How to set up dual booting

[rubyjack]

I just got a Vista desktop computer (Dell Inspiron 531s). I'd like to set
it up to dual boot to Windows 2000SP4/Windows Vista. I am a complete novice
to dual booting, but not computers. If someone would like to answer a few
questions for me, I'd be very grateful.

If I install software under one OS, is it available to the other OS, or do I
have to install everything twice? Can I repartition the HD under Windows
without reformatting the HD, or do I need third party software to do this?
And last but not least, how do I setup a dual boot system?


Thanks in advance,
Dan Hacker

 

[Carey Frisch [MVP]]

It is not recommended to attempt to configure a
dual-boot configuration with a factory preinstalled
version of Windows Vista. You'll likely end up
destroying your entire hard drive and have no
operating system at all. Besides, your new Dell
computer likely does not support Windows 2000.

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

---------------------------------------------------------------

I just got a Vista desktop computer (Dell Inspiron 531s). I'd like to set
it up to dual boot to Windows 2000SP4/Windows Vista. I am a complete novice
to dual booting, but not computers. If someone would like to answer a few
questions for me, I'd be very grateful.

If I install software under one OS, is it available to the other OS, or do I
have to install everything twice? Can I repartition the HD under Windows
without reformatting the HD, or do I need third party software to do this?
And last but not least, how do I setup a dual boot system?


Thanks in advance,
Dan Hacker

 

[Rick Rogers]

Hi Dan,

Yes, it's possible. It's best to install the older OS first, and then the
newer one. This way the boot manager is set up for you. Since that's not an
option, you have two basic ways you can approach this.

a) First use disk manager to shring the size of your existing C: volume.
Then create a new volume from the free space, do not format it. Here's the
tricky part: To install Win2000 requires booting from a floppy and loading
the CD by running winnt.exe in the I386 folder from the command prompt. Let
install format the volume you created. When it completes, your Win2000
system will boot, but you will have lost access to the Vista installation.
You can either do a startup repair by booting the Vista DVD (if you have
one), or use VistaBootPro (easily found on google) to repair the mbr.

b) Use a third party boot manager and partitioning program like BootIT NG to
do the above disk operations. The main difference is that you will be able
to use it to create a separate boot entry and install path for Win2000
without damaging the Vista boot manager.

If I install software under one OS, is it available to the other OS, or do
I
have to install everything twice?

You have to install it under each OS. To prevent additional problems, if you
are going to do this you should actually create a third volume to use as a
common installation point. Otherwise you may run into numerous
permission/ownership issues.

Can I repartition the HD under Windows
without reformatting the HD, or do I need third party software to do this?

You can, though diskmgmt.msc is by far not the best utilty for rearranging
and resizing volumes. A word of caution: Backup anything you do not want to
lose (family photos, downloaded program installers, etc.) to removable media
before you begin. While you should be able to do this without loss of data,
there are no guarantees that something will go wrong. Also, if your system
provides for making a set of recovery disks, then you should do so as well.
Installing another OS may cause you to lose access to any recovery volume on
the hard drive.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com

 

[Andy]

The website "How to dual boot Vista and XP (with Vista installed
first) -- the step-by-step guide"
<http://apcmag.com/5485/dualbooting_vista_and_xp?page=1> gives you an
idea of what's involved in installing Windows XP. I don't know how
large your disk is, but Windows 2000 SP4 setup has a limitation that
it can access only up to 137GB in the hard disk, so its partition has
to lie below that point. It's easiest just to install another disk
drive, and install Windows 2000 on it.

 

[rubyjack]

Rats!!!!!!!!!

Thanks so much for the warning. I have had a little experience with Vista,
and while it looks nice, it's a major change for me. I do have all the
disks for the computer, if Dell tells me the computer supports 2000, do you
still advise against a dual boot? What about a dual boot for Vista/XP?


Thanks again,
Dan Hacker

 

[rubyjack]

Rick, thanks for the reply.

My new computer does not have a floppy drive. However, the original W2000
disk that I have is bootable. Would this work instead of booting from a
floppy?

I'm not quite sure I understand the need for a third volume for software
installs. Do I use that volume to install all software that will be used by
both OS's?

I am well aware of the need for backups, and appreciate your advice about
the recovery disks. The system is brand spanking new, so there is no data
yet to backup, but there might actually be some useful software that needs
saving first.

I'll go looking for the software you suggested for the partitioning and
making a new mbr.


I really appreciate your help,
Dan Hacker

 

[rubyjack]

Hmmmmm, never even thought about using a second disk drive. I have several
small lines lying around and could easily slap one in. However, I wouldn't
want to do this unless there is a separate IDE line, as I wouldn't want to
slow the new HD down. Then again, maybe I could master/slave it to the
optical drive. Would that still allow me to boot from it?


Thanks for the reply,
Dan Hacker

 

[Donald L McDaniel]

Rats!!!!!!!!!

Thanks so much for the warning. I have had a little experience with Vista,
and while it looks nice, it's a major change for me. I do have all the
disks for the computer, if Dell tells me the computer supports 2000, do you
still advise against a dual boot? What about a dual boot for Vista/XP?


Thanks again,
Dan Hacker

An XP/Vista dual-boot is MUCH more to be desired than 2k/Vista, since
the kernels are more similar. In addition, Vista will use a FEW XP
drivers, but NO 2k drivers. In any case, you will HAVE to have
necessary Vista-only drivers for such things as video, audio, and
printing, since Vista uses an ENTIRELY different driver-model for
those three. And unless you have all the Win2k drivers for your
devices, they will be worthless if you want to dual-boot between 2k
and Vista..

To dual-boot, Microsoft advises to install the OLDER Microsoft OS
FIRST, then install the newer one.
Example:
1) Dual-boot between 2k and Vista: Install 2k FIRST, on Partition 0,
Disk 0(C. then install Vista.
2) Dual-boot between XP and Vista: Install XP FIRST, on Partition 0,
Disk 0 (C, then install Vista.

I'm sure you get the idea now.

It is simply not possible to non-destructively re-partition your Vista
system disk with Microsoft-provided tools. This is true for ALL
Microsoft OSes.

If you want to do it Microsoft's way, you would first install XP
(repartition HDs destructively, then format the new partitions, and
install XP), making sure you leave enough free (unpartitioned) space
for Vista (I advise at least 40-80GB).

NOTE 1: If you install Vista (or XP) on a partition of GREATER than
32GB, you will NOT get a choice of formats: The installer will simply
format as NTFS. This is because Vista can only create FAT32
partitions smaller than 32GB. It cannot create a FAT32 volume larger
than 32GB. XP, however, will, up to 4TB. In my opinion, 32GB is
simply inadequate for Vista.
NOTE 2: Vista, however, WILL recognize a FAT32 partition >32GB, for
both reading and writing, IF it was created WITHOUT using Vista's
partitioning utility included in the Vista Installer. I don't advise
this. Use the OS installer's partitioning utilities.
NOTE3: If you DO want to re-partition non-destructively, you MUST use
a third-party utility like Symantec's Partition Magic 8.0 and above.
BTW, PM8.0 Trial will NOT save any changes you want to make, so to use
it as it is supposed to be used, you must buy a license from Symantec.

NOTE4: Neither XP or Vista will "automatically" partition/format your
drives. You MUST point the installer MANUALLY to the disk you want to
partition/format/install. If you are preparing the machine for the
dual-boot, I suggest that you do a "FULL" partition, rather than a
"QUICK" partition. A "full" partition will take about 30 minutes-1
hour, depending on size of partition, while a "Quick" partition will
take about 45 sec-1 min. It may take longer to do a "full" partition,
but it will pay dividends down the line. So go through the Setup
routine step-by-step, reading EVERYTHING on the screen, and following
it carefully.

NOTE5: If you choose to do an "Upgrade" installation, rather than a
"Clean" installation, make SURE you backup any files/folders you
absolutely want to save. In ANY case, do a backup of important files
BEFORE partitioning. While partitioning is relatively safe, anything
can happen, such as a power-failure while the partitioning is going on
(or during any write operation). Of course, that would not be good,
would it? and could lead to data loss, or even physical damage to your
drive(s). So BACK-UP your user-data, BACK-UP that BACK-UP, then
BACK-UP your user files on a daily or weekly basis. You never can be
too safe when it comes to such data.

 

[Donald L McDaniel]

Hi Dan,

Yes, it's possible. It's best to install the older OS first, and then the
newer one. This way the boot manager is set up for you. Since that's not an
option, you have two basic ways you can approach this.

a) First use disk manager to shring the size of your existing C: volume.
Then create a new volume from the free space, do not format it. Here's the
tricky part: To install Win2000 requires booting from a floppy and loading
the CD by running winnt.exe in the I386 folder from the command prompt.

Rick, if I remember correctly (it's been so long), 2k Pro's install
disk is itself bootable, so a floppy would not necessarily be needed.

Let install format the volume you created. When it completes, your Win2000
system will boot, but you will have lost access to the Vista installation.
You can either do a startup repair by booting the Vista DVD (if you have
one), or use VistaBootPro (easily found on google) to repair the mbr.

How would he install Vista if he doesn't have the official DVD (or
some other kind of DVD containing the Vista images)?
Also, if I remember correctly, one can do both partitioning and
formatting of his partitions using the 2k Installer itself.

Which is why it's ALWAYS best to do it the Microsoft-supported way, by
installing the older OS FIRST. Then you won't have to do work-arounds
and repairs, and the Vista Boot Manager will work correctly
immediately.

b) Use a third party boot manager and partitioning program like BootIT NG to
do the above disk operations. The main difference is that you will be able
to use it to create a separate boot entry and install path for Win2000
without damaging the Vista boot manager.

I certainly don't advise this. Always use the native disk-prep tools
provided with an OS.

Donald McDaniel

 

[Donald L McDaniel]

Rick, thanks for the reply.

My new computer does not have a floppy drive. However, the original W2000
disk that I have is bootable. Would this work instead of booting from a
floppy?

I'm not quite sure I understand the need for a third volume for software
installs. Do I use that volume to install all software that will be used by
both OS's?

I am well aware of the need for backups, and appreciate your advice about
the recovery disks. The system is brand spanking new, so there is no data
yet to backup, but there might actually be some useful software that needs
saving first.

I'll go looking for the software you suggested for the partitioning and
making a new mbr.


I really appreciate your help,
Dan Hacker

Please, Dan, do NOT use the suggested method. It will take MUCH more
time and work than doing it Microsoft's way. Additionally, BootMagic
REQUIRES that you FIRST create a FLOPPY, and do the partitioning from
it. It will be a waste of your time and money. Do it the Microsoft
way.

So your Vista install files are pre-installed? If so, you probably
got a lot of "crap-ware" along with the OS. I suggest you simply do
it the way Microsoft suggests.

If the OEM did not supply a Restore Disk, but put the install files in
a hidden partition, you should be able to create a set of installation
disks from within that partition, or from within Windows.

I definitely would not want to backup all the "crapware", since you
can get almost all of it online by downloading it anytime you want.

Unless you delete the hidden partition (if that's the way your OEM
chose to do it), you will NOT need to backup ANY software first.

BTW, IF you choose to re-partition your preinstalled OS volume, you
will NOT be able to do it from within Windows. PERIOD. It's just not
possible to delete or format a System volume from within Windows. You
would HAVE to boot from ANY volume BUT your System volume (C.
BootMagic chooses to make that bootable volume a FLOPPY, not their
installation disk. Useless for those like us who have no floppy
drives.

Since you have a virgin HD, do it the right way, using Microsoft's
provided tools.

Donald McDaniel

 

[Donald L McDaniel]

Hmmmmm, never even thought about using a second disk drive. I have several
small lines lying around and could easily slap one in. However, I wouldn't
want to do this unless there is a separate IDE line, as I wouldn't want to
slow the new HD down. Then again, maybe I could master/slave it to the
optical drive. Would that still allow me to boot from it?


Thanks for the reply,
Dan Hacker

NEVER slave an HD to an Optical drive. BAD, BAD, BAD. The HD will be
limited to the speed of the Optical drive.
Do it the other way around: Slave the Optical drive to an HD.

Installing on a secondary drive is a good idea, if you can afford a
second drive, and if you have a spare open IDE connection on the
Motherboard. Optical Drives should never be slaved, anyway. They
should always be Masters, if at all possible. Better performance
all-around.

Too bad you didn't buy a computer with SATA controllers instead.
Hopefully, you will learn from your mistake. SATA drives are just as
cheap as IDE drives, just as easy to set up, and MUCH easier to swap
out if needed. Also, SATA cables are so much SMALLER than IDE cables,
and allow for better air-flow in the Box, which leads, of course, to
cooler-running CPUs/GPUs/Motherboards/HDs/Memory. If you do have
extra IDE cables hanging about, make sure they are the required 80pin
cables, if you want your drives to run at UDMA speeds. Also, use
good-quality round IDE cables, rather than the old-style flat ribbon
cables, if possible. They make them with secondary IDE connectors, as
well as single IDE connectors.

Donald McDaniel

 

[Rick Rogers]

Hi Donald,

Rick, if I remember correctly (it's been so long), 2k Pro's install
disk is itself bootable, so a floppy would not necessarily be needed.

Maybe, like you it's been a while. I just remember running the installs from
a floppy. But, it may have been because the systems I was working on didn't
support booting from a CD back then.

How would he install Vista if he doesn't have the official DVD (or
some other kind of DVD containing the Vista images)?

Well, he wouldn't be installing Vista, he would be repairing the bootloader.
VistaBootPro is the choice of most, though I prefer just using bcdedit from
the command prompt. For that, he'd need the disk to load the recovery
console. If he doesn't have one, then VBP is the way to go.

Also, if I remember correctly, one can do both partitioning and
formatting of his partitions using the 2k Installer itself.

Yes, but I would not use the diskpart tool on a system with Vista already on
it as it may alter the partition alignment and leave the installation
unuseable. I would, however, recommend that the Win2K formatting tool be
used as that OS will not be able to install to a Vista formatted NTFS volume
due to minor changes in the way it is implemented. This is why I recommended
that space be freed before beginning but not be formatted.

Which is why it's ALWAYS best to do it the Microsoft-supported way, by
installing the older OS FIRST. Then you won't have to do work-arounds
and repairs, and the Vista Boot Manager will work correctly
immediately.

Yes, but it's pretty clear that this manner of doing it is not an option.
Even if the poster has a recovery disk set, it will likely just to a full
wipe and reload, not at all what he would want.

I certainly don't advise this. Always use the native disk-prep tools
provided with an OS.

Actually, the third party tools are much better and more useful than any
native Windows disk tools. In fact, the native tools aren't even close when
it comes to functionality and reliability.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com

 

[rubyjack]

Thanks for the details. Since it is a brand new computer, and I have all
the disks, a clean install looks like the best bet.


Dan Hacker

 

[Donald L McDaniel]

Hi Donald,



Maybe, like you it's been a while. I just remember running the installs from
a floppy. But, it may have been because the systems I was working on didn't
support booting from a CD.

I was just referring to your hypothetical situation of "booting the
Vista DVD", not your method. I guess I didn't see the proviso you
attached.

Well, he wouldn't be installing Vista, he would be repairing the bootloader.
VistaBootPro is the choice of most, though I prefer just using bcdedit from
the command prompt. For that, he'd need the disk to load the recovery
console. If he doesn't have one, then VBP is the way to go.

I don't believe the OP has enough experience to use the Vista
commandline tools. If I'm wrong, please forgive me. Which is why I
suggested doing it Microsoft's way.

Yes, but I would not use the diskpart tool on a system with Vista already on
it as it may alter the partition alignment and leave the installation
unuseable.

Which is why I suggested doing it Microsoft's way. Anyway, the user
never sees "diskpart" from the Vista installer, nor would he see the
2k equivalent from within 2k's installer.

I would, however, recommend that the Win2K formatting tool be
used as that OS will not be able to install to a Vista formatted NTFS volume
due to minor changes in the way it is implemented. This is why I recommended
that space be freed before beginning but not be formatted.

Agreed. Which is why I suggested doing it Microsoft's way: Install
the older OS first, and create the 2k partition using the built-in
partitioning/formatting tool in the 2k installer, making sure to leave
plenty of free space for Vista to create its own NTFS volume (or
simply format all partitions as FAT32. Then there will be no such
conflicts.)

Yes, but it's pretty clear that this manner of doing it is not an option.
Even if the poster has a recovery disk set, it will likely just to a full
wipe and reload, not at all what he would want.

Note also, that the OP has no floppy drive, so BootITNG is kind of
useless for him. Unless, of course, one can do the partitioning from
within Windows using BootITNG. From what I remember of it, the user
must first create a boot floppy containing TeraByte's
partitioning/formatting tools, then use it to create partitions. I'm
pretty sure it does partitioning from within TeraByte's version of DOS
(I think its a version of DR DOS).

Actually, the third party tools are much better and more useful than any
native Windows disk tools. In fact, the native tools aren't even close when
it comes to functionality and reliability.

Well, I've never had any problems using Microsoft's Installation tools
included in the Installer. They've always functioned just fine, and
were extremely easy to use, if used the Microsoft way, rather than
trying to do something Microsoft won't officially support, and I found
them to be 100% reliable, IF I followed Microsoft's directions. I've
never had a disk failure or corruption using them. But I HAVE had
such problems using Partition Magic 8.0 (not Symantec's, the original
manufacturer's). Symantec may have fixed the problems, for all I
know. And maybe BootITNG never had the same problems of disk
corruption. Don't know. I never used it.

I guess the third-party tools are more functional and (possibly)
reliable IF one wants to do a non-standard installation such as you
advise. And I do wish the Vista Installer's front-end to diskpart
would be more detailed and usable, but we have what we have, until
Microsoft chooses to expand it for non-standard partitioning duties.

I guess this is more of a "religious" point of contention than a
"functional" one. I'm sure that those who use third-party tools have
just as much success as I do using just the Microsoft-provided ones.
Hopefully, they are just as reliable as the Microsoft tools.

Donald McDaniel

 

[Bruce Chambers]

I just got a Vista desktop computer (Dell Inspiron 531s). I'd like to set
it up to dual boot to Windows 2000SP4/Windows Vista. I am a complete novice
to dual booting, but not computers. If someone would like to answer a few
questions for me, I'd be very grateful.

The older OS must be installed first unless you wish to acquire and
use some 3rd-party partition and boot management utility 3rd-party
products. Having an OEM installation of Vista further complicates
matters, as you probably did not receive a real Vista installation DVD
with the system.

However, dual-booting is no longer necessary in most situations.

Why not download a Virtual Machine application, such as Microsoft's
VirtualPC 2007 (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/search.asp?) or
Innotek's VirtualBox (http://www.virtualbox.org/) and run Win2K and your
legacy applications within a virtual computer. Both are free and work
with Vista. (Microsoft does not support the use of VirtualPC 2007 on
Vista Home editions, but several people have reported that it works just
fine.)

If I install software under one OS, is it available to the other OS, or do I
have to install everything twice?

You'd pretty much have to install everything twice. It is possible to
have a 3rd partition for shared applications, but it would be necessary
for such a partition to be formatted in a common file format (Win2K's
older version of NTFS or FAT32). The applications would also have to be
installed into each OS (to ensure proper system file placement and
registry updates), one at a time, but the bulk of the program files
could be located on this common partition. I do not, however, actually
recommend doing this as, if you were to uninstall such an application
from one OS, you may not be able to gracefully uninstall it from the
second OS, having already deleted crucial installation data during the
first uninstall action.

Can I repartition the HD under Windows
without reformatting the HD, or do I need third party software to do this?

You'd need 3rd party software if you don't want to wipe and partition
the hard drive, and start from scratch.



--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

 

[Donald L McDaniel]

The older OS must be installed first unless you wish to acquire and
use some 3rd-party partition and boot management utility 3rd-party
products. Having an OEM installation of Vista further complicates
matters, as you probably did not receive a real Vista installation DVD
with the system.

Bruce, just so you will know in the future, Dell almost always
includes a "bios-locked, pre-activated", "FULL OEM" DVD with machines
equipped with Vista. Plus, a drivers disk for all the Dell-installed
devices.
..
The Vista Install DVD is NOT your cheap Restore disk, but a "full" OEM
disk

This DVD should install on any Intel-based computer, as long as the
user has a valid OEM license key, though the pre-activation feature
won't be available to such an installation.

Additionally, Dell places the same information on a hidden partition.
I'm fairly certain that this would enable one to burn a Vista install
DVD, if necessary.

Donald McDaniel

 

[rubyjack]

Wow! The more I read the confusider I get.

However, it does seem like you have recommended the easiest, safest way to
accomplish the dual boot.


Thanks for your time,
Dan Hacker

 

[rubyjack]

Bruce, I had considered this option but thought the dual boot would be the
better choice. Under a VM machine, do I have to install each software
package for each OS, or will the VM take care of this for me. BTW, this
sounds like a very workable solution for me.


Thanks,
Dan Hacker

 

[rubyjack]

OOOO! I like your way of thinking. I do believe you're right as the OS
disk states "Operating System Already Installed on Your Computer," and
"Reinstallation DVD Windows Vista Home Basic 32BIT."

Does this clarify my situation?


Thanks, Donald,
Dan Hacker

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Bruce, just so you will know in the future, Dell almost always
includes a "bios-locked, pre-activated", "FULL OEM" DVD with machines
equipped with Vista. Plus, a drivers disk for all the Dell-installed
devices.
.
The Vista Install DVD is NOT your cheap Restore disk, but a "full" OEM
disk

Interesting. They had stopped that practice for WinXP after so many of
the installation CDs found their way to being sold on eBay, so I'd
assumed they'd steered the same course with Vista.



--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot