Long over the top post about right to left Languages and Alignment


J

jameshanley39

It seems to me that looking at programs

Notepad, Wordpad, MS Word, Textpad

Every program behaves a bit differently.


-----------Notepad and the start...Run dialog box----------

You do need to do that installation of R-->L languages.

CTRL + L/R SHIFT does not work until You have added [support for] R-
L languages. i.e. ctrl panel...regional language options... "Install
files for complex script and right-to-left languages....." Which (i
think) then says "install arabic armenian georgian hebrew indic thai
vietnamese language files"
It adds them in the sense of adding them to a list of languages
available for installation/adding to use.
You already have a few dozen L->R languages listed there anyway. This
just adds a few more languages, these R->L ones.


That alone will get CTRL+L/R SHIFT working in notepad and the
start..run dialog box.


Of course, For it to be useful in typing Hebrew or Arabic, you need to
add the language (for use).

-------------------------------------------------



Wordpad is a bit of an oddball , in that it needs you to
a)add support for R-->L languages - which also adds them to a list of
languages available for installation
As described under notepad.

And it also requires
b)Add at least one of these R-->L Languages. It doesn't matter what
layout you use.. Forget meaning of language vs layout for now..
Language has a Layout. Even if you choose Hebrew language w/ French
layout. That has the effect. So, as long as the language is R-->L,
"wordpad is happy"

So now the CTRL+ L/R SHIFT works in wordpad.

And it behaves very oddly , linking alignment to language.. changing
alignment can cause wordpad to change the language you are using. So
you could write some hebrew, align it to the right. you could start a
few new lines. (it seems to stick now, that when you align right, it
switches to hebrew. this works for whatever R-L language was last
used).
Ms Word, Notepad, Run.. None of them behave like that.
They keep language and alignment independent. In that if you change
one, it doesn't change the other for you. Wordpad does.

note- I don't know about the effect on wordpad if you do a L->R
language with a R->L layout.. like Icelandic language, hebrew layout.
It types hebrew. So it works by layout, but windows chose to include
(as expected) but then delete it from the language bar. I already had
a hebrew-hebrew one listed (hebrew language hebrew layout).


Now. I personally rarely use wordpad. I use it if I don't have Ms
Word, and if for some reason notepad doesn't suffice. e.g.notepad
cannot change font size, or any doc files.

---

MS Word
like notepad, it works after installing that support. installing the R-
L languages to already long list of languages you have listed.

And by the way, with alignment.. You will notice that
when you choose SHIFT+RSHIFT, it toggle-enables the right align(CTRL-
R) MS Word option.
So that is how it works in Ms Word.

Also.
The alignment works differently than notepad. Notepad aligns the whole
document left/right.
Ms Word does it sentence by sentence.


Textpad.

There is no right alignment.

Text stays aligned left. It does not respond to CTRL+ L/R SHIFT.
see textpad forum, people mention hebrew or arabic, and no solution
has been mentioned yet. (though maybe the latest version can)

There is no right alignment option in the program.

And to type hebrew or armenian or whatever, You have to
a) Choosing the language in windows (as with Ms Word and Notepad)
But also, You have to choose a hebrew/whatever supporting font within
it. View..Documents properties..Font
And then you get a screen common to many programs.
If you highlight a FONT in this dialog box, you see SCRIPT drop down
menu. For Hebrew supporting fonts, it will list hebrew in the list.
Many fonts just list Western and that is it. Examples of Fonts that
support hebrew are. Miriam, Rod, Arial, Fixed Miriam.


Regarding the issues of
a)How to get the CTRL+L/R SHIFT
b)How the alignment is done. (line by line or whole document)
c)What the arrow keys do

To summarise a and b.

Regarding a
-To get CTRL+L/R SHIFT
For anything, so, for notepad, and for "start..run": Do- add R-L
languages to list of languages.

For wordpad, in addition to that, you have to add at least one of
those languages. Layout is irrelevant.

For textpad, it isn't supported yet at all. (though may be in latest
version)

Regarding b
How the alignment is done
Notepad does the whole document
start..run just does the line. it has no other way of doing it.

wordpad does line by line. It is exactly identical to CTRL-L/R
Ms Word does line by line. It is exactly identical to CTRL-L/R.
It even toggles the alignment button when you do CTRL+L/R SHIFT
It is the same operation.

Now, regarding c
What the arrow keys do.

MS WORD and NOTEPAD-
ALIGNED LEFT and R->L Language
that is a real nuisance.
the left arrow goes right. the right arrow goes left.
The left arrow goes left to right, and up. So goes from bottom left to
top right. (the logic is obviously that it goes from the end to the
beginning of the document, letter by letter. But it is confusing
because the left arrow is going right)
It is internally consistent.
The right arrow goes left. right to left. from top right to bottom
left.
I wouldn't really think about it..

In MS Word or Notepad..
You want the correct alignment for the language.

Right alignment for a R->L language
Left alignment for a L->R language

That way the left arrow goes left. THe right arrow goes right.

A difference,
with those appropriately done
is with up and down.

With english (or any L-->R lang, with L->R alignment)
Left goes Left and UP (so bottom right to top left)
Right goes right and DOWN (so top left to bottom right)

With Hebrew(or any R-->L lang, with R-->L alignment)
Left goes left and DOWN (so top right to bottom left)
Right goes right and UP (so bottom left to top right)

In Textpad
You cannot change the alignment, it is always left.
But, the cursor movement is not confusing.
Left goes left.(right to left)
Right goes right.(left to right)
so that is good..

But, like it is going through english.. The UP And DOWN is like that.

left goes right to left and UP.
right goes left to right and DOWN.

that is a bit confusing..
But one can pick it up..

It's not like the tricky, left going right and right going left..



in MIRC, you set the font like in textpad.. in windows, then within
the program view..font.
you will see that left goes right e.t.c. But
A good thing is in the bar where you type in text, you can do CTRL+L/R
SHIFT. So you get the alignment nicely. So left goes left and right
goes right.



===========================================
===========================================
===========================================

in short. If wanting good support for R->L languages

**** wordpad (cos it changing languages when you change alignment, is
annoying. Vice versa would be useful)
screw textpad (cos it's all aligned left)

notepad is alright.
ms word is better.

Those 2 would have the potential left arrow moving cursor right issue
- easy to deal with. So, to avoid that. And have left go left e.t.c.
use the alignment appropriate for the language.
such that left moves the cursor left, and right moves the cursor
right.

the Ctrl+L/R SHIFT will change alignment. It is available once you
check that box for "install files for complex script and right-to-left
languages". And click apply.. But doing that is a prerequisite for
adding the language of your choice for use anyway.
 
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J

jameshanley39

It seems to me that looking at programs

Notepad, Wordpad, MS Word, Textpad

Every program behaves a bit differently.

-----------Notepad and the start...Run dialog box----------
<snip>

BTW, incase it wasn't clear.. there is no problem here. Just a
description of things.

..
 
J

jameshanley39

It seems to me that looking at programs

Notepad, Wordpad, MS Word, Textpad

Every program behaves a bit differently.

-----------Notepad and the start...Run dialog box----------

You do need to do that installation of R-->L languages.

CTRL + L/R SHIFT  does not work until You have added [support for] R->L languages. i.e. ctrl panel...regional language options... "Install

files forcomplexscriptand right-to-left languages....."  

Actually..
The label next to the checkbox, says
"Install files for complex script and right-to-left languages,
(including Thai)"

And although it suggests it,, it is misleading. The fact is, that Thai
is not a right-to-left language.

What the option really does, is it installs a bunch of additional
languages, with complex scripts. mostly L-R, but some are R-L.
Hebrew, Arabic, maybe Syriac , are right to left

It installs right-to-left languages, and languages of compex script.

I imagine that all right-to-left languages are complex script.
Apparently what it means by complex script, is that is it may take
marks/dots around the letters. It could also be that the scripts
don't look anything like or are not, english or latin.

So.. Complex Scripts, including those of right-to-left language. I
think it installs the so-called Languages, and corresponding
Layouts(scripts)

If you uncheck it, a msgbox pops up and says
"If you remove arabic, armenian, Georgian, hebrew, indic, thai, and
vietnamese language files, you will no longer be able to enter or
display text in"

and if you check it, it says
"You chose to install the arabic, armenian, Georgian, hebrew, indic,
thai, and vietnamese ..."

I suppose it installs the Layout files used by those languages too..
The language doesn't seem to make much difference. Layout means
Script/alphabet. The language you choose in windows, does help to
identify what language you are switching to, if switching using the
option in the taskbar.

One can write one language using the script of another, and windows
doesn't know or care what language you are writing in.

It may be useful if software has a dictionary function.. for it to
know.. Though I don't know if software like Ms Word would use that
setting to see which dictionary to use. for spell checks. So, language
chosen is not that significant..

But.. If you choose Arabic or Hebrew, then the cursor in MS Word,
will be a right-to-left cursor. So you could choose either of those
if you want that cursor. And then whichever Layout.. And the layout is
the important one. That defines what letters you get. Hebrew, arabic,
whatever. Similarly, you could choose any european language, which
uses left-to-right, with any layout - pref an alphabet you will be
writing the same direction - left-to-right. It can be useful to choose
any european language if testing different layouts that you will be
typing left-to-right.
New Layouts can be created with MSKLC.
 
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J

jameshanley39

On May 21, 5:21 am, "(e-mail address removed)"
===========================================

in short. If wanting good support for R->L languages

**** wordpad (cos it changing languages when you change alignment, is
annoying.  Vice versa would be useful)
screw textpad (cos it's all aligned left)

notepad is alright.
ms word is better.

Those 2 would have the potential left arrow moving cursor right issue
- easy to deal with. So, to avoid that. And have left go left e.t.c.
use the alignment appropriate for the language.
such that left moves the cursor left, and right moves the cursor
right.

I would add..

if typing just a left to right language, or just a right to left
language, then I find using the appropriate alignment, to be the thing
to do.

If typing both, as like a paragraph of one, then a paragraph of the
other.
Then changing alignment on each paragraph is a good idea. MS Word can
set alignment on a line by line basis.


but if typing both in one document, on the same line, then

a good idea, is if it is predominently english, use L-R. If
predominently Hebrew or arabic, use R-L alignment. e.g. if writing
one language, with some words translated in brackets It's not such a
big deal having the arrow keys move the way the alignment defines
regardless of language..
a)the cursor moves quite logically anyway.. So if a L-R alignment,
then R moves right - i.e. ahead, through the english, and left - i.e.
ahead, through the hebrew or arabic. And since it is predominently
english, holding right will move right eventually. And in Ms Word,
doing ctrl- right arrow, will always move right.
b)you can always use the mouse to click where you want the cursor to
be.


another idea, is if Ms Word, to use 2 textboxes. Each can have its own
alignment. So if you are doing like a linear translation, then you
could do all the english, on one textbox.. Then, perhaps after that.
all the hebrew or arabic in the other, and then do ENTER to make sure
they are aligned right. Or one could do a line in one textbox
followed by corrresponding line in the other.

And with notepad.. obviously one cannot do the textbox.. And also, as
mentioned, the alignment changes affects the whole document - every
line. So it is not quite as flexible as Ms Word here. So it is a
fine example here for the idea of using the alignment for the
predominant language. You can quite easily intersperse english words
with hebrew or arabic words, on the same line. This as mentioned, is
a good idea for Ms Word too.. It is if you want to mix the words on
one line, it is a great option.

Another option mgiht be a hebrew or arabic word-processor.. apparently
DavkaWriter is a hebrew one that might be popular.
(might even come with ashkenazi and sephardi siddur text, which might
be useful to some!)
 

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