannot harm anything in a computer.

When a power supply 'system' is unknown, the meter is a first and
fastest way to identify that system problem. But a meter is so
complex as to be criticized by one who also *knows* a hairdryer peals
skin with 3rd degree burns.

Where do naysayers offer the OP a solution? 30 seconds with the
meter means those with technical knowledge would reply helpfully.

 

[the wharf rat]

This same expert claims a hairdryer heat is hotter than boiling
water - at 225 degree F. This is the same 'expert' claims a hairdryer

It is. Air leaves the dryer heated to 107-110C. You want
air 6 inches away to reach 60C. How hot does the exiting air have to be?

This same 'expert' only is identified without basic high school
science education.

All your multimeters is belong to us.

Some so fear the meter

Oh, yeah! Blue Oyster Cult!

"Come on baby,don't fear the meter,baby take my hand, don't
fear the meter,baby I'm your man"

Classic song.

 

[Jim Ludwig]

Hey all,
Sorry it took so long to respond. I am also sorry to have seen so much
disagreement arise over my problem. All of your comments were valuable to
me and had merit. I very strongly suspected the video card. I was certain
that the fan quit working on it and the card was overheating. That actually
was not the case. I decided to replace the card. I got a cheap nVidia
Geforce 3 on eBay for $13, which is the same card I had. This indeed fixed
my problem. So, fortunately I am back up and running. Thanks for all the
help and consideration.
Jim