Is XP becoming Unuseable?

[John Dingley]

Since the launch of XP, there have been dozens of updates, some of which
cause other problems.

I have also noticed that the time I spend just keeping the O/S running and
in order is getting greater.

The O/S is a tool that is only there to serve the purpose of other
application software that users need or want. It should not be and should
not tend to be an entity in its own right to the exclusion of everything
else.

Observing and contributing to this group over several months I am amazed at
the amount of problems there seem to be. A good portion are user created -
those poor saps that think once they get their computer all they need to do
is install things and use it!! and tend to omit the contant maitenance
that seems to be required. But more worrying there seem to be more and more
problems from people that do all the required maintenance and still have
major problems.

Perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board with this product and
sort out the underlying problems rather that keep sticking on plasters.

 

[Mike Brannigan [MSFT]]

John,

What do you consider "constant maintenance"?
Other then my PCs self updating their anti virus sigs, Windows Update
automatically downloading and installing all critical updates and my disk
defragmenter running on a schedule - I do not do any other "maintenance"
(obviously I backup my data occasionally).
With the exception of my backup all of the processes above are background
and automatic. I could add the backup as automatic too. The only
interruption is the possibility of a reboot required for a critical update.

All of this is done with regular retail software.

What specific areas of your "maintenance" are you having an issue with ?
--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

 

[John Dingley]

Driver updates...

I know you can automate the windows updates, but I wonder how many of us
dare do that, I know even when I manually do a critical update I keep my
fingers crossed hoping my PC will reboot successfully and not start running
like a dog or have other problems.

Since updates can happen daily it requires that I go to the update page and
read the details so that I can evaluate the risk of both the problem and the
potential of the update itself to do harm.

Defragging.... Disk clean up.... Virus updates ( I know this has nothing to
do with the O/S but perhaps if it was not so susceptible to these viruses...

But the main factor is trying to sort out problems when they do occur - this
is very time-consuming and more and more of us are becoming victim to it.

 

[Rob Schneider]

Since the launch of XP, there have been dozens of updates, some of which
cause other problems.

I have also noticed that the time I spend just keeping the O/S running and
in order is getting greater.

The O/S is a tool that is only there to serve the purpose of other
application software that users need or want. It should not be and should
not tend to be an entity in its own right to the exclusion of everything
else.

Observing and contributing to this group over several months I am amazed at
the amount of problems there seem to be. A good portion are user created -
those poor saps that think once they get their computer all they need to do
is install things and use it!! and tend to omit the contant maitenance
that seems to be required. But more worrying there seem to be more and more
problems from people that do all the required maintenance and still have
major problems.

Perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board with this product and
sort out the underlying problems rather that keep sticking on plasters.

I've come to a different conclusion and all this based on hunch and no
analysis/statistics (which I think required).

I see lots of problems which root causes *appearing* (never sure since
so many people don't followup with success reports) to be related to
worms/viruses, lots of user errors, and many questions that would be
answered if they had better training or would read first the
instructions or help files. I'm not seeing lots of "major problems".
We also only see the "problems" and missing are folks who aren't using
the newsgroups to report success, or use newgroups to report problems.
I think this a skewed sample.

It would be real interesting to do a proper analysys of say 10-20000 of
these pointings to figure this out.

Perhaps Microsoft can fund this. I'm would hazard a guess and say they
are doing this already.

 

[Rob Schneider]

Driver updates...

I know you can automate the windows updates, but I wonder how many of us
dare do that, I know even when I manually do a critical update I keep my
fingers crossed hoping my PC will reboot successfully and not start running
like a dog or have other problems.

Works fine for me and everyone that I've personally discussed this with.
"Fingers crossed" is an excellent part of the procedure and for me I
guess it is the key factor in my success. Recommend it for everyone.

Since updates can happen daily it requires that I go to the update page and
read the details so that I can evaluate the risk of both the problem and the
potential of the update itself to do harm.

They don't happen daily, and I have a vague recollection of hearing that
they are doing a monthly cycle (minimum). If you do an automatic
download, you are notified of the change BEFORE installation (so that
you don't have to go look every day) and press Details button to look
before installation. You don't have to go to the update page and read
details like this.

Defragging.... Disk clean up.... Virus updates ( I know this has nothing to
do with the O/S but perhaps if it was not so susceptible to these viruses...

Monthly task at most, and can be scheduled (if user has where-with-all,
and the vast majority do not). Not critical for most people.

But the main factor is trying to sort out problems when they do occur - this
is very time-consuming and more and more of us are becoming victim to it.

Specifically, what are the problems you have experienced in last 4
months and for each what was the root cause?

 

[John Dingley]

It is in most peoples nature to defend what is perceived as an attack. Don't
get me wrong, I am happy with XP Pro on my machines, I just wish I didn't
need to spend so much time keeping it in good order and certainly I wish I
had more faith in the critical updates that are released having been
severely affected by at least one.

The most worrying aspect to me is all the security problems that seem to
arise (reportedly due to fundamental approach in the design) which are
constantly being "attacked/abused" by certain unscrupulous people.

If I had no connection to the web, I would most probably still be using the
initial release without any problems what so ever. But in the real world
most of us are.

Perhaps we should see other responses.

 

[John Dingley]

I never suggested they "happened daily" but if you have not automated the
process you need to check daily.

 

[Rob Schneider]

Yes, you did not say that. Apologies.

But I would suggest that even daily is too often given the risks
demonstrated so far. User choice.

I do think that automating the download, then reacting and deciding to
install or not install, when an update appears, is the "best" approach
considering value of my time vs. risks involved.

Just an opinion. Checking daily is ok for those who want to do that.

 

[Rob Schneider]

John,

Sorry, I didn't perceive this as an attack, and I hope I didn't' sound
defensive.

I'm only saying that I draw a different conclusion and I am suspicious
that the data presented in the NG's are not a valid sample. My personal
annecdotal evidence/sample is that it's very stable and very usable and
frankly I don't use XP ... I use the applications on top of it.

It's a fact that the fundamental approach to the design is open to
question. Nothing new there. That's been argued for years and will be
for years, and for Microsoft's offerings I suspect nothing will change
for many many years. Even Longhorn will have "issues".

Your question is "Is XP becoming Unusable". My view is that we are a
very long way indeed from it being anywhere near "unusable".

 

[Bill Crocker]

Unusable, no. High maintenance, yes! It has become a preoccupation, almost
to the point of obsession, to keep any version of Microsoft Windows
operating smoothly.

Bill Crocker

 

[Guest]

OK. I am a happy camper with XP-Pro. I am a granny. I
installed XP-Pro (clean install) on a Compaq on 12/27/01
(all by myself) and we are totaly up to date with service
packs, and have not had to repair or reinstall XP since
that date.

Updates shouldn't be piled on. If they give a problem, and
they are a security update, just undo it and tighten up
the security on the comptuer in question until the problem
is resolved. Then try again. Don't ever use system restore
to undo a service pack (big problems there). Keep drivers
that work, experiment when you have time, and that is what
does it for me. Oh, and people need to learn how to use
the Event Viewer and Help & Support Center - has tons of
info. And if you don't understand something, google around
until you do.

That is my solution. Keep it simple. Don't fret. And if it
ain't broke, don't fix it.Learn about security. Get to
know your computer, your security software, and use Help &
Support, use Help in any Windows Component, and if MS has
more help to add to the help they already have, download
it too so you know what the new stuff does. That's it.
It's not that complicated, and taking care of things
becomes second nature and doesn't consume a lot of time.
Computers do so much already, and people still complain. I
think they all need to go back to the pre AT and XT clone
days and know what it means to have to really deal with a
computer. They got is much easier these days with XP that
does a whole lot more for them than they realize.

ANyways, that's my opinion.

 

[Bill James]

I think a person's perception of the frequency of problems can be skewed if based only on newsgroup postings, since the millions who have no problems are never going to hunt out the group and post a statement to that effect. The frequency of problems from updates is very small and the vast majority of computers/users never experience a problem when Critical Updates are installed automatically.

Microsoft has made a major policy decision starting this month, to release most updates once per month except for those determined to be a major immediate threat, and to include more information about the update, possible consequences and recovery. I like that because I have hundreds of computers to maintain at work which require a change approval and off hours installation of updates, but this will also help individuals who feel the need to research updates before applying them.

Yes, the OS is there to provide a platform for other software, but the programmers of the add-on software have to take the responsibility of making sure it will work with the existing OS, and users need to be responsible for making sure any new software is compatible with the OS they are installing it on. There is a great deal of poorly written software on the market, some from big name software companies, and a lot of crap freeware that can be downloaded and installed that has not had adequate testing. Most car owners would not even dream of taking a fuel additive that was being passed out on the street corner and dumping it into their gas tank, or driving over debris in the road, but many don't put the same forethought and caution into using their computers. Problems are also often created by add-on hardware. The vast majority of blue screen crashes in XP are caused by third party drivers for hardware -- if that hardware has been released since the OS, it's clear to me where the responsibility lies.

The concept of going back to the drawing board with the existing product is not practical since there are millions of existing installations which still have to be kept patched, and millions of lines of code to examine. The OS code is so complex that complete testing of every possible scenario at every possible branch in the code, with all possible hardware and software combinations, would prevent the OS from ever being released. The same limitations apply to patching the OS. This situation is not unique to Microsoft or Windows, the various Linux distros have updates released in a constant flow and require more effort to install. Risks in Linux are just not as newsworthy because they effect a smaller number of people, and Linux users are more likely to be geeky types who just figure it out on their own.

--

Bill James
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User

Win9x VBScript Utilities » www.billsway.com/vbspage/
Windows Tweaks & Tips » www.billsway.com/notes_public/

 

[~ Free Spirit ~]

Since the launch of XP, there have been dozens of updates, some of which
cause other problems.

-------respectful brevity snip.

I heard about so many problems with W-XP from friends and acquaintances that
I shuddered when I knew we needed a new PC. No one, not one person I knew
claimed they liked XP, although they seemed to like one feature or another.
Example: thumbnails in WE.

I asked the people at CompUSA if I could somehow get a new PC with W98SE
installed. I still have my old W98 CD. They said that wasn't possible. I
was STUCK with XP whether I wanted it or not. Sure as God made made little
apples we've had nothing but one niggling problem after another since we
brought this PC home.

We never had a problem with W98SE. The only maintenance we did on the old
PC was run RegClean, scandisk, defrag and dump all the "garbage" every 2
weeks. We can't even get Spybot to work on this PC. EZ CD Creator wont
work on it and they wanted us to BUY Roxio's new version for $100 that would
work with XP. Never happen. We'll continue to burn our music CDs on the
old PC. We have no idea if RegClean will work on XP, and there doesn't seem
to be a scandisk to catch disk errors. We're not happy with W-XP home
addition at all.

FS.......

 

[~ Free Spirit ~]

Unusable, no. High maintenance, yes! It has become a preoccupation, almost
to the point of obsession, to keep any version of Microsoft Windows
operating smoothly.

============================
We must have been extremely lucky with our 3 year old HP w/W98SE installed
when we bought it. It almost never locked up or crashed. Everything we
installed worked and worked right. Maintenance took about an hour ever few
weeks (dump the temp files, the temp internet files, old email, the recycle
bin, etc, .... we'd run scandisk, defrag and Regclean - that was it! Once
in awhile we'd run Norton's WinDr and it would catch an invalid shortcut or
something.

I wish the stores gave people the option of what OS they wanted installed on
their new PCs.

FS.......

 

[Jan]

Since the launch of XP, there have been dozens of updates, some of which
cause other problems.

I have also noticed that the time I spend just keeping the O/S running and
in order is getting greater.

The O/S is a tool that is only there to serve the purpose of other
application software that users need or want. It should not be and should
not tend to be an entity in its own right to the exclusion of everything
else.

Observing and contributing to this group over several months I am amazed at
the amount of problems there seem to be. A good portion are user created -
those poor saps that think once they get their computer all they need to do
is install things and use it!! and tend to omit the contant maitenance
that seems to be required. But more worrying there seem to be more and more
problems from people that do all the required maintenance and still have
major problems.

Perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board with this product and
sort out the underlying problems rather that keep sticking on plasters.

Ditto here, much of time spent on my machine is spent updating av and
installing patches.

Jan

 

[Brian]

I always take a deep breath when I see a "Critical updates are ready to
download" notice. Almost every time I do accept the download, I have
problems and have to go through 3-4 re-boots, defragging and running Bootvis
to get it back to a clean boot status.
Maybe it's due to the fact that I am running XP Pro on a PIII 450 with 256
MB but once these probs are cleared it runs just fine. I download and run
plenty of other packages without incident but those critical updates are
just hell.

Brian