Licensing on Rebuilds

[Matt]

What options do I have for XP licensing in the following scenario?



I would like to start to offer computer rebuilds as a service. I would like
to help people reformat their hard drives and put a fresh copy of XP on
them. Some users already have XP licenses and some won't. Would I need to
look into volume licensing for this? How do stores like Computer USA handle
licensing for this service? They offer to rebuild your machine to a fresh
copy of XP for only $125. A standard XP license alone will run cost that
much.

 

[null2006]

What options do I have for XP licensing in the following scenario?

I would like to start to offer computer rebuilds as a service. I would like
to help people reformat their hard drives and put a fresh copy of XP on
them. Some users already have XP licenses and some won't. Would I need to
look into volume licensing for this? How do stores like Computer USA handle
licensing for this service? They offer to rebuild your machine to a fresh
copy of XP for only $125. A standard XP license alone will run cost that
much.

If the customer has a recovery CD or a full XP license CD, use that.

If the customer has neither, I would sell the customer a retail version of XP
Home or Pro.

I doubt that Computer USA or any other site is doing it any differently. For
$125, they must be using the customer's XP CD.

 

[kurttrail]

If the customer has a recovery CD or a full XP license CD, use that.

If the customer has neither, I would sell the customer a retail
version of XP Home or Pro.

And if I were the customer, I tell you to go f*#k yourself.

I doubt that Computer USA or any other site is doing it any
differently. For $125, they must be using the customer's XP CD.

OEM XP Home can be had for much less than $125.

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."

 

[Malke]

If the customer has a recovery CD or a full XP license CD, use that.

If the customer has neither, I would sell the customer a retail version of
XP Home or Pro.

I doubt that Computer USA or any other site is doing it any differently.
For $125, they must be using the customer's XP CD.

As null2006 says, you use the customer's Product Key. Most shops have a
collection of various XP versions to use if the customer has lost their
install media. The license is not tied to the cd-rom; it is tied to the
Product Key. If the machine is an OEM like an HP or Sony, I'll recommend
that the customer get the recovery disks from the OEM (if available).
Otherwise they need to understand that they won't have all the extra
software that came preloaded unless they have the disks for it.

If the customer doesn't have a Product Key and doesn't have a machine from
that sort of OEM or if the customer has an illegal copy of XP, then you
sell them a retail copy. You don't need a volume license for any of this.
You only need special licensing if you are going into business as a system
builder.

Perhaps it is different where you live, but you won't get much business
doing clean installs; the majority of home users and small businesses who
are your target market want to do a clean install only as a last resort.
And in fact, it is usually unnecessary to do a clean install in most cases.

Malke

 

[Chuck Davis]

As null2006 says, you use the customer's Product Key. Most shops have a
collection of various XP versions to use if the customer has lost their
install media. The license is not tied to the cd-rom; it is tied to the
Product Key. If the machine is an OEM like an HP or Sony, I'll recommend
that the customer get the recovery disks from the OEM (if available).
Otherwise they need to understand that they won't have all the extra
software that came preloaded unless they have the disks for it.

If the customer doesn't have a Product Key and doesn't have a machine from
that sort of OEM or if the customer has an illegal copy of XP, then you
sell them a retail copy. You don't need a volume license for any of this.
You only need special licensing if you are going into business as a system
builder.

Perhaps it is different where you live, but you won't get much business
doing clean installs; the majority of home users and small businesses who
are your target market want to do a clean install only as a last resort.
And in fact, it is usually unnecessary to do a clean install in most
cases.

Malke
--
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic"

Malke, I second your statement: "unnecessary to do a clean install in most
cases."
I make "house calls" as a volunteer for our computer club. I have run into
some amazingly messed up computers, e.g., 1,677 malware programs removed by
Ad-aware, 184 viruses removed by the Stinger tool from McAfee.
Interestingly, the 184 viruses were included in files transferred from his
two year old computer that wasn't working well! He didn't need to buy a new
one. His wife now has a computer of her own (his "old" one). Normally, with
2 to 3 hours work, they are restored to their former self. After 6 years of
three times a week on these sessions, I have turned only one computer over
to our clean install expert.

 

[Leythos]

Malke, I second your statement: "unnecessary to do a clean install in most
cases."
I make "house calls" as a volunteer for our computer club. I have run into
some amazingly messed up computers, e.g., 1,677 malware programs removed by
Ad-aware, 184 viruses removed by the Stinger tool from McAfee.
Interestingly, the 184 viruses were included in files transferred from his
two year old computer that wasn't working well! He didn't need to buy a new
one. His wife now has a computer of her own (his "old" one). Normally, with
2 to 3 hours work, they are restored to their former self. After 6 years of
three times a week on these sessions, I have turned only one computer over
to our clean install expert.

If you value your time, a clean install is often cheaper than a repair.
While I could clean a machine in most cases, in less than an hour, I can
also reinstall from scratch in many cases where it takes less time than
cleaning it.

If the infected has backed up their docs to DVD/CD or has already lost
them, or if we can copy them to a portable CD burner (I carry), I can do
a RESTORE from OEM CD's in less time than it takes to clean a machine
properly in most cases.

 

[Malke]

If you value your time, a clean install is often cheaper than a repair.
While I could clean a machine in most cases, in less than an hour, I can
also reinstall from scratch in many cases where it takes less time than
cleaning it.

If the infected has backed up their docs to DVD/CD or has already lost
them, or if we can copy them to a portable CD burner (I carry), I can do
a RESTORE from OEM CD's in less time than it takes to clean a machine
properly in most cases.

Yes, but IIRC you work for a large organization. A university or college,
yes? So your situation is far different from that of us techs servicing
home users and small businesses. I don't disagree with you about it
sometimes taking less time to do a clean install; all I'm saying is that it
depends on the customer base. If the customer knows it will cost more to do
a hand-cleaning (if it will take more time - often it doesn't) and still
wants to try and preserve their installation that's the customer's choice.
My customers know that if a clean install is necessary that's what I'll do,
but I always give them the choice if it exists.

My comments were meant as friendly advice to someone who thinks there is
that much of a business model in just doing clean installs. Maybe there is
where he lives; there isn't here.

Malke

 

[A Programmer]

If you value your time, a clean install is often cheaper than a repair.

Exactly. It often takes much more time to troubleshoot and attempt to
get past all the garbage Microsoft put in to insulate control of the
system from the user to fix a problem than to just go ahead and clean
install.

In fact, I've run into a couple of computers myself where that was the
option that had to happen after the anti-spyware and anti-viral
scanners got done with it because they were so completely messed up by
the software these things picked up.

 

[A Programmer]

I don't disagree with you about it sometimes taking less time to do a clean install; all I'm saying is that it
depends on the customer base. If the customer knows it will cost more to do a hand-cleaning (if it will take
more time - often it doesn't) and still wants to try and preserve their installation that's the customer's choice.

Usually when I work on any computer I make it clear that:

1) To work on the computer, they must be able to produce any media
that came with the computer, with few exceptions made. Very useful to
prepare for the clean install scenario, or to have drivers on hand if
it's necessary to reinstall them.

2) There will always be the potential of losing their data or programs
in the process of fixing whatever problem it is. Or to put it in
shorter terms, a clean install might be necessary. A necessary
precaution since one doesn't know what the malware/virii (the usual
problem these days) have done to the computer or if someone's been
playing through a backdoor. The clean install can often be a
peace-of-mind venture when things like that happen.

3) Since I don't know what kind of time and effort it would take, I
don't quote prices typically until after a problem is at least
identified and the solution is at hand. More honest that way,
especially since you don't know what you'll encounter often times (I
said 2 hours at $70? Sorry, it actually took 4 to fix, that'll be
$280).

My customers know that if a clean install is necessary that's what I'll do,
but I always give them the choice if it exists.

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Usually I just go for the
quickest solution that I know will work.

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

Exactly. It often takes much more time to troubleshoot and attempt to
get past all the garbage Microsoft put in to insulate control of the
system from the user to fix a problem than to just go ahead and clean
install.

My view is exactly the opposite.

This notion stems from the technical support people at many of the larger
OEMs. Their solution to almost any problem they don't quickly know the
answer to is "reformat and reinstall." That's the perfect solution for them.
It gets you off the phone quickly, it almost always works, and it doesn't
require them to do any real troubleshooting (a skill that most of them
obviously don't possess in any great degree).

But it leaves you with all the work and all the problems. You have to
restore all your data backups, you have to reinstall all your programs, you
have to reinstall all the Windows and application updates,you have to locate
and install all the needed drivers for your system, you have to recustomize
Windows and all your apps to work the way you're comfortable with.

Besides all those things being time-consuming and troublesome, you may have
trouble with some of them: can you find all your application CDs? Can you
find all the needed installation codes? Do you have data backups to restore?
Do you even remember all the customizations and tweaks you may have
installed to make everything work the way you like? Occasionally there are
problems that are so difficult to solve that Windows should be reinstalled
cleanly. But they are few and far between; reinstallation should not be a
substitute for troubleshooting; it should be a last resort, to be done only
after all other attempts at troubleshooting by a qualified person have
failed.

And perhaps most important, if your problems stem from something you've done
wrong, or safeguards you haven't put in place (and in the great majority of
cases, it's one or both of those), by clean installing, you never find out
what you did wrong. After clean installing, you're very likely to soon
repeat your errors, and find yourself with the same problems.

 

[R. McCarty]

System Imaging & separate Personal Data backups will reduce the
need to "Fresh" install Windows to Zero. A ~$50 investment for a
Imaging program should be the first application bought and used on
any PC.
Re-installing XP, Apps, customizations and tweaks/tuning are only
tolerable/"Enjoyable?" for the first 823 times you do it.

 

[Ghostrider]

A Programmer wrote:





My view is exactly the opposite.

This notion stems from the technical support people at many of the larger
OEMs. Their solution to almost any problem they don't quickly know the
answer to is "reformat and reinstall." That's the perfect solution for them.
It gets you off the phone quickly, it almost always works, and it doesn't
require them to do any real troubleshooting (a skill that most of them
obviously don't possess in any great degree).

But it leaves you with all the work and all the problems. You have to
restore all your data backups, you have to reinstall all your programs, you
have to reinstall all the Windows and application updates,you have to locate
and install all the needed drivers for your system, you have to recustomize
Windows and all your apps to work the way you're comfortable with.

Besides all those things being time-consuming and troublesome, you may have
trouble with some of them: can you find all your application CDs? Can you
find all the needed installation codes? Do you have data backups to restore?
Do you even remember all the customizations and tweaks you may have
installed to make everything work the way you like? Occasionally there are
problems that are so difficult to solve that Windows should be reinstalled
cleanly. But they are few and far between; reinstallation should not be a
substitute for troubleshooting; it should be a last resort, to be done only
after all other attempts at troubleshooting by a qualified person have
failed.

And perhaps most important, if your problems stem from something you've done
wrong, or safeguards you haven't put in place (and in the great majority of
cases, it's one or both of those), by clean installing, you never find out
what you did wrong. After clean installing, you're very likely to soon
repeat your errors, and find yourself with the same problems.

Primarily as a consultant and manager these days, I counsel
4 things to the IT staff. (a) Partition the hard drive into
separate systems, applications and data drives. (b) Keep an
image file of the computer as it is released to the user.
(c) Routinely service the system and insure that its AV,
Adware and Anti-Spyware definitions are current. And, most
important, (d) Teach the user how to use the computer, esp.
how to backup to what media and to which network.

 

[Leythos]

My view is exactly the opposite.

This notion stems from the technical support people at many of the larger
OEMs. Their solution to almost any problem they don't quickly know the
answer to is "reformat and reinstall." That's the perfect solution for them.
It gets you off the phone quickly, it almost always works, and it doesn't
require them to do any real troubleshooting (a skill that most of them
obviously don't possess in any great degree).

No, there is often a LIABILITY issue that your mindset fails to address.
If a customer brings you a compromised machine, while any number of us
could 'clean' it well enough for our own use, if you returned a machine
to a customer and they could prove it wasn't cleaned and they experience
some real loss, then you can be liable.

When money is concerned, charging the customer, few cleaning events take
less than 1 hour of time, in fact, even a full scan of a typical home
users machine can take several hours and then you most likely didn't get
it all and have to go back and edit the registry, delete folders, etc..

Sometimes it's better for the client to do a wipe/reinstall.

But it leaves you with all the work and all the problems. You have to
restore all your data backups, you have to reinstall all your programs, you
have to reinstall all the Windows and application updates,you have to locate
and install all the needed drivers for your system, you have to recustomize
Windows and all your apps to work the way you're comfortable with.

In most cases you can use the restore CD that was shipped with the
computer, as most people buy a package from Dell or other large vendor.
In the case of a Dell you can install all of the drivers at one time,
without rebooting, and be up and running in under 2 hours (from a fresh
install), and that can also include shipped applications.

Besides all those things being time-consuming and troublesome, you may have
trouble with some of them: can you find all your application CDs? Can you
find all the needed installation codes? Do you have data backups to restore?
Do you even remember all the customizations and tweaks you may have
installed to make everything work the way you like? Occasionally there are
problems that are so difficult to solve that Windows should be reinstalled
cleanly. But they are few and far between; reinstallation should not be a
substitute for troubleshooting; it should be a last resort, to be done only
after all other attempts at troubleshooting by a qualified person have
failed.

Noone said the machine would be restored back to the before compromised
state, but, as you can't tell anyone that the machine is 100% clean,
you've got risks with a 'clean' method vs a wipe/reinstall.

While you might think that you can 'clean' a machine, I'm 100% certain
that you can not clean it of unknown malware 100% of the time.

And perhaps most important, if your problems stem from something you've done
wrong, or safeguards you haven't put in place (and in the great majority of
cases, it's one or both of those), by clean installing, you never find out
what you did wrong. After clean installing, you're very likely to soon
repeat your errors, and find yourself with the same problems.

Most people soon learn, if you tell them what was wrong based on the
malware actions, how to at least increase their chance to survive, those
that don't will be back. The more times they compromise their machine
and have to pay for it (time, money, pain) the more likely they are to
not do it again.

What it comes down too is that sometimes the cost is important,
sometimes the data is important, sometimes the customer is willing to
accept "as clean as can be at this time".

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

No, there is often a LIABILITY issue that your mindset fails to
address. If a customer brings you a compromised machine, while any
number of us could 'clean' it well enough for our own use, if you
returned a machine to a customer and they could prove it wasn't
cleaned and they experience some real loss, then you can be liable.

I'm not talking about service companies and customers. I'm talking about
individuals who think, or are told, they should reinstall Windows cleanly at
the slightest provocation.

When money is concerned, charging the customer, few cleaning events
take less than 1 hour of time, in fact, even a full scan of a typical
home users machine can take several hours and then you most likely
didn't get it all and have to go back and edit the registry, delete
folders, etc..

If you're paying for a fix, there is clearly a different set of things to
consider. I wouldn't want to recommend that someone pay for many hours of
troubleshooting on the hope that he could avoid a clean reinstallation.

Sometimes it's better for the client to do a wipe/reinstall.

Sometimes it's better for anyone, client or not, to do a clean
reinstallation. But when you are talking about an individual, that sometimes
occurs rarely.

In most cases you can use the restore CD that was shipped with the
computer, as most people buy a package from Dell or other large
vendor. In the case of a Dell you can install all of the drivers at
one time, without rebooting, and be up and running in under 2 hours
(from a fresh install), and that can also include shipped
applications.


Noone said the machine would be restored back to the before
compromised state, but, as you can't tell anyone that the machine is
100% clean, you've got risks with a 'clean' method vs a
wipe/reinstall.

While you might think that you can 'clean' a machine, I'm 100% certain
that you can not clean it of unknown malware 100% of the time.

No argument from me. But in most cases, the malware *can* be identified and
cleaning it is easy. Reinstalling is completely unnecessry.

Again, I don't claim that nobody should ever clean install. But it should be
a last resort, not a first line of defense.

And I've seen people who have scanned their machines to find *hundreds* of
malware infestations.In a situation like that, I'd probably choose to clean
install too.

Most people soon learn, if you tell them what was wrong based on the
malware actions,

You're thinking of a tech/customer relationship, but again, I'm talking
about individuals doing clean installations. There's nobody to tell them
anything. If they clean install in response to a problem (and by the way,
that's any kind of problem--I'm not specifically talking about malware) they
almost invariably do it without knowing what the problem was, and learn
nothing.

how to at least increase their chance to survive,
those that don't will be back. The more times they compromise their
machine and have to pay for it (time, money, pain) the more likely
they are to not do it again.

Again, we are talking apples and oranges here. There are no techs and
customers in the scenario I'm talking about. I'm talking about the frequent
recommendation that individuals get to reinstall in response to almost any
kind of problem.

What it comes down too is that sometimes the cost is important,
sometimes the data is important, sometimes the customer is willing to
accept "as clean as can be at this time".

No argument from me, but again, there are no "customers" in the scenario I
was talking about.

 

[Leythos]

No argument from me. But in most cases, the malware *can* be identified and
cleaning it is easy. Reinstalling is completely unnecessry.

Ken, this is a fundamental flaw in your thinking, if you'll permit me to
say, in that Security is first, and since you can not be sure that all
malware is removed, the only solution to "Cleaning" a system 100% is to
wipe/reinstall.

If only the use of the system is important, and not security, then
wipe/reinstall is not necessary as long as the user is fully aware that
the machine COULD still be compromised with unknown malware.

I look at all machines the same, no difference between Home users and
Corporate users - there is really little difference between the Mother
running Quicken to do her bills and the Accountant in ABC Corp doing the
company payroll on a pc, if either is compromised it's a BIG deal to
them.

Most security experts will tell you that a full wipe/reinstall is the
only secure manner to clean a machine, anything else is just getting by.

 

[A Programmer]

it doesn't require them to do any real troubleshooting (a skill that most of them
obviously don't possess in any great degree).

Which often takes much more time. Look at the scan scenario. That
often takes several hours to fully scan and clean a system using most
tools (it takes 3-4 passes with different tools).

But it leaves you with all the work and all the problems. You have to
restore all your data backups, you have to reinstall all your programs, you
have to reinstall all the Windows and application updates,you have to locate
and install all the needed drivers for your system,

Which is often a quicker/easier more fool proof way. Especially with
the scenario of cleaning off a computer, the resulting problems with
that, and the possible liability concerns.

Besides all those things being time-consuming and troublesome, you may have
trouble with some of them: can you find all your application CDs? Can you
find all the needed installation codes? Do you have data backups to restore?

As I said in my other post, no install media and no complete install
media, no work on the computer. And if I were in a corporate
situation, those computers would have all that available, assuming I
had the power to make that happen.

by clean installing, you never find out what you did wrong.

Not my problem anyway. Besides, I find 9 times out of 10 when I have
tried to troubleshoot that if it's not a malware of some kind, the
explanation is usually "oh that's just another windows bug". Many
problems usually happen with most Windows installs simply because of
time more than anything. The cases where it was a "operator problem",
the problem is usually well taken care of in short order.

 

[A Programmer]

I'm not talking about service companies and customers. I'm talking about
individuals who think, or are told, they should reinstall Windows cleanly at
the slightest provocation.

All computers are used by individuals. If I were to work on company
XYZ's computers, I would think it the same as working on Granny
Smith's computer. Same thing and same rules for all, IMO.

If you're paying for a fix, there is clearly a different set of things to
consider. I wouldn't want to recommend that someone pay for many hours of
troubleshooting on the hope that he could avoid a clean reinstallation.

Good. I'm glad you agree with me on this one.

Sometimes it's better for anyone, client or not, to do a clean
reinstallation. But when you are talking about an individual, that sometimes
occurs rarely.

Usually for want of expertise more than anything. With most computers
from individuals I've seen, they're so buggered up anyway that a
reinstall is the only choice.

No argument from me. But in most cases, the malware *can* be identified and
cleaning it is easy. Reinstalling is completely unnecessry.

Agreed except for the cleaning part. You never know what the malware
as done in the system, as with a lot of things, you never know if a
script kiddie has come along and made other changes to the system.
Again much easier to reinstall and be sure than to run 3-4 scanners on
a system and just hope you got it all and then going over all the
settings with a fine toothed comb to make sure nothing was
compromised.

Again, I don't claim that nobody should ever clean install. But it should be
a last resort, not a first line of defense.

Often the first line of defense is a failed one. As I said in another
post, there's often a comfort in certainty as opposed to "well I think
I got it all".

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

All computers are used by individuals.

Sigh. Of course.

If I were to work on company
XYZ's computers, I would think it the same as working on Granny
Smith's computer. Same thing and same rules for all, IMO.

I don't know whether you are just being purposely obtuse, but that entirely
misses my point. I am *not* talking about *you* working on Granny Smith's
computer, I am talking about Granny Smith working on her own computer.