I'm in Color Management HELL!! PLease advise...

[Viken Karaguesian]

Hi all,

I'm in Color-Management HELL and I need some advice. I'm trying to scan my
slides into my computer and am having difficulty getting decent results
matching the scan to the slide. I know a perfect match is not really
possible, but these scans are consistently dark and lackluster. Before I
continue, here's some pertinent info about my system: Windows XP Pro,
Minolta Scan Dual II film scanner, Epson 1670 flatbed scanner, Panasonic
Monitor, Adobe Photoshop 6, and Jasc Paint Shop Pro 8. I'm *not* a newcomer
to photo and imaging but I can't seem to get this right. Before I blame my
equipment, I want to make sure I'm doing the color management right.

Here's my understanding of how things should work: If the monitor's color
profile is set as the default profile in Windows XP Color Management, you
should be able to turn off color management in all other software and get
consistent results from scanner to image software and other applications.
This is how my system is set. I have my monitor set as the default profile.
I have turned off color management in my scanner software and in my imaging
apps. Is this wrong? I'm working in the sRGB color space. Should I be
loading a different ICC profile or colorspace.

But my scans are coming out dark and lackluster. What goes in as a nice,
well exposed slide gets scanned as dark and dull and all the brilliance is
gone. Manipulating them is becoming an exercise in frustration.

How should I set my color management?? Here are some things that I'm not
sure about:

- What's the difference between sRGB, Color match RGB, Adobe RGB, etc? I
have a vague idea, but I'm not sure.
- What's the proper color space for images that will be uploaded to a
website?
- What the default Gamma for windows, 1.8? 2.2?
- How is Lightness different from Brightness?
- what is a color channel?

Now I feel like I'm ranting. Perhaps I need to read a good book? Can someone
recommend a book (or website) that's not too simple yet not too complicated?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Viken Karaguesian

 

[nikita]

Viken,

I'm on Mac but try this with your PC;

Open up Epsonscan, choose Professional Mode.
Go down to Configuration button (below the scanbuttons).
Choose the Color tab.
On the Mac we choose Colorsync, you would have ICM?
Source: **Epson Standard** which is on top of the list.
Target: s-RGB
Check the box for Display previewing with Monitorcompensation.
Click OK.

If you do have a thirdparty profilerand calibration stuff;
Choose no colorsettings in the dialog you've just visited.
Then build your profile from the scanned IT8.
Go back and do as described above but choose your new
customprofile instead of the Epson Standard.

The Target is what you use in Photoshop and other CMS aware
applications that can read ICC profiles. If you use a mix of non
colormanaged and managed application like the web-browser; Choose
s-RGB.
This is closest one to an uncalibrated PC monitor. The gamma is 2.2.
Sure the native monitor gamma is sligtly higher like 2.4-26. But don't
bother
because the gamma of s-RGB is 2.2 anyway.

When you use the ICM, the CMS translator (engine) is converting the
Epsoncolors into the s-RGB space on the fly while scanning. That's why
you can
use it and also have a correct preview in the scannerpreview thanks to
the checkbox
for using monitordisplay. This takes the scannerspace into the
Monitorspace
in the Epson scannersoftware.

Why are you disconnecting the CMS if you don't use a profile assigned
and converting
into s-RGB when arrived in Photoshop. That would be one of very few
reasons to
disconnect it. Even if you don't use colormanaged applications you
have to bump
the scannercolors into s-RGB. From that point it doesn't matter if
there are any ICC profiles assigned to the file or not (not beeing
colormanaged...), but it has to sit in s-RGB
to work in noncolormanaged application........
So, use colomanagment first – then strip it if you like by using non
CM managed apps.
The colors will look as good as it can in such environment.

---------

When scanning, don't forget to begin with clicking RESET button in the
adjustment section of the scanner application. This will zero out any
settings
from the prevoius scan. Just so that nothing like that is lurking
around giving
you a hard time to get it right.

The original Epsonstandard profile works quite well. A custom nails it
even better.

That's the basic settings.

Nikita

 

[Hecate]

Hi all,

I'm in Color-Management HELL and I need some advice. I'm trying to scan my
slides into my computer and am having difficulty getting decent results
matching the scan to the slide. I know a perfect match is not really
possible, but these scans are consistently dark and lackluster. Before I
continue, here's some pertinent info about my system: Windows XP Pro,
Minolta Scan Dual II film scanner, Epson 1670 flatbed scanner, Panasonic
Monitor, Adobe Photoshop 6, and Jasc Paint Shop Pro 8. I'm *not* a newcomer
to photo and imaging but I can't seem to get this right. Before I blame my
equipment, I want to make sure I'm doing the color management right.

Here's my understanding of how things should work: If the monitor's color
profile is set as the default profile in Windows XP Color Management, you
should be able to turn off color management in all other software and get
consistent results from scanner to image software and other applications.
This is how my system is set. I have my monitor set as the default profile.
I have turned off color management in my scanner software and in my imaging
apps. Is this wrong? I'm working in the sRGB color space. Should I be
loading a different ICC profile or colorspace.

But my scans are coming out dark and lackluster. What goes in as a nice,
well exposed slide gets scanned as dark and dull and all the brilliance is
gone. Manipulating them is becoming an exercise in frustration.

That's because you're effectively limiting the colour gamut.

How should I set my color management?? Here are some things that I'm not
sure about:

- What's the difference between sRGB, Color match RGB, Adobe RGB, etc? I
have a vague idea, but I'm not sure.
- What's the proper color space for images that will be uploaded to a
website?
- What the default Gamma for windows, 1.8? 2.2?
- How is Lightness different from Brightness?
- what is a color channel?

Now I feel like I'm ranting. Perhaps I need to read a good book? Can someone
recommend a book (or website) that's not too simple yet not too complicated?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Try Photoshop Artistry by Haynes and Crumpler. You should be able to
get the version 6 cheaply or even second hand (try Amazon). It
describes how to set up proper colour management. And if your colour
management is set up properly from screen to print you probably won't
need to colour manage the scanner.

 

[David R]

Have you visited www.scantips.com
It's a great site for scanning help.

I would be using your Minolta for film and slides. Although it's old
it's far more advanced than the Epson. Have you consulted the manual?
If you don't have it you can download a copy of the manual and the
latest software at
www.minoltausa.com

 

[Viken Karaguesian]

I *do* use my Minolta for slides. The Epson Scanner is for prints and
documents only. On occasion I've used the Epson for negatives, but it's
mostly for prints.

 

[Viken Karaguesian]

Thanks.

That's because you're effectively limiting the colour gamut.

Try Photoshop Artistry by Haynes and Crumpler. You should be able to
get the version 6 cheaply or even second hand (try Amazon). It
describes how to set up proper colour management. And if your colour
management is set up properly from screen to print you probably won't
need to colour manage the scanner.

--

Hecate
(e-mail address removed)
veni, vidi, reliqui

 

[nikita]

"That's because you're effectively limiting the colour gamut."

Yes, that might be a part of the problem. Especially if going from the
larger native scannerspace into the narrow s-RGB without CONVERTING
into it.

Sorry, Viken I missed the fact that you were scanning slides on a
Minolta when I read through your post to quickly.

You are asking if you should use any other Workingspace. Yes, that may
be a good idea if you're using your scans for more than the web. Set
up a proper colormanagment flow from the scannerspace into Adobe RGB.
Convert duplicates from Adobe RGB to s-RGB for the webproduction. Use
the Adobe RGB for printing and as archivefiles. The Adobe RGB is quite
large and holds more of the native scannerspace. But the key is to
convert into it, not just open it up in it. Open it up just ASSIGN
Adobe RGB to the file. You look at the scanners colors as is looking
in Adobe RGB. Converting into it will map the scanner native colors
into the Adobe RGB without much of a difference in the "look". That's
what you're after I guess.

As you're scanning slides you could always get an IT8 slide and
profile the scanner to get a profile for it. Scan without any
colormanagment or adjustments and ASSIGN this new profile when in
photoshop. Then CONVERT into Adobe RGB.

You could use a commersial profiler which costs money OR the free
little CMS. Then buy an IT8. Even if this is a cost it will solve a
lot of problems and set you on track immediately with less effort.

Books are good and the recomended one above is one of the very best
all categories. But you can also visit the classic cms set up site of
Ian Lyons.

Good luck,

nikita



Colormanagment: http://www.computer-darkroom.com

Free Profiler: http://www.littlecms.com/profilers.htm

 

[Viken Karaguesian]

Thanks again nikita,

Sorry it took long to reply, I'm on vacation :>) What I've done now
is turn on Color Management in all my software and set it to sRGB. I
also loaded the 'SRGB Color Profile" as the default color profile for
my monitor as well. Should I use my monitor's profile as the default
or use AdobeRGB all around, even on the monitor?

I'm also considering buying the Pantone Spyder device as well.

Thanks.

Viken

 

[Hecate]

Thanks again nikita,

Sorry it took long to reply, I'm on vacation :>) What I've done now
is turn on Color Management in all my software and set it to sRGB. I
also loaded the 'SRGB Color Profile" as the default color profile for
my monitor as well. Should I use my monitor's profile as the default
or use AdobeRGB all around, even on the monitor?

General working spaces:

If you're producing mainly non-web, but printing to an inkjet, use
AdobeRGB.

If you're doing mainly web, but printing to an inkjet, use Adobe RGB
and then change to sRGB for the finished file.

If you're doing almost entire web and hardly ever printing, then use
sRGB.

If you're doing stuff mainly for CMYK , then people have told me that
ColormatchRGB is pretty good (And then, of course, you need to
softproof to check the output and so forth).

You should profile your monitor either by getting the relevant profile
from the manufacturer, or getting a Spider (I recommend the one from
Gretag Macbeth). Don't set up your monitor as sRGB unless you only
intend your output to be seen on a screen.

Finally, remember that proper colour management and calibration only
gives you a good chance of getting things right. Probably very good if
your output is screen only, less so if your outputting to an inkjet or
a press. Why? Because people have eyes and eyes see things differently
than machines do. ;-)

 

[nikita]

Viken,

Hecate has already strighten things up, but let me add some anyway.

I can see that you don't quite grasped the diffrences between what to
load and not. If yoo're going for a larger WORKINGSPACE in Photoshop
you have to be careful. If you're choosing anything else than s-RGB as
a workingspace it takes understanding of IN and OUT from it.

You're taking th scanned image into photoshop. The scanner has it's
own space. Somehow those colors have to be TRANSFORMED (converted)
into the Adobe RGB. Build a scannerprofile or use a generic. Let the
scanned image be converted into AdobeRGB either on the fly if the
scannersoftware allow you to set that up, OR
simply ASSIGN the scannerprofile in Photoshop – then CONVERT to
AdobeRGB.

If you're sacnning into Photoshop WITHOUT converting from scannerspace
into Adobe RGB you will see differences in saturations and more. That
can be, for example, a more reddish saturated allover appearance if
the scanner is delivering something smaller in gamut, or the oposit if
the scannerspace is larger. The colors can be anywhere at the moon
too. Some scanners are defaulting to deliver s-RGB...just look at
Vuescan and the Epsons. The RAW files for Epsons are squeezed into
s-RGB according to Ed Hamrick if I understood him right the other day.
He never confirmed any of my questions so I assume that it is so. (My
post was deleted too) Anyway, sending a default scannerspace s-RGB
directly into Adobe RGB without remapping the gamut to that larger
space will increase saturations. Faces will take on more reds etc.


If you are putting an Adobe directly to web without converting to
s-RGB on a duplicated file, well then you will find a weak colored
picture on the web. The saturation goes down. In other words the
opposit to the Scan >>>AdobeRGB situation above. So CONVERT from Adobe
RGB to s-RGB for the webstuff. It's so easy to do so.

Choosing s-RGB as a Workingspace in Photoshop will limit the gamut in
a less good way. But it will make smaller differences IN and OUT from
it than it does with Adobe RGB. It will be less good for printing.

The monitorprofile is something you must build in Photoshop or with a
profilersoftware. Using the most simple solution is Adobe Gamma. Start
with s-RGB loaded and finetune with the Adobe gamma sliders. In the
end of that procedure you will save out your own monitorprofile. That
is a tweaked s-RGB that fits your monitor better than a pure s-RGB
profile. Hence the name monitorprofile....

The monitorprofile is only used to DESCRIBE your monitors way of
delivering colors to your eyes. It is also used by Photoshop and other
CM aware applications to know how to deliver the colors on screen.
Under the hood the workingspace Adobe RGB will be converted into that
profile for YOUR view on YOUR monitor. Send the Adobe RGB file to me
and I will look at it and having a conversion under the hood to my
highend made monitorprofile built with any of my probes. You and I
will have a true look of the Adobe RGB colors but it will be dependent
on the quality of our monitors and how well they're profiled. Equal
quality and very good profiles for them the diff will be minimal. (We
could even cocalibrate our monitors to the same reference file. The
less good monitor would be a reference and the better on would be
degraded to the same bahavior.....The most identical view possible.
Some department or flowchains do this sucessfully)

Never EVER load Adobe Gamma as a monitorprofile!! It's just a
Workingspace in which the pictures colors rests and gets edited.It's
larger than your monitors gamut and different. It will screw your
monitor and your mind up.

As for Colormatch; yes it's a very good Workingspace which actually is
from the beginning a native MONIToRSPACE of the older Radius monitors.
These have been used within the profield of digital imaging and
printing since many years but nowdays retired. Its a space somewhere
in bwteen Adobe RGB and s-RGB regarding size of gamut. But it holds a
gamma of 1.8 intstead of 2.2 (AdobeRGB and s-RGB). Today it's still a
standard space in all picture& newsagencys. Many printers expect to
get ColormatchRGB – then just make a copy of your AdobeRGB and convert
it into Colormatch and give it to them.....it's a very nice space to
work in and forgiving in both Mac and PC environment. It's easy to fix
up a Colormatch in any of the standard workingspaces by hand to
without converting. Most untagged pictures (no icc profile embedded)
at any agency will sit in Colormatch. So, that's what we try first
I like it, but the higher gamma in Adobe RGB is better for the shadow
information. For Mac environment that has their monitors calibrated to
1.8 it fits nicely even outside a colormanagmented flow. One could say
that Colormatch is for the Mac comunity as the s-RGB is for the avarge
mass of PC-users in the uncalibrated area.

Hecate is right about real world contra colortheory. I'm very much in
both camps. What I can add is just that a basic undertsandinmg and
accurate set up is extremely important. You can not replicate an
environment when changing gears otherwise. For printed outputs
accurate profiles delivers a better match than no at all. But as the
VARIABLES are so many from people who reject to cooperate it increases
the chances to screw things and life up. Even many diehards within
printing today is adapting to a full colormanagmented flow. They will
have to otherwise they simply miss the train. Nothing is perfect in
Colormanagment because variables. Minimizing these variables as much
as possible is better than chasing colors all day long. I can see
Hecates points and respect them very much, as I can read between her
lines and understand that she also respect the concept I'm advocating.

Viken, visit the Lyon site and wade through the basic set ups again.
It will pay off.

nikita

 

[Viken Karaguesian]

Thanks! I'll try it out when get home. I guess I need to just change
the color management accoring to what I need to do, because I'll be
doing a liitle bit of everything: Some printing, some web-posting and
screen viewing. I know that everyone's eyes and monitors are
different, but I want to be able to just save my images on a CD and
take it to someone's hows and have the pictures be viewable. There
have been times when I take my pictures to someone else's house and
they looked so dark that I was wondering what was wrong.

I guess I'll have to have two sets of files, one master set for my
screen viewing and one for sRGB. I'll try again when I get home from
vacation.

Viken

 

[Hecate]

Viken,

Hecate has already strighten things up, but let me add some anyway.

<snip>

Good additions to what I was saying. We may not agree entirely on
colour spaces, but the advice was generally the same <g>

I'm glad you had the time to add all that! ;-)

 

[nikita]

"I'm glad you had the time to add all that! ;-)"

Yeah, vacation and a rainy Europe...one has to get all the frustration
out somewhere.

The googleforums can be a real lifesaver in these situations. After a
session in here I don't even have enough energy left to fight my
neighbour whos Dog shits at my lawn. Well, I might stay out of this
list someday and kill that f****** animal anyway. I'll run over him (
the dog ) with with the lawn mower. Could explain this evil act by
telling hem that Shit Happens...they can't arrest me for that, eh?

nikita

 

[Hecate]

"I'm glad you had the time to add all that! ;-)"

Yeah, vacation and a rainy Europe...one has to get all the frustration
out somewhere.

Yes, I'm in rainy England ;-)

The googleforums can be a real lifesaver in these situations. After a
session in here I don't even have enough energy left to fight my
neighbour whos Dog shits at my lawn. Well, I might stay out of this
list someday and kill that f****** animal anyway. I'll run over him (
the dog ) with with the lawn mower. Could explain this evil act by
telling hem that Shit Happens...they can't arrest me for that, eh?

LOL! Personally, I think that's bad training by the owner, so I'd run
the owner over, but there you go... ;-)

 

[Don]

Yes, I'm in rainy England ;-)

Don't worry, now that Wimbledon is over, the sun will come out! ;o)

Don.

 

[nikita]

"I think that's bad training by the owner, so I'd run

the owner over"

mmm....I woulden't mind that either. I'll tune up the lawnmover this
afternoon, – new sparkplug and will fill her up all the way to the
lid. It will be a lot to chew on, that's for sure. Thanks for the
encuragment, that was all I needed to take this final step. I had my
doubts earlier, but those weak feelings are completely gone now! I
hear they've got internet broadband in the cells nowdays too......so,
just do it. I just can't understand what I've been waiting for. It
feels like the most natural thing to do now.

Thanks again, Hecate!

nikita


PS.

Don't stay up waiting for me here. If I don't get him tonight I will
wait and do it the first thing tomorrow when he 'thinks' he's going to
work as usual. Just like a BAM from nowhere! Tutto Finito!

 

[Hecate]

mmm....I woulden't mind that either. I'll tune up the lawnmover this
afternoon, – new sparkplug and will fill her up all the way to the
lid. It will be a lot to chew on, that's for sure. Thanks for the
encuragment, that was all I needed to take this final step. I had my
doubts earlier, but those weak feelings are completely gone now! I
hear they've got internet broadband in the cells nowdays too......so,
just do it. I just can't understand what I've been waiting for. It
feels like the most natural thing to do now.

Thanks again, Hecate!

nikita


PS.

Don't stay up waiting for me here. If I don't get him tonight I will
wait and do it the first thing tomorrow when he 'thinks' he's going to
work as usual. Just like a BAM from nowhere! Tutto Finito!

Don't forget to get pictures ;-)

 

[Hecate]

Don't worry, now that Wimbledon is over, the sun will come out! ;o)

Don.

Nah, there's still the cricket ;-)

 

[Viken Karaguesian]

Well, I tried again and this time I'm closer to sanity :>) I re-did my
monitor profile using the Adobe Gamma control tool. I also used some of the
tools and test images from Norman Koren's website. The Montior's default
profile had a gamma of 2.9 ! (which was *darker* than the 2.2 default), so I
changed it. I set the monitor to gamma 2.2 and adjusted the brightness
accordingly. I also set the monitor's color to 6500K.

Once I got the monitor setup better, I did a bunch of test scans using my
Minolta Scan Dual 2 scanner. I set the color management on Photoshop and
Paint Shop Pro to AdobeRGB (1998). The scans came out much better than
before. I scanned a slide using the Minolta's software default setting and
again with the CM set to Adobe RGB and a third one with the CM set to
Scanner RGB.

When I viewed the plain scan with Pain Shop Pro's CM set to Adobe RGB the
scan looked good, but not as good as the scan made with AdobeRGB. The third
scan (made with ScannerRGB) also looked good.

The scan made with AdobeRGB had better brightness and saturation, but looked
a little greenish. I'm not sure of the greenish tint has to do with the
gamma correction ( I did RGB separately as opposed to one gray control) or
not. The scan made with the Scanner RGB was slightly less bright, but the
color accuracy seemed better on the skin tones.

It seems to me that the best thing to do, as a one-size-fits-all solution,
is to scan my slides (and prints on the Epson) using AdobeRGB 1998 in the
scanner's software and turning off any CM in the imaging programs. I could
always turn on the CM to convert to SRGB if I need to. Does that sound
acceptable? Would it be better to use the scanners RGB then converting to
Adobe RGB, or to just scan using the Adobe RGB in the scanners driver
software?

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I feel like I'm almost there...

Viken

Thanks! I'll try it out when get home. I guess I need to just change
the color management accoring to what I need to do, because I'll be
doing a liitle bit of everything: Some printing, some web-posting and
screen viewing. I know that everyone's eyes and monitors are
different, but I want to be able to just save my images on a CD and
take it to someone's hows and have the pictures be viewable. There
have been times when I take my pictures to someone else's house and
they looked so dark that I was wondering what was wrong.

I guess I'll have to have two sets of files, one master set for my
screen viewing and one for sRGB. I'll try again when I get home from
vacation.

Viken



General working spaces:

If you're producing mainly non-web, but printing to an inkjet, use
AdobeRGB.

If you're doing mainly web, but printing to an inkjet, use Adobe RGB
and then change to sRGB for the finished file.

If you're doing almost entire web and hardly ever printing, then use
sRGB.

If you're doing stuff mainly for CMYK , then people have told me that
ColormatchRGB is pretty good (And then, of course, you need to
softproof to check the output and so forth).

You should profile your monitor either by getting the relevant profile
from the manufacturer, or getting a Spider (I recommend the one from
Gretag Macbeth). Don't set up your monitor as sRGB unless you only
intend your output to be seen on a screen.

Finally, remember that proper colour management and calibration only
gives you a good chance of getting things right. Probably very good if
your output is screen only, less so if your outputting to an inkjet or
a press. Why? Because people have eyes and eyes see things differently
than machines do. ;-)


--

Hecate
(e-mail address removed)
veni, vidi, reliqui

[/QUOTE]

 

[Dave]

Now I feel like I'm ranting. Perhaps I need to read a good book? Can someone
recommend a book (or website) that's not too simple yet not too complicated?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

www.normankoren.com/#Tutorials is very good too.