Is it possible to build a silent computer, without fans at all? What case should I buy?

[kony]

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

We had moved on to your stupid pig ignorant claims about
there needing to be chassis airflow to avoid premature failure.

.... and your supposed evidence of a system that has not
achieved 1/3rd of it's expected lifespan as a proof it won't
prematurely fail. How hard is it to see the error there?

 

[Rod Speed]

Again this has not been established,

Neither has your mindless assertion that without chassis airflow you will get a reduced lifespan.

unless it's conceded that you have no reasonable expectation it will have a normal lifespan.
Pathetic.

Straight to the point, it will run significantly hotter

You dont now that either.

among parts known to have shorter lifespans from running hot.

Or that either.

So you have water block cooled some parts, but those are not
the parts that typically fail sooner from heat relatied stresses.

Pig ignorant drivel.

You can continue to assume the temp is ok,

And you can get real radical and actually measure it too.

but nevertheless the fact remains that it does
degrade the parts faster at the inevitably higher temp.

You aint even established that there is a higher temp.

Let alone whether a marginal increase in temperature, even
*IF* its measure to occur, will have any affect on lifespan whatever.

You might find this an acceptable tradeoff, but
denial does not diminish that it is a tradeoff.

You in spades with your stupid pig ignorant claim that its only
possible to have acceptible temperatures using chassis airflow.

It happens to be perfectly possible to have acceptible temps
for the motherboard components using convection instead.

 

[Rod Speed]

... and your supposed evidence of a system that
has not achieved 1/3rd of it's expected lifespan

You've just plucked that out of your arse, as always when you're
in over your head down that hole you keep furiously digging.

as a proof it won't prematurely fail.

Never ever did anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

How hard is it to see the error there?

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

 

[Ken Maltby]

Again this has not been established, unless it's conceded
that you have no reasonable expectation it will have a
normal lifespan.

Straight to the point, it will run significantly hotter
among parts known to have shorter lifespans from running
hot.

Ok, that does it.
Just how do you figure that the Regulator chips that were
being "cooled" by the forced air coming off the CPU, will
run Hotter if they are instead cooled by a waterblock?

All the other components of the system that had a design
requirement for a certain volume of moving air having also
now been converted to watercooling, the rest of the
system's electronics will run at normal non destructive,
non damaging, temperatures. There is a normal convection
current created by the other components, that are still
warmer than the incoming air, though they are now cooler
than before the water cooling (due to their no longer being
exposed to the hot air off the components that are now water
cooled or any heat build-up due to that hot air filling the box).

So you have water block cooled some parts, but those
are not the parts that typically fail sooner from heat
relatied stresses.

Total BS. Why do you think the designers/engineers
put those heatsinks and your precious fans on those very
parts? Why are these other parts you are alluding to, without
any such heat protection?

You can continue to assume the temp is ok, but nevertheless
the fact remains that it does degrade the parts faster at
the inevitably higher temp.

What fact? Your statement? My actual experience is that the
MB and its components are noticeably cooler.

There is no higher temperature, in fact things are much cooler
in the box than it ever was with fans. It is simply room temp.,
except a degree or two higher right next to some parts. The heat
off my old CRT monitor was many, many times what even the box
on fans would put out. All of my stereo boxes are hotter, my
DirecTiVo box even with it's fan is hotter than this water cooled
PC. All of those boxes have capacitors and voltage regulation
chips, in them as well, none of them have failed yet.

 

[kony]

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:57:53 -0600, "Ken Maltby"

There is no higher temperature, in fact things are much cooler
in the box than it ever was with fans.

You have not described any method of cooling that would
result in this, rather mismeasurements of a heatsink and
rejection of the effects on capacitors.

Not all "things" have to run cooler, but specific parts
prone to failure need active chassis airflow in the type of
system you have built.

 

[The poster formerly known as Colleyville Alan]

Hello!
Is it possible to build a silent computer, without fans at all? What
case should I buy?
Best regards,
Dima
+790350938

This is a great site dedicated to building quiet PCs, including some with
fanless designs...

http://www.silentpcreview.com

 

[Ken Maltby]

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:57:53 -0600, "Ken Maltby"




You have not described any method of cooling that would
result in this, rather mismeasurements of a heatsink and
rejection of the effects on capacitors.

The water cooling, as I have it implemented, removes the
heat not only from the specific component, and from the
case but also from the room. Your fans can remove a
lessor amount of heat from the component, and dump it
into the air inside the case. Much, but not all, of the heat
will then be expelled from the case, into the room, to be
sucked back into the case. In addition any air within the
watercooled system that encounters the other five surfaces
of a waterblock, will give up some of its heat, as well.
I think it's inevitable that such water cooling will lower the
temps. inside the case.

You claim my measurement is a "mismeasurement"
because it doesn't provide the "die temperature" of the
chips involved. Setting aside that I never claimed that it
would, just which make and model of such chips even
have a provision to measure the die temperature? (Not a
bad idea, but I've never heard of any.) But you must
know of some, else where did you come up with the
high die temperature you say the chips must be operating
at.

Perhaps then I can run an experiment to see how it
could be that blowing hot air over the chips will keep
them cooler than water cooling them will, as you keep
claiming. Or for that matter, cooler than the essentially
ambient temp. measured at the base of the heatsink.

Surely, if you expect the moving hot air to carry away
any heat from the chip, you must admit that an effective
amount of the heat produced by the chip is able to pass
through its ceramic casing. Is the heat only able to get
through if it somehow knows there will be fan driven
moving air, waiting on the other side of the chip's
packaging? Can't you also admit that it would also
pass into the heatsink (for the measurement I took)
and/or into a waterblock?

I would also like to know how it is that your moving
air is going to extract much heat form a heatsink that is
essentially at ambient temp.? Or why you would think
it needs to?

Not all "things" have to run cooler, but specific parts
prone to failure need active chassis airflow in the type of
system you have built.

Ah, your "specific parts prone to failure", again. Could
you be a little more specific about what parts they may be?

We know you are not talking about the parts that the MB
designers applied thermal protection measures to, in my
description they are all being water cooled.

Is it your "capacitors wear out" theory? Bye the way
such components "Derate", not wear out.
http://www.interfacebus.com/Component_Derating_Guide_line.html
http://www.interfacebus.com/How_to_Derate_Capacitor.html

My son still uses a Pioneer Stereo Receiver that I picked up
in Na Trang in '72, it has plenty of capacitors in it and if they
derate, you could actually hear an effect. It plays as great as
ever ( well the sound quality is as great as ever, the kid's
idea of music, is another matter.) Over 34 years, is that long
enough for you? I feel it is a significantly longer lifespan than
any PC I'll ever have.

Luck;
Ken

 

[Ashton Crusher]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they are the correct figures. I put my fingers
on the heat sink and it feels room temp. The northbridge has no fan
and with my finger on it you can tell it's hotter then room temp. I
also ran it for a while with the fan disconnected to see how quickly
it heated up and it heated up slowly but did heat up some. The
difference between running the fan full speed and at the lowest speed
only seems to be 3 degrees C.

 

[Ashton Crusher]

I went ahead and put the duct in since it was there. Kind of a pain
but it's not like I will be in there all that often. I'm pretty
impressed by the basic design of the case, it's easy to install stuff
into and can't beat the price.

 

[jameshanley39]

If high performance is not an issue:

http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/

I bet that's what was whisperpc (.co.uk) !!

 

[GT]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they are the correct figures. I put my fingers
on the heat sink and it feels room temp. The northbridge has no fan
and with my finger on it you can tell it's hotter then room temp. I
also ran it for a while with the fan disconnected to see how quickly
it heated up and it heated up slowly but did heat up some. The
difference between running the fan full speed and at the lowest speed
only seems to be 3 degrees C.

Ahh - are these temperatures when the CPU is under load or sitting idle,
because at idle it probably has power saving measures to reduce consumption
and thereby cut temperatures. Let it run a 100% load test (3D test perhaps)
for 5-10 minutes and see what the temperature is *during* that. I expect it
will cool down again pretty rapidly after it finishes.

 

[k]

I once built a system with a heavily damped case and dryer vent hose
to carry the hot air and noise elsewhere. Wasn't silent, but was a
lot quieter than before. Got tired of tripping over the hose and
switched to a laptop who's fan didn't run much.
mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks mike!
Is there a laptop with two vga outputs with different resolutions?
Best regards,
Dima

 

[jameshanley39]

It doesn't work fine, boards die early because of it, unless
a paritcularly low powered CPU such that the generated heat
is similarly low... or towards the same end, the system is
just sitting idle with ACPI/Halt-cooling drastically
reducing current.



Possible given the right combination of parts, AND setup,
yes. Possible in general without special measures, no.
Also given these special measures it will still be likely
the system suffers an early demise from running hot.



Actually none of the existing fanless PSU do well in a
system with no fans, like a board they end up relying on the
passive airflow created by the case fans. The only other
viable alternative is a specially designed, extremely low
power system.

now you can get 300W or 400W regular sized, power supplies with
heatsinks on the outside. I haven't tried them, but surely they use
convection, and not air from case fans, to cool off .

Before then, all I found available were little 250w power supplies,
and similarly low wattage "power supply cards". The former, I was
told, needed a fan blowing air over them. The latter, (both available
models) had a noisy transformer issue. Both are now irrelevant thanks
to regular sized properly powered fanless PSUs.

are you referring to the "newer" regular sized ones?

I haven't tried them yet,
Regarding power supplies that you've found, haven't cooled off well
without a case fan. How did you detect that? Did you stick a
thermometer in there? What temp did you get - or did it just feel hot?
Did it effect the Volts on the rails - how?

<snip>

 

[kony]

The water cooling, as I have it implemented, removes the
heat not only from the specific component, and from the
case but also from the room. Your fans can remove a
lessor amount of heat from the component, and dump it
into the air inside the case. Much, but not all, of the heat
will then be expelled from the case, into the room, to be
sucked back into the case.

Room temp is insignificant unless we assume every computer
room has a significant rise from having the computer in it.
You are contrasting a trivially lower (perhaps 10C) chassis
air temp and active chassis airflow to cool OTHER parts, to
no airflow. Airflow makes far more difference than this
chassis vs ambient difference. If you don't believe it,
take off your water block on your CPU, put only a passive
heatsink on it and let's see how it fares in a board laying
out in a room that stays the same temp, versus having a fan
on it in a case. We both know the passive option is hotter.

In addition any air within the
watercooled system that encounters the other five surfaces
of a waterblock, will give up some of its heat, as well.

You are trying hard to stretch negligable things into an
argument. There is not nearly high enough surface ara on
the waterblock, the waterblock is HEATED from the part it is
cooling, and the temp difference between chasssis ambient
and waterblock is not only minor, but the waterblock
would've even been HOTTER than the case if only you had a
fan in the system, so you somewhat have it backwards.

I think it's inevitable that such water cooling will lower the
temps. inside the case.

You can think on it and guess and not have any reasonable
way to conclude it, or just measure temps properly as is the
scientific methodology. Others have and know it does result
in hotter running parts besides those with the waterblocks
on them.

 

[kony]

now you can get 300W or 400W regular sized, power supplies with
heatsinks on the outside. I haven't tried them, but surely they use
convection, and not air from case fans, to cool off .

They do quite poorly at cooling themselves, and similarly
run hot with parts that are not rated for higher temps in
most cases. If they have ventilation holes and are mounted
in a typical chassis with any exterior wall (or ducted
towards same effect) fans, they are using that to attain
lower temps and it is a good thing because most are not
built to run passively very well, don't use exotic parts to
withstand the higher temps. In some models they make some
improvements like paralleled switching rectifiers, but then
they don't even change from electrolytic capacitors to solid
so the lifespan is still substantially shorter - but they
don't have to care, because it may still outlive it's
warranty period and they know mission critical systems dont
rely on a passive PC PSU.

Before then, all I found available were little 250w power supplies,
and similarly low wattage "power supply cards". The former, I was
told, needed a fan blowing air over them. The latter, (both available
models) had a noisy transformer issue. Both are now irrelevant thanks
to regular sized properly powered fanless PSUs.

are you referring to the "newer" regular sized ones?

Yes, true passive cooling requires more than just strapping
a heatsink on it. The shame is that even an extremely low
RPM fan would help substantially, and be inaudible, but
they're trying to use marketing to sell the product instead
of best engineering practices.

I haven't tried them yet,
Regarding power supplies that you've found, haven't cooled off well
without a case fan. How did you detect that? Did you stick a
thermometer in there? What temp did you get - or did it just feel hot?
Did it effect the Volts on the rails - how?

Failed. They die.

 

[jameshanley39]

They do quite poorly at cooling themselves, and similarly
run hot with parts that are not rated for higher temps in
most cases. If they have ventilation holes and are mounted
in a typical chassis with any exterior wall (or ducted
towards same effect) fans, they are using that to attain
lower temps and it is a good thing because most are not
built to run passively very well, don't use exotic parts to
withstand the higher temps. In some models they make some
improvements like paralleled switching rectifiers, but then
they don't even change from electrolytic capacitors to solid
so the lifespan is still substantially shorter - but they
don't have to care, because it may still outlive it's
warranty period and they know mission critical systems dont
rely on a passive PC PSU.





Yes, true passive cooling requires more than just strapping
a heatsink on it. The shame is that even an extremely low
RPM fan would help substantially, and be inaudible, but
they're trying to use marketing to sell the product instead
of best engineering practices.




Failed. They die.

what makes/models have you tried?
I googled
thermaltake fanless power supply overheat

I didn't get horror stories. One guy said it worked fine so far(2
days).

 

[Ken Maltby]

Room temp is insignificant unless we assume every computer
room has a significant rise from having the computer in it.
You are contrasting a trivially lower (perhaps 10C) chassis
air temp and active chassis airflow to cool OTHER parts, to
no airflow. Airflow makes far more difference than this
chassis vs ambient difference. If you don't believe it,
take off your water block on your CPU, put only a passive
heatsink on it and let's see how it fares in a board laying
out in a room that stays the same temp, versus having a fan
on it in a case. We both know the passive option is hotter.

Not necessarily, I have a pretty good Hunter ceiling fan.
The passive heatsink could be hotter than an active heatsink,
at a point of measurement, but there is nothing to say that a
massive passive heatsink with the proper design couldn't
cool the part better than your standard CPU heatsink and
fan.

You are trying hard to stretch negligable things into an
argument. There is not nearly high enough surface ara on
the waterblock, the waterblock is HEATED from the part it is
cooling, and the temp difference between chasssis ambient
and waterblock is not only minor, but the waterblock
would've even been HOTTER than the case if only you had a
fan in the system, so you somewhat have it backwards.

Now you are just being totally ignorant, and it is obvious
you have never encountered water cooling of any kind.
(Or ever tried to solder a copper pipe that has water in
it. ) The moving water is very effective at carrying away
heat. Waterblocks don't get hot. In fact one way I test
home made waterblocks is to press it onto a hot electric
burner, holding it in my hand. They stay cool even when
the rest of the burner is glowing cherry red.

You can think on it and guess and not have any reasonable
way to conclude it, or just measure temps properly as is the
scientific methodology. Others have and know it does result
in hotter running parts besides those with the waterblocks
on them.

More BS, these others must have published such results, or
you would have no way of knowing their results or the methods
used - so where can I find these publications? Or a review of
such testing? (Personally, I expect these "others" are a figment
of your imagination.) {And does that mean when you talked
about "the inevitably higher temp.", you were guessing?}

But I'm not guessing, I have been water cooling PCs and other
devices for a number of years now. And my temperature
measurements are as proper and "scientific" as any. The temp.
at the point I took that measurement (the base of the heatsink),
within the limits of the accuracy of the sensor used, was as I
reported. [the same 32c that Everest gives for the MB sensor]

If the part under the heat sink were able to be cooled by
moving air, as you claim, then it should be able to raise the
temperature of the heatsink in still air. (Of course there is some
air movement in the case I described, just not as much as fans
would provide, so for the purpose of this thread, and in tune
with Kony's warped thinking it's "still air".)

Perhaps, your reply could at least include a site or source for
your "others" claim. (Not holding my breath.)

Luck;
Ken

 

[Ken Maltby]

They do quite poorly at cooling themselves, and similarly
run hot with parts that are not rated for higher temps in
most cases. If they have ventilation holes and are mounted
in a typical chassis with any exterior wall (or ducted
towards same effect) fans, they are using that to attain
lower temps and it is a good thing because most are not
built to run passively very well, don't use exotic parts to
withstand the higher temps. In some models they make some
improvements like paralleled switching rectifiers, but then
they don't even change from electrolytic capacitors to solid
so the lifespan is still substantially shorter - but they
don't have to care, because it may still outlive it's
warranty period and they know mission critical systems dont
rely on a passive PC PSU.




Yes, true passive cooling requires more than just strapping
a heatsink on it. The shame is that even an extremely low
RPM fan would help substantially, and be inaudible, but
they're trying to use marketing to sell the product instead
of best engineering practices.





Failed. They die.

Sounds like more results from "Kony's Imaginary Testing Lab",
to me.

Luck;
Ken

 

[Ken Maltby]

what makes/models have you tried?
I googled
thermaltake fanless power supply overheat

I didn't get horror stories. One guy said it worked fine so far(2
days).

But you don't understand, Kony doesn't need to have "tried"
anything, he operates purely from theory and his opinion. I'm
really looking forward to his reply to your questions.

Luck;
Ken

 

[jameshanley39]

what makes/models have you tried?
I googled
thermaltake fanless power supply overheat

I didn't get horror stories. One guy said it worked fine so far(2
days).

But you don't understand, Kony doesn't need to have "tried"
anything, he operates purely from theory and his opinion.[/QUOTE]

not true

He told you already, he tried them and they died.

I'm
really looking forward to his reply to your questions.

if you were correct then what would you be looking forward to? Sounds
messed up to me. Unless you really think you might be wrong - which
makes what you wrote earlier a bit outrageous.


jh