Is Zotob A MS Plot . . . .

[Kerry Brown]

Comments in line

Actually, I am not. Ranting a little perhaps....


Whoa.. Wow... Well, I never... Now this sounds like the other side of
trolling, stating that XP in your case never has any issues. I mean,
you have never encountered a case where the installation of an
application broke some other application or some aspect of XP? It's
very hard to believe.

Of course this hapens. It happens with other OS's as well. I have seen it
happen with Linux and Macs. This is an application issue, not an OS issue.
XP actually handles it better than some. It does try to keep the core OS
files safe.

You must be some of the luckiest inthe world.

I help install, upgrade and "fix" many Windows computers. They all have
had problems, from minor to major over the years.

How many of the problems were the fault of the OS? How many were the fault
of user error, bad applications or drivers?

My own XP development system works best because I am careful. But I
"Windows Udpated" a driver and it caused havoc with Photoshop. Just one
video driver update and "issues".

That is a problem. Anyone with experience never uses Windows Updates (now
Microsoft Updates) to get drivers. Microsoft should either discontinue this
practice or fix it.

There are numerous "turds" left behind by most uninstalled application;
many hardware upgrades leave the previous hardwre drivers in place;
sometimes old/unused drivers and DLLs get loaded unnecessarily; I
turned someones computer on just yesterday and XP decided that its
printer is now "new hardware" and wants to install its (already
installed) drivers -- and I could not prevent that process from
happening -- I had to go through the install process all over again,
the result two printers where there should only have been one.

What other OS do you know of that does this better? Uninstalling a program
is the resonsibility of the program not the OS.

On another computer I ran "Windows Update", re-booted, and not its
Internet access has problems.

I have many more such "issues".

Try this some day: save the state of the system dir and the registry,
install a major Windows application, then un-install it, and then
compare the state of the system dir and the registry. I do this all the
time. 90% of the time SYS or OCX or DLLs are left behind still
registered and shared, and registry entries have not been deleted.

Please explain to me some more about how you maintain your XP/2K boxes.
I honestly want to understand how you have no problems.


P.S. I still think this defrag bit is a myth. Other than performance,
how can which clusters (or whatever the NTFS equiv. is) a program
resides in affect its operation after that program has been loaded into
memory. You've got to explain this in technical detail for me to ever
believe it.

With NTFS you don't have to defrag as often but it will still make a
difference.

Most of your problems with XP are not OS related but user and application
related. Most programmers are lazy and do not write programs that will run
as a limited user. If all programs ran as a limited user and administrator
functions were used for just that most of the problems would go away. This
is a carryover from early versions of Windows. This way of thinking pervades
even Microsoft. Many of their applications don't run properly unless the
user has at least power user permissions. Much of the security of Linux is
because no one ever runs as root. If and when Linux becomes as popular as
Windows and you have so many unsophisticated users it will become as
problematic as Windows. Presently most programmers for Linux are under peer
pressure to write good code. If everyone and their dog started writing for
Linux you would see a lot of the same sloppy code that presently is written
for Windows.

Kerry

 

[Ed]

3) Anyone on the Internet should be behind a firewall - not a NAT
router, a honest to God firewall.

I run ZA Pro on both computers of my home network and a WRT54G
wireless router with latest firmware and built in firewall. They have
done me well in keeping me secure not that I don't also practice Safe
Hex in all other areas.

What do you consider an "honest to God firewall"?

The big problem is, most people, people that don't do newsgroups much
less know what one is or trouble themselves with the state of
computing and computer security, have no idea that most "Real"
firewalls require some informed choices be made by the operator when
it is first installed. ZAP asks if certain things should be granted
access to the network and/or Internet for the first couple of days
after being installed or until most everything that isn't autoconfiged
by ZAP has been run through it for the first time. If the operator has
no earthly idea or doesn't know how to find out......... well.......

Actually, I don't really think most of the computing public even know
what a firewall is much less a virus protection utility or utilities
to thwart ad/spyware. Hell, I know for a fact that most people on
broadband are tied directly into that cable/dsl modem without the
least hint of protection. I wonder if they practice sex the same way?
Scary ain't it?

Regards,
Ed

 

[Dimple Wathen]

I see that

And **** you too.

And many OS's have that issue - they leave all sorts of little parts of
the applications behind. It's no more a problem on XP and any other OS.

But it is a problem nonetheless.

What's to explain, we use our systems for business, our clients use
theirs for business, we maintain a BUNCH of servers, and I personally
have many systems (servers and workstations) in my home - and I even had
three teen kids using them.

And you can not possibly ever not had a problem, as just looking at
Microsft's Knowledge Base describes the numerous problems that occur in
Windows.

That's why you have so many problems with your systems - you don't
understand how they work. There are few applications that just load
their EXE and are done with the drive. Even your browser caches files to
make your experience quicker, same with Word, Exel, Counter-Strike,
etc... The idea you need to understand about disk access is that when
the head has to move without reading data, it's slower and inefficient
if you defrag and pack your files it means that disk access is optimised
and that the drive heads don't have to seek all over the drive without
reading anything.

I was refuting your claim that: "The only constant maintenance a
Windows box needs it a monthly defrag of the drives on a busy system
and to ensure that Windows automatic updates are working."

The entire concept of defraging is one of performance. You said
"maintenence" which I take to mean much more than than. Fragmentation
has nothing to do with causing GPFs for example.

The problem here is that you think that all "problems" with XP are User
problems. Which is a cop out.

XP allows, by design, the installation of device drivers, services,
etc. etc. Since they do that, they should make it more bulletproof.

Yeah, I don't know as much about configuring XP as many other people.
By I *shouldn't have to*.

So you have never installed a printer driver whiched caused XP's
printer spooler to crash? And you've never applied a Windows Update
that did not break some service and then had to un-install the patch
and wait for the second "fix"? And you've never seen "Stop C000021A"
Blue Screen? Etc, Etc.

So, for all the millions of XP users stumbling around Usenet and
countless other forums trying to fixed their many diaparate XP errors,
all you have to say is, "It's your fault."

Excellent philosophy!

*plonk*

 

[Leythos]

What do you consider an "honest to God firewall"?

Many things can be a firewall, but I follow the standards based on
certification tests - not saying it has to be certified, but the testing
that certification provides - the actual things they test for, is what
determines if it's a firewall to me.

While not a full list, some of the things I look for are:

1) outbound access blocked by default

2) inbound access blocked by default

3) Separate ports/networks for LAN and DMZ

4) Ability to create rules based on service type, not just a port

5) Ability for the firewall to know the difference between HTTP on port
80 and non-HTTP traffic on port 80

6) Inability of a compromised computer to change the firewall rules

7) Detailed logs of all traffic, real-time and historical

For businesses I look for a bunch of other features.

For homes I can live with a quality NAT device as long as there is no
inbound and they monitor the logs.

 

[Dimple Wathen]

Of course this hapens. It happens with other OS's as well. I have seen it
happen with Linux and Macs. This is an application issue, not an OS issue.
XP actually handles it better than some. It does try to keep the core OS
files safe.

One can not simply write this off as an "application issue"! 90% of all
Microsoft patches fix design flaws in Windows.

How many of the problems were the fault of the OS? How many were the fault
of user error, bad applications or drivers?

You tell me. Use Microsoft's own KB as a guide. I get a BSOD and its
User Error?????

That is a problem. Anyone with experience never uses Windows Updates (now
Microsoft Updates) to get drivers. Microsoft should either discontinue this
practice or fix it.

And how does one get that experince? By using Windows Update to update
a driver and it breaks something in Windows! Or is it my fault that I
used the Microsoft software "that should be fixed"?

What other OS do you know of that does this better? Uninstalling a program
is the resonsibility of the program not the OS.

1st, we are talking XP, not any other OS. It's a cop out to use the
that argument. Your 2nd point is valid. But Microsoft is the
responsible party in most cases now with its Installer.

[...]

With NTFS you don't have to defrag as often but it will still make a
difference.

To performance. Not to software running without error.

Most of your problems with XP are not OS related but user and application
related. Most programmers are lazy and do not write programs that will run
as a limited user. If all programs ran as a limited user and administrator
functions were used for just that most of the problems would go away. This
is a carryover from early versions of Windows. This way of thinking pervades
even Microsoft. Many of their applications don't run properly unless the
user has at least power user permissions. Much of the security of Linux is
because no one ever runs as root. If and when Linux becomes as popular as
Windows and you have so many unsophisticated users it will become as
problematic as Windows. Presently most programmers for Linux are under peer
pressure to write good code. If everyone and their dog started writing for
Linux you would see a lot of the same sloppy code that presently is written
for Windows.

Kerry

So which is it then? Problems (ones that cause hardware and software to
have fatal errors) are the fault of the User or the Programmer?

 

[Leythos]

And **** you too.


But it is a problem nonetheless.

And it doesn't impact Windows any more than it does anything else - so,
it appears you have a hard-on for Windows and not the actual problem.

And you can not possibly ever not had a problem, as just looking at
Microsft's Knowledge Base describes the numerous problems that occur in
Windows.

Yep, I have problem, but I create most of them. But, as I recall, we
were talking Maintenance, not additions to the system.

I was refuting your claim that: "The only constant maintenance a
Windows box needs it a monthly defrag of the drives on a busy system
and to ensure that Windows automatic updates are working."

The entire concept of defraging is one of performance. You said
"maintenence" which I take to mean much more than than. Fragmentation
has nothing to do with causing GPFs for example.

You can call it performance, but it's a maintenance issue to anyone that
uses it - maintenance ensures performance.

The problem here is that you think that all "problems" with XP are User
problems. Which is a cop out.

No, I think that on a initially stable computer, one that does not have
any problems until it's owner starts making changes and loading unknown
applications, that the users are 85% of the problems - another 10% is
drivers, and the final 5% is windows interaction with the first 95%

XP allows, by design, the installation of device drivers, services,
etc. etc. Since they do that, they should make it more bulletproof.

You're looking at the wrong people - you don't have to install device
drivers that have not been tested. Even my linux boxes have bad device
drivers, you going after Linux too?

The device drivers that ship from noon-MS vendors are always subject to
problems and depends greatly on the vendors QA.

Yeah, I don't know as much about configuring XP as many other people.
By I *shouldn't have to*.

Then don't do it. You don't have to "Configure" XP at any time. You
configure applications.

So you have never installed a printer driver whiched caused XP's
printer spooler to crash?

Nope, and I have about 90 different printers for a wide selection of
printer vendors.

And you've never applied a Windows Update
that did not break some service and then had to un-install the patch
and wait for the second "fix"? And you've never seen "Stop C000021A"
Blue Screen? Etc, Etc.

I've not had any Windows XP Updates cause a BSOD yet, and we have a
large selection of different systems - I'm not saying it doesn't happen,
but it would be interesting to see the specifics of what cause the
problem (and we're talking more than just an update).

So, for all the millions of XP users stumbling around Usenet and
countless other forums trying to fixed their many diaparate XP errors,
all you have to say is, "It's your fault."

An for all the millions of users running XP without a problem, you're
saying that it's not their fault?

People are the variable in almost every problem - installing crapware,
installing unapproved device drivers (and they even get a nice warning
in most cases and still do it), installing two firewalls at the same
time, or two AV products at the same time, or installing the wrong video
driver, or installing file sharing apps without understanding the crap
that is included with them......

Excellent philosophy!

Maybe you just don't understand Computers well enough.

*plonk*

I see you're afraid you might have been wrong - nice.

 

[Kerry Brown]

comments in line

One can not simply write this off as an "application issue"! 90% of all
Microsoft patches fix design flaws in Windows.

You were the one that said "I mean, you have never encountered a case where
the installation of an application broke some other application or some
aspect of XP?" What does this have to do with Windows Updates? That is a
separate issue and yes there are some problems with some updates on some
computers. All os's designed for pc's using x86 architecture have this
problem wth updates. There are too many variables with unknown hardware
configurations to test every possible combination.

You tell me. Use Microsoft's own KB as a guide. I get a BSOD and its
User Error?????

Where did you mention that you were following a KB article?

And how does one get that experince? By using Windows Update to update
a driver and it breaks something in Windows! Or is it my fault that I
used the Microsoft software "that should be fixed"?

No, it's not your fault. We agree on this point. I'm not defending Microsoft
as you seem to think. I am trying to point out that many of your problems
are not directly the fault of Microsoft but of a combination of many things.
Windows XP is just one part of the puzzle albeit a big part.

1st, we are talking XP, not any other OS. It's a cop out to use the
that argument. Your 2nd point is valid. But Microsoft is the
responsible party in most cases now with its Installer.

Have you programmed the Microsoft Installer? It just does what the
programmer tells it to do. You still have to tell it how and what to
uninstall.

[...]

With NTFS you don't have to defrag as often but it will still make a
difference.

To performance. Not to software running without error.

Sorry, I misread your original post, thought you were talking about
performance.

So which is it then? Problems (ones that cause hardware and software to
have fatal errors) are the fault of the User or the Programmer?

A combination of user, application, hardware, and os. If programmers changed
their ways and wrote programs that ran as a limited user two of the above
would be drastically reduced. The user wouldn't have the permissions needed
to cause problems either on their own or by running a bad program. This
would take a major paradigm shift by Microsoft and Windows programmers so I
don't see it happening anytime soon. As Linux or whatever becomes more
prevalent the current crop of Windows programmers will start writing bad
programs for the latest, greatest os and it will have the same problems.
Look at most Windows servers. With Server 2003 a lot of the underlying code
is the same as XP. A properly run server has far less problems than an XP
system. This is mostly due to the fact that the only time anyone ever logs
in with administrator permissions is to do maintenance.

Kerry