Is there a one correspondence between sockets on matherboard and channels, which are shown in the De


L

Lev G

There are 4 sockets for connecting SATA drives on my computer’s matherboard.
(There are no sockets for connecting ATA drives there because this is a
relatively new computer.) When you open the Device Manager (under WinXP),
then under IDE ATA / ATAPI controllers you can see four lines: two are
called Primary IDE Channel, the other two - Secondary IDE Channel. Is that
the old terminology? After all there are no Master and Slave (Primary and
Secondary) drives for SATA drives. (The same terminology - Master and
Slave - you can see when the computer starts and the BIOS displays its
information.) And another question: Is there a one correspondence between
sockets on matherboard and channels, which are shown in the Device Manager?
Where can I read about it?
 
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P

Paul

Lev said:
There are 4 sockets for connecting SATA drives on my computer’s
matherboard. (There are no sockets for connecting ATA drives there
because this is a relatively new computer.) When you open the Device
Manager (under WinXP), then under IDE ATA / ATAPI controllers you can
see four lines: two are called Primary IDE Channel, the other two -
Secondary IDE Channel. Is that the old terminology? After all there are
no Master and Slave (Primary and Secondary) drives for SATA drives. (The
same terminology - Master and Slave - you can see when the computer
starts and the BIOS displays its information.) And another question: Is
there a one correspondence between sockets on matherboard and channels,
which are shown in the Device Manager? Where can I read about it?

If you need to dump the contents of Device Manager, there is a utility
called DevCon that can do it. The page here, gives easy access to
a version that runs under 32 bit Windows. Finding the 64 bit version,
for usage with more modern Windows, is a chore. The main advantage of
using DevCon, is easy copy/paste - the utility doesn't give any
more info than Device Manager does. It's just easier to copy.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;Q311272

*******

I have an ICH9, with six SATA ports.

In the BIOS, I have some options for the operating mode of the ports.
If I switch them to AHCI at the current time, WinXP won't boot, so
I can't really do any demonstration/testing of such features. My SATA ports
are set to IDE mode, and run "Native", meaning they appear in the
PCI bus address space. Now, while I had expected six channels to
show up, I see only four related to Intel. Which is a little weird.
As far as I know, all six ports work, and I occasionally use close
to all the SATA cables. In any case, you can see the labeling they use,
which is "Primary_IDE_Channel". When in fact, the 2920 and 2926 are SATA
controllers. The Primary_IDE_Channel is just a label in WinXP, whereas
the BIOS (which is based on ancient standards), might need such labeling
as a crutch for successful operation.

For whatever reason, only four of six channels showed up for my Intel ICH9R.

PCIIDE\IDECHANNEL\4&2B025FD5&0&0
Name: Primary IDE Channel
Hardware ID's:
Intel-2926
Primary_IDE_Channel
*PNP0600
Compatible ID's:
*PNP0600
PCIIDE\IDECHANNEL\4&2B025FD5&0&1
Name: Secondary IDE Channel
Hardware ID's:
Intel-2926
Secondary_IDE_Channel
*PNP0600
Compatible ID's:
*PNP0600
PCIIDE\IDECHANNEL\4&C98DF0A&0&0
Name: Primary IDE Channel
Hardware ID's:
Intel-2920
Primary_IDE_Channel
*PNP0600
Compatible ID's:
*PNP0600
PCIIDE\IDECHANNEL\4&C98DF0A&0&1
Name: Secondary IDE Channel
Hardware ID's:
Intel-2920
Secondary_IDE_Channel
*PNP0600
Compatible ID's:
*PNP0600

I think this is my Jmicron chip. These would be for up to
two disks on an actual IDE ribbon cable. Currently one
disk is connected to this.

PCIIDE\IDECHANNEL\5&15F80DBE&0&0
Name: Primary IDE Channel
Hardware ID's:
197b-2368
Primary_IDE_Channel
*PNP0600
Compatible ID's:
*PNP0600
PCIIDE\IDECHANNEL\5&15F80DBE&0&1
Name: Secondary IDE Channel
Hardware ID's:
197b-2368
Secondary_IDE_Channel
*PNP0600
Compatible ID's:
*PNP0600

*******

The SATA controllers are here. These are also in the "IDE ATA/ATAPI Controllers"
section of device manager. They are split into a four port and a two port,
in case the BIOS mode is set to "Compatible". Perhaps in that case, the four
port appears like two ribbon cables, to an older OS like Win98. When in
"Enhanced" mode, the distinction between these two isn't that important.
On some chipsets, there are differences in device support between these
things, such that optical drive booting doesn't work on one of them.
I'm not aware of any problem like that with ICH9/ICH9R. Some older
chipsets from other manufacturers, treated their two controllers
differently.

PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2920&SUBSYS_82771043&REV_02\3&11583659&0&FA
Name: Intel(R) ICH9R/DO/DH 4 port Serial ATA Storage Controller 1 - 2920
Hardware ID's:
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2920&SUBSYS_82771043&REV_02
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2920&SUBSYS_82771043
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2920&CC_01018F
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2920&CC_0101
Compatible ID's:
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2920&REV_02
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2920
PCI\VEN_8086&CC_01018F
PCI\VEN_8086&CC_0101
PCI\VEN_8086
PCI\CC_01018F
PCI\CC_0101

PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2926&SUBSYS_82771043&REV_02\3&11583659&0&FD
Name: Intel(R) ICH9 Family 2 port Serial ATA Storage Controller 2 - 2926
Hardware ID's:
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2926&SUBSYS_82771043&REV_02
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2926&SUBSYS_82771043
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2926&CC_010185
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2926&CC_0101
Compatible ID's:
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2926&REV_02
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2926
PCI\VEN_8086&CC_010185
PCI\VEN_8086&CC_0101
PCI\VEN_8086
PCI\CC_010185
PCI\CC_0101

********

The above two sections of DevCon output, correspond to this
Device Manager output (edited for readability). What's interesting
to me at least, is two ports from the 2920 are missing, in terms
of defining channels. I'd have to go into the BIOS, to review
the settings again. As far as I know, all the SATA ports work.
I'd have to shut down and add another disk, to see if any
additional ones show up.

IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers

Intel ICH9 Family 2 port Serial ATA Storage Controller 2926
Intel ICH9R 4 port Serial ATA Storage Controller 2920
Primary IDE Channel <--- Intel 2926
Primary IDE Channel <--- Intel 2920
Primary IDE Channel <--- Jmicron 2368
Secondary IDE Channel <--- Intel 2926
Secondary IDE Channel <--- Intel 2920
Secondary IDE Channel <--- Jmicron 2368
Standard Dual Channel PCI IDE Controller <--- JMicron 2368 controller

The description (Master/Slave) and capabilities (UDMA 5) are
fake. When transferring data, there is no Master/Slave on
SATA. There is Port Multiplexing available, with FIS switching,
but since nobody I know owns a Port Multiplexer, there really
isn't any Device Manager info to look at for that case. A
SATA port can host up to 15 drives or so, with the proper
downstream hardware. (Silicon Image makes a chip that support
five hard drives that way.) As far as I know, SAS can have a large
fanout like that as well. Most conventional SATA style usage,
is one disk per cable. That's what most people are familiar with.
The transfer rate, goes as fast as the cable will allow (about
500MB/sec+ on SATA III), so the UDMA5 labeling is false.

*******

The best document on the subject, which was written when SATA
was introduced for an Intel chipset, is here. This will help
explain some of the modes they use. And how Intel arranged
"Compatible" mode so that Win98 would boot. Page 13
is the best part. Intel arranged things, so the hardware
could either be accessed in IOSpace, or in PCI space. And
an older OS would be looking for the disks in the IOSpace
(i.e. if you expected OS installation to work from the CD).

(Previously listed as doc 252671, for ICH5 era.)

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/manual/82801eb-82801er-serial-ata-manual.pdf

HTH,
Paul
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

Some (possibly all?) mobos have the option of making SATA _look_ like
(E)IDE. In many cases it's even the default.
I don't understand this question. Even in Australia "correspondence"
is acommunication between people through writings.
[]
No, that's only one of the meanings of that word. Lev might have left
out a word - the phrase he meant was "one to one correspondence" - but
if you put correspondence into, for example, the search box on
http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/, you'll get something like

correspondence noun 1 similarity; equivalence. 2 agreement. 3 a
communication by letters; b the letters received or sent.

Lev meant meaning 1, or possibly 2; you only know 3a. Though you might
still know it - "corresponds to" relates to meanings 1 and 2,
"corresponds with" is more likely to relate to meaning 3.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"... four Oscars, and two further nominations ... On these criteria, he's
Britain's most successful film director." Powell or Pressburger? no; Richard
Attenborough? no; Nick Park!
 
M

micky

No, that's only one of the meanings of that word. Lev might have left
out a word - the phrase he meant was "one to one correspondence" - but
if you put correspondence into, for example, the search box on
http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/

This looks like a British dictionary. Right? I keep meaning to look
for one, online. I googled iirc and I don't think I found this one.
Do you recommend any other? I need one fairly often.
 
J

JJ

David H. Lipman said:
When you look at Device Manager and see IDE ATA/ATAPI you arte looking
at the hard disk controller chip set. It will either provide PATA or
SATA interfaces or both.

My SATA controllers are not in IDE mode, but in Device Manager, its
property also shows a disabled section for a slave device. Does it means
that, that section is used when the controller is in IDE mode? My BIOS
doesn't have any setting for changing the SATA's IDE mode though.

Screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/UjTUhqM.png
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

(I'd have replied by email but wasn't sure which bits to delete.)

micky said:
This looks like a British dictionary. Right? I keep meaning to look
for one, online. I googled iirc and I don't think I found this one.
Do you recommend any other? I need one fairly often.

Chambers is Scottish, I think. THE dictionary is the OED
(http://www.oed.com/), but isn't free, though I think some of the
smaller Oxford ones might be - hang on: http://oxforddictionaries.com/
has a free box. There's also Collins.http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/correspondence gives the
"agreement" sense first, too, so it isn't just a British English thing.
 
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P

Paul

JJ said:
My SATA controllers are not in IDE mode, but in Device Manager, its
property also shows a disabled section for a slave device. Does it means
that, that section is used when the controller is in IDE mode? My BIOS
doesn't have any setting for changing the SATA's IDE mode though.

Screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/UjTUhqM.png

You have a primary and a secondary. Are both your drives accounted for ?
Maybe the channel isn't populated, if no drive is present.

Paul
 
G

glee

JJ said:
My SATA controllers are not in IDE mode, but in Device Manager, its
property also shows a disabled section for a slave device. Does it
means
that, that section is used when the controller is in IDE mode? My BIOS
doesn't have any setting for changing the SATA's IDE mode though.

Screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/UjTUhqM.png

It's not disabled, it's simply not in use.... there is no device (drive)
connected to the second SATA port, so it is greyed out in the Device
Manager properties.
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

There are 4 sockets for connecting SATA drives on my computer’s
matherboard. (There are no sockets for connecting ATA drives there
because this is a relatively new computer.) When you open the Device
Manager (under WinXP), then under IDE ATA / ATAPI controllers you can
see four lines: two are called Primary IDE Channel, the other two -
Secondary IDE Channel. Is that the old terminology? After all there are
no Master and Slave (Primary and Secondary) drives for SATA drives. (The
same terminology - Master and Slave - you can see when the computer
starts and the BIOS displays its information.) And another question: Is
there a one correspondence between sockets on matherboard and channels,
which are shown in the Device Manager? Where can I read about it?

SATA usually defaults to IDE compatibility mode. So that the same
drivers can be used in the OS. Even though the actual arrangement has no
such thing as master or slave. They just designate one as master and one
as slave, and one as channel 1 and one as channel 2, etc. As for whether
there is a standard configuration of SATA port to IDE port arrangements,
the answer is no. Each mobo maker decides it with the arrangement of
their motherboard circuitry. But it really doesn't matter to XP or later
Windows, as you can boot from any drive in any order, whether it's
designated channel 1 or 2, or master or slave.

Now, if you want to see the real arrangement of ports, then you'll want
to convert over to the native SATA mode, called AHCI mode. Really, IDE
mode is known as the ATA 7 standards, while AHCI mode is known as the
ATA 8 standards. When you change the BIOS settings to use either IDE
compatibility mode or AHCI, that's all you're doing, you're changing the
BIOS to use either ATA 7 or 8.

Yousuf Khan
 
G

glee

Yousuf Khan said:
SATA usually defaults to IDE compatibility mode. So that the same
drivers can be used in the OS. Even though the actual arrangement has
no such thing as master or slave. They just designate one as master
and one as slave, and one as channel 1 and one as channel 2, etc. As
for whether there is a standard configuration of SATA port to IDE port
arrangements, the answer is no. Each mobo maker decides it with the
arrangement of their motherboard circuitry. But it really doesn't
matter to XP or later Windows, as you can boot from any drive in any
order, whether it's designated channel 1 or 2, or master or slave.

Now, if you want to see the real arrangement of ports, then you'll
want to convert over to the native SATA mode, called AHCI mode.
Really, IDE mode is known as the ATA 7 standards, while AHCI mode is
known as the ATA 8 standards. When you change the BIOS settings to use
either IDE compatibility mode or AHCI, that's all you're doing, you're
changing the BIOS to use either ATA 7 or 8.

But don't switch the BIOS back and forth between modes and boot the
already-installed Windows operating system.... you will likely get a
blue screen Stop Error at that point.
 
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J

JJ

Paul said:
You have a primary and a secondary. Are both your drives accounted for
? Maybe the channel isn't populated, if no drive is present.

Paul

My board provides 4 SATA ports. Port1 is for HDD, and Port2 is for DVD.
Port1 & Port2 are provided from SATA controller #1 as shown in
screenshot. The DVD is shown in the Master section of the Secondary
Channel (not shown in screenshot).

Port2 & Port3 are unused and there's another SATA controller entry in
Device Manager which is the second SATA controller. All Master and Slave
sections in its property dialog are blank and disabled.

What I'm a bit confused is... why are there sections for Slave devices
for SATA controllers' property? AFAIK, basically, all SATA devices are
masters and none can be assigned as slaves. One SATA controller can only
control two devices from its two ports. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
P

Paul

JJ said:
My board provides 4 SATA ports. Port1 is for HDD, and Port2 is for DVD.
Port1 & Port2 are provided from SATA controller #1 as shown in
screenshot. The DVD is shown in the Master section of the Secondary
Channel (not shown in screenshot).

Port2 & Port3 are unused and there's another SATA controller entry in
Device Manager which is the second SATA controller. All Master and Slave
sections in its property dialog are blank and disabled.

What I'm a bit confused is... why are there sections for Slave devices
for SATA controllers' property? AFAIK, basically, all SATA devices are
masters and none can be assigned as slaves. One SATA controller can only
control two devices from its two ports. Correct me if I'm wrong.

SATA doesn't have Master and Slave.

But a SATA port can have more than one disk connected. That can be
done with Port Multiplexing. For example, using this device, one
SATA port can control five disks. I don't know how, or if, the OS
is prepared for that or not. (This works, as long as the SATA host
port has FIS - see second link.)

http://www.cooldrives.com/cosapomubrso.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_multiplier

The thing is, when SATA was created, not all parts of the PC
architecture changed instantly to handle the new characteristics.
That's why you can still find references to Master and Slave
in interfaces, and also references to UDMA5, when such things
no longer exist from a practical perspective. A SATA port transfers
as fast as it can, and isn't limited by any "UDMA5" you may see
listed as a characteristic.

And at least on an Intel Southbridge, the hardware was set up to
"emulate" a ribbon cable, so to the software, perhaps it can't even
tell the difference. And that's why there are still Master and Slave
labels.

In Device Manager, doing Properties and looking at "Hardware ID" value,
helps you track down what is what. Or using "devcon.exe" allows you to
do that as well.

Paul
 
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M

micky

(I'd have replied by email but wasn't sure which bits to delete.)



Chambers is Scottish, I think. THE dictionary is the OED
(http://www.oed.com/), but isn't free, though I think some of the
smaller Oxford ones might be - hang on: http://oxforddictionaries.com/
has a free box. There's also Collins.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/correspondence gives the
"agreement" sense first, too, so it isn't just a British English thing.

It's farily rare that people on either side of the pond aren't at
least aquainted with popular usage on the other side.

One interesting word is government, which in the US means anyone in
the esecutive, legistlative, or judicial branch, down to the guy who
sweeps the sidewalk in a federal park or types in a Federal Trade
Commission or district court office. State government is similar but
at the state level.

But in Britain I gather it means only the Prmie Minister and his
coalition, and maybe those who leave office when the PM does. Well, I
really don't know.
 

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