Help with Cooling Fan (Question)

U

UCLAN

kony said:
So where are you claiming this transformer input is
filtered? The issue is not whether there was a separate
transformer as that is quite common today.

No...*input* 60hz transformer, Kony. Rectified, fed to a +5v
3-pin regulator for +5vsb output.
No, that was by far the most common arrangement since day 1
of ATX.

Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. Even if only 20%
of the early supplies used the input transformer, and most of those
switched to switching designs off of the 300v buss as current needs
increased, would not both of the statements be correct?
"Slow" in context, nobody suggested a race to see if you can
unplug the AC power cord with one hand while simultaneously
lunging at the HV parts with the other to see if you can
manage to touch them before caps have drained. Rather,
unplugging the supply before it's opened is sufficient.

And not knowing the degree of discharge, isn't the use of some
sort of discharge resistor prudent?
Who claimed they're different/lower values? Not I.

You implied as much when you said "Part of the typical
manual-voltage selection type PSU is also a stabilization
gained by the resistors across the voltage doubling subcircuit."
These resistors were also used in AT designs, no? To include
this as a reason why ATX supplies did not require manual 300v
buss discharge (as opposed to AT), they would have to be lower
values than their AT counterparts, no?
 
K

kony

No...*input* 60hz transformer, Kony. Rectified, fed to a +5v
3-pin regulator for +5vsb output.

So you claim this design will not drain?

Answer the above, as your answer is quite significant. Are
you again just trying to shift the conversation away from
the fact that you were wrong as you tried in the other
thread?

Seems you are always light on real facts, so show us one
single example of a supply, hell, even a schematic of an ATX
supply actually built and sold, that will not drain when
unplugged from AC, within a few seconds.


Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. Even if only 20%

So you have some evidence here or are you just making things
up as you go along again?

of the early supplies used the input transformer, and most of those
switched to switching designs off of the 300v buss as current needs
increased, would not both of the statements be correct?

No, it's still wrong. More and more did not switch, they
were already doing it.

And not knowing the degree of discharge, isn't the use of some
sort of discharge resistor prudent?

Only if _you_ are guessing.
Since I know they discharge fast enough I don't have that
burden.

You implied as much when you said "Part of the typical
manual-voltage selection type PSU is also a stabilization
gained by the resistors across the voltage doubling subcircuit."

No, I implied no such thing. I described the situation but
never even the slightest suggestion or implication that it
was not the case in AT.

These resistors were also used in AT designs, no?

Yes, and I never claimed otherwise... you simply seem to
make up things as you go along apparently, unless you care
to go back and quote exactly what I wrote that implies I
meant it didn't apply to AT.
To include
this as a reason why ATX supplies did not require manual 300v
buss discharge (as opposed to AT),

I never wrote "as opposed to AT".
they would have to be lower
values than their AT counterparts, no?

Perhaps if you back up and get your facts straight, we can
then go on in some constructive way.
 
U

UCLAN

kony said:
So you claim this design will not drain?

Drain what? A small 60hz transformer connected to the AC input
has NO effect on the discharge rate of the 300v buss. The +5vsb
circuit connected to the secondary of this transformer has NO
effect on the 300v buss discharge rate, either. If you think
otherwise, please explain the current path.
Answer the above, as your answer is quite significant. Are
you again just trying to shift the conversation away from
the fact that you were wrong as you tried in the other
thread?

Huh? You're really reaching here. Like a drowning man trying
to grasp the rescue float.
Seems you are always light on real facts, so show us one
single example of a supply, hell, even a schematic of an ATX
supply actually built and sold, that will not drain when
unplugged from AC, within a few seconds.

Sigh...there ya go relying on the fact that I am no longer in
the business or have access to older model PSUs. If you think
I'm gonna rip open my TC300 that's powering my computer, you're
nuts. But, if you're ever in the San Diego area, we'll tear it
down. I'm not sure of its ATX revision level, but I think it's
old enough.

You have an issue with grasping facts that are not in line with
your own experience (I'm assuming that you are relating truth at
all times. Perhaps I shouldn't.)

A 300 buss will discharge (or I guess you call it drain) at
different rates for different reasons. The type of +5vsb circuit
is just one of those reasons.
So you have some evidence here or are you just making things
up as you go along again?

Evidence that the statements are not mutually exclusive? [Do you
know what that means?] I see logic is not your strong suit, either.
It's self evident, Einstein.
No, it's still wrong. More and more did not switch, they
were already doing it.

No, not all. Do you have evidence that they were *all* doing it?
Only if _you_ are guessing.

I see. Measure the 300v buss. Nope. It's low enough. No bleeder
necessary. It's *much* faster to just discharge the damn things
as soon as you open the case.
No, I implied no such thing. I described the situation but
never even the slightest suggestion or implication that it
was not the case in AT.

Really? Then WHY did you include it in your missive on why ATX PSUs
discharged faster than AT supplies. <g>

Bullshit *will* come back to haunt you.
 
K

kony

Drain what? A small 60hz transformer connected to the AC input
has NO effect on the discharge rate of the 300v buss. The +5vsb
circuit connected to the secondary of this transformer has NO
effect on the 300v buss discharge rate, either. If you think
otherwise, please explain the current path.

We don't have to assume every part discharges another
subcircuit, only that each has it's own drain mechansim.

Huh? You're really reaching here. Like a drowning man trying
to grasp the rescue float.

Not at all, the core argument was whether the thing retains
charge when unplugged. You still haven't demonstrated that
it would.

Sigh...there ya go relying on the fact that I am no longer in
the business or have access to older model PSUs. If you think
I'm gonna rip open my TC300 that's powering my computer, you're
nuts. But, if you're ever in the San Diego area, we'll tear it
down. I'm not sure of its ATX revision level, but I think it's
old enough.

Well, you answer that you're not "gonna rip opem my ...".
Guess what? I _DO_ rip open power supplies, all the time.
I've even pulled power boards, disconnected all the drains
and measured the cap alone.
You have an issue with grasping facts that are not in line with
your own experience (I'm assuming that you are relating truth at
all times. Perhaps I shouldn't.)

Get hands-on, there's really no substitute.

If with your theory, you discharge caps with a resistor,
next time meaasure the voltage first... very simple thing to
do and if you ever find one that retained charge, please
report it. Thus far, there are no reports of any PSU
retaining charge.

A 300 buss will discharge (or I guess you call it drain) at
different rates for different reasons. The type of +5vsb circuit
is just one of those reasons.

Yes, it might drain in a fraction of a second or take a few
seconds. None of them are left floating though, even a very
low discharge rate is significant.


No, not all. Do you have evidence that they were *all* doing it?

"All", no. On the other hand, I was servicing them. This
is still an aside though, because we need not determine that
ALL drain in exactly the same way, only that they do.
I see. Measure the 300v buss. Nope. It's low enough. No bleeder
necessary. It's *much* faster to just discharge the damn things
as soon as you open the case.

Except for that part about them already being drained.
I can appreciate that you would routinely just "do it"
without knowning if it were needed, and indeed, it is proper
and safe procedure to drain HV caps when one doesn't know if
they're charged- but this is not same thing as whether they
actually are.


Really? Then WHY did you include it in your missive on why ATX PSUs
discharged faster than AT supplies. <g>

Because they do typically drain faster, because of the 5VSB
circuit. Did I write 100% guaranteed to? NO, and there was
no need to write that as either way, they still, both, drain
fast enough.
Bullshit *will* come back to haunt you.

I imagine you hear that a lot?
 
U

UCLAN

kony said:
We don't have to assume every part discharges another
subcircuit, only that each has it's own drain mechansim.

Huh? Either the 60hz transformer based +5vsb circuit aids in the
speed of the 300v buss discharge or it doesn't. I've read the above
a dozen times now, and it *still* makes no sense.
Not at all, the core argument was whether the thing retains
charge when unplugged. You still haven't demonstrated that
it would.

No. The core argument was whether an ATX PSU's 300v buss discharges
faster than an AT PSU's 300v buss. I have demonstrated that a 60hz
transformer based +5vsb ATX PSU would have a similar 300v buss
discharge rate as an AT PSU.
Well, you answer that you're not "gonna rip opem my ...".
Guess what? I _DO_ rip open power supplies, all the time.
I've even pulled power boards, disconnected all the drains
and measured the cap alone.

So have I. Hundreds of times. I'm just not disposed to do it to
the PSU that is presently powering my computer. Have a problem
with that?
Get hands-on, there's really no substitute.

Oh, but I have. Started as a engineering tech in a lab. Lots of
hands on experience. More than you, I imagine.
If with your theory, you discharge caps with a resistor,
next time meaasure the voltage first... very simple thing to
do and if you ever find one that retained charge, please
report it.

Heh, either you have a reading deficiency or a very short memory.
I am *retired*, remember? I don't spend my days measuring 300v
buss voltages. What an absurd request.
Because they do typically drain faster, because of the 5VSB
circuit. Did I write 100% guaranteed to? NO, and there was
no need to write that as either way, they still, both, drain
fast enough.

Evading the question about why you included the discussion of the
"resistors across the voltage doubling subcircuit" in your post
(when they're typically the same in AT and ATX designs) ??

Still waiting for you to explain how a +5vsb circuit powered from a
60hz transformer directly across the AC input discharges the 300v buss.
 
K

kony

Huh? Either the 60hz transformer based +5vsb circuit aids in the
speed of the 300v buss discharge or it doesn't. I've read the above
a dozen times now, and it *still* makes no sense.

Of course it doesn't, because you're trying to read more
into it than written. What is written is "So you claim this
design will not drain".

"This design", refers to a power supply using this
hypothetical method of deriving 5VSB. Are you claiming that
the power supply, after unplugged, would retain capacitor
charge if it had that design? The answer is no, because
there are multiple potential methods of discharge, we need
not fixate on 5VSB as in the end the power supply will drain
to a safe level within seconds regardless.


No. The core argument was whether an ATX PSU's 300v buss discharges
faster than an AT PSU's 300v buss. I have demonstrated that a 60hz
transformer based +5vsb ATX PSU would have a similar 300v buss
discharge rate as an AT PSU.

No, you went off on a tangent because you don't have an
argument. You alleged I had written it because you either
lack reading skills or knew you were wrong and sought to
divert attention from it.



So have I. Hundreds of times. I'm just not disposed to do it to
the PSU that is presently powering my computer. Have a problem
with that?

Yes, the problem is you make up nonsense arguments when you
feel it diverts attention from your incorrect assumptions,
but not even once bothering to actually collect data.

Often that's called "pulling it out of your arse".

So, again I'll ask for an example, ONE SINGLE PC POWER
SUPPLY sold today that does not drain within seconds.

You have either not opened them hundreds of times or were
completely ignorant of the circuitry inside of you can't
even understand a basic drain.
Oh, but I have. Started as a engineering tech in a lab. Lots of
hands on experience. More than you, I imagine.

Nope, maybe you have some non-applicable experience, in a
loosely related industry that you falsely concluded makes
you an expert in another, but unfortunately you overlooked
that bit about details, that you have to actually know them
instead of guessing.
Heh, either you have a reading deficiency or a very short memory.
I am *retired*, remember? I don't spend my days measuring 300v
buss voltages. What an absurd request.

So basically just another excuse as to why you're ignorant,
but not why you assert you are right when you have no basis
to make such an assertion.


Evading the question about why you included the discussion of the
"resistors across the voltage doubling subcircuit" in your post
(when they're typically the same in AT and ATX designs) ??

Still waiting for you to explain how a +5vsb circuit powered from a
60hz transformer directly across the AC input discharges the 300v buss.

I didn't claim it did.

I can see you are not of sound mind, since you feel randomly
inventing something to argue about is useful instead of
staying on the topic. Topic was whether they drain. You
have absolutely zero evidence that they do not, and in utter
stupidity have argued it with no basis.

You probably know they don't by now and are simply trying to
save face by inventing excuses why you would not gather
evidence. What a waste of time. I'm done with this silly
argument as anyone who wants to can easily confirm what I've
written- so long as they follow safe procedures, I don't
endorse anyone untrained to open a power supply or have it
open while AC power is connected.

.... and so i'm now done with the thread.
 
U

UCLAN

kony said:
Of course it doesn't, because you're trying to read more
into it than written. What is written is "So you claim this
design will not drain".

"This design", refers to a power supply using this
hypothetical method of deriving 5VSB. Are you claiming that
the power supply, after unplugged, would retain capacitor
charge if it had that design? The answer is no, because
there are multiple potential methods of discharge, we need
not fixate on 5VSB as in the end the power supply will drain
to a safe level within seconds regardless.

You are again evading the point *you* tried to make that an ATX
PSU will have a faster 300v discharge than will an AT PSU. If the
ATX PSU has the 60hz input for its +5vsb (not hypothetical), the
"multiple potential methods of discharge" would be the same in the
two types of supply, and thus your assertion is *incorrect*. Why
do you keep evading this point?
No, you went off on a tangent because you don't have an
argument. You alleged I had written it because you either
lack reading skills or knew you were wrong and sought to
divert attention from it.

From Message-ID: <[email protected]>:

UCLAN: ATX supplies are no different from AT supplies when it comes to
the discharge rate of the 300v buss. It varies with design. I
always kept a 47K bleed resistor handy when playing with _any_
SMPS, AT or ATX.

kony: Yes they are different! Surely I dont need to tell you why?
Hint: 5VSB

You obviously stated that an ATX's 300v buss discharges faster. I
said it varies with design, and proved it with the 60hz type +5vsb.
You've been evading the issue ever since.
Yes, the problem is you make up nonsense arguments when you
feel it diverts attention from your incorrect assumptions,
but not even once bothering to actually collect data.

Often that's called "pulling it out of your arse".

So because I don't feel the need to disable my home computer
to please your anal rantings, I am "pulling it out of my arse" ??
The existence of the 60hz based +5vsb circuit is a "nonsense argument" ?

You've lost it, kony.
So, again I'll ask for an example, ONE SINGLE PC POWER
SUPPLY sold today that does not drain within seconds.

You've again changed the premise, again. And define "seconds."
(A minute is 60 "seconds" after all.)

And I hear that whiny child, again.
Nope, maybe you have some non-applicable experience, in a
loosely related industry that you falsely concluded makes
you an expert in another, but unfortunately you overlooked
that bit about details, that you have to actually know them
instead of guessing.

Speaking of guessing, you are quite bad at it. GM of a *PC* PSU
company, manager of CS (including repair) of a *PC* PSU company.
These are hardly what I'd call a "loosely related industry."
Have worked on the design as well as repairing *PC* PSUs.

So, guess again.
I can see you are not of sound mind, since you feel randomly
inventing something to argue about is useful instead of
staying on the topic. Topic was whether they drain.

No. The topic, as shown in the above Message ID, is whether ATX
PSU's have a faster discharge of the 300v buss than do AT PSUs.
I have shown that ATX supplies that have 60hz based +5vsb circuits
will discharge their 300v buss in a similar time as an AT PSU.
Your evasion of this, even trying to change the topic, is humorous.
... and so i'm now done with the thread.

Ah, don't forget to tuck your tail between your legs.
 
K

kony

Ah, don't forget to tuck your tail between your legs.

No tucking needed, there's no discussion that will be
fruitful until you start considering real evidence instead
of bathing in delusions of grandeur.

Strong hint- learn about a thing called "science".
Your hypothesis is not based on any observation, shown by
lack of any examples.

You cannot even begin to experiement without any examples,
nor draw the conclusion. You've fallen off the deep end and
are wading in BS.
 
U

UCLAN

kony whined:
Strong hint- learn about a thing called "science".
Your hypothesis is not based on any observation, shown by
lack of any examples.

Wrong again. Decades of observation. You seem hung up on the fact
that I didn't record examples of a very ordinary event in case
some anal retentive whiner insisted on them years later. Do you
have an example of a first generation ATX PSU sitting in front
of you? I didn't think so.
You cannot even begin to experiement without any examples,
nor draw the conclusion. You've fallen off the deep end and
are wading in BS.

No experimentation is necessary. Simple electronic knowledge is
all that is needed to realize that a 60hz transformer based +5vsb
circuit connected to the AC input will have NO effect on the discharge
rate of the 300v buss of an ATX PSU, making its discharge rate no
different than an AT PSU. *THAT* is the point that is sticking in your
craw, and thus you try to evade that point. That gig's up, kony.
 
I

itsacin

I do NOT want to jump into the middle of this argument but I thought
I'd add an idea. My professor instructed us to fist unplug the ps and
then push the power button for a couple of seconds to drain whatever
power might be in there. He told us there shouldn't be alot but could
be enough to zap you. No one likes to get zapped even by the mildest
charge.
 
K

kony

I do NOT want to jump into the middle of this argument but I thought
I'd add an idea. My professor instructed us to fist unplug the ps and
then push the power button for a couple of seconds to drain whatever
power might be in there. He told us there shouldn't be alot but could
be enough to zap you. No one likes to get zapped even by the mildest
charge.


During the few seconds it takes for one to drain, doing that
may indeed more rapidly discharge the PSU. It would've
drained anyway though, as seen by taking voltage readings
with a multimeter.

There are a lot of urban myths out there and the only way to
approach them is to actually test their validity. A certain
someone I've been arguing with wants to just ignore all this
and pretend to be mr know-it-all... which is essentially how
urban myths get started in the first place.
 
U

UCLAN

kony said:
There are a lot of urban myths out there and the only way to
approach them is to actually test their validity. A certain
someone I've been arguing with wants to just ignore all this
and pretend to be mr know-it-all... which is essentially how
urban myths get started in the first place.

Heh, heh. The fact that a 60hz transformer based *5vsb circuit
would NOT increase the discharge rate of an ATX PSU's 300v buss
needs no testing to verify its validity. All that is needed is
a little electronic theory knowledge. Perhaps *this* is why you
continue to ignore this fact.
 
U

UCLAN

itsacin said:
I do NOT want to jump into the middle of this argument but I thought
I'd add an idea. My professor instructed us to fist unplug the ps and
then push the power button for a couple of seconds to drain whatever
power might be in there.

Won't help much. The front panel ON/OFF switch on an ATX computer is
momentary in nature. Holding it in for a couple of seconds really
won't help discharge the 300v buss. Repeated pushing of this button
with the unit unplugged? This will likely do nothing, as the logic
circuit on the motherboard will not operate once the +5vsb goes away,
which could happen as little as 17ms after the power is removed,
according to ATX specification.
 
K

kony

Heh, heh. The fact that a 60hz transformer based *5vsb circuit
would NOT increase the discharge rate of an ATX PSU's 300v buss
needs no testing to verify its validity.

Nor does it directly relate to the topic before you diverged
on a tangent, which was "does the PSU drain", not "if we
pick out but one subcircuit, can we ignore the rest".
All that is needed is
a little electronic theory knowledge. Perhaps *this* is why you
continue to ignore this fact.

Clueless one- I never claimed a 60Hz transformer supply for
5VSB /would/ drain them, you're just too caught up in
yourself to even realize it. You invented fiction then ran
with it, a clear sign of delusion.
 
K

kony

Won't help much. The front panel ON/OFF switch on an ATX computer is
momentary in nature. Holding it in for a couple of seconds really
won't help discharge the 300v buss.

You would do well to just not post if you're too ignorant to
know.

Yes, pressing the front button will in fact drain it faster.
Pressing the button causes board to pull down the PS-On
signal, at which point the PSU supplies the remaining
voltages (besides the 5VSB it had been already), rapidly
draining the caps instead of it happening over the next few
seconds a it would normally.
Repeated pushing of this button
with the unit unplugged? This will likely do nothing, as the logic
circuit on the motherboard will not operate once the +5vsb goes away,
which could happen as little as 17ms after the power is removed,
according to ATX specification.

Now THIS is both funny and ironic!

Ponder on what _you_ wrote for a second... how is it you
think they'd make the 5VSB go away, since it is now, NOT
running off a 60Hz line transformer? I know, you're too
ignorant to know they don't do it like that anymore, barely
did at all but you're too busy being full of yourself to
have that little bit of information sink in.

The way they'd do it is (get ready for it!).... draining
the caps so there's no charge left, the very thing you're
too stubborn to concede.
 
U

UCLAN

kony said:
Nor does it directly relate to the topic before you diverged
on a tangent, which was "does the PSU drain", not "if we
pick out but one subcircuit, can we ignore the rest".

Again, you are wrong. You stated that the 300v buss in an ATX PSU
discharges faster than in an AT PSU because of the +5vsb circuit.
I claimed it depends on the design, citing that the 60hz transformer
based +5vsb circuit has no effect on the discharge rate of the 300v
buss, thus an ATX supply with this circuit would have a 300v buss
that discharges at the same rate as that in an AT supply.

I suggest you read:

Message-ID: <[email protected]>

UCLAN:
ATX supplies are no different from AT supplies when it comes to
the discharge rate of the 300v buss. It varies with design. I
always kept a 47K bleed resistor handy when playing with _any_
SMPS, AT or ATX.

kony:
Yes they are different! Surely I dont need to tell you why?
Hint: 5VSB


You were wrong, and don't have the "boys" to admit it, so you accuse
me of "diverging on a tangent." Nice try, but unsuccessful.
 
U

UCLAN

kony said:
You would do well to just not post if you're too ignorant to
know.

Yes, pressing the front button will in fact drain it faster.
Pressing the button causes board to pull down the PS-On
signal, at which point the PSU supplies the remaining
voltages (besides the 5VSB it had been already), rapidly
draining the caps instead of it happening over the next few
seconds a it would normally.

Again, it seems as though *you* are the ignorant one. The momentary
ON/OFF switch on the front panel goes to the INPUT of a logic circuit
on the motherboard. It is the OUTPUT of this logic circuit that pulls
down the PS_ON input, turning on the PSU. But, this will only occur
as long as this logic chips Vcc - the +5vsb - is high enough to allow
this chip to operate. Once the PSU has been unplugged, the +5vsb rapidly
diminishes, leaving the logic circuit benign. Push the ON/OFF switch
all you want. It will accomplish nothing.
Now THIS is both funny and ironic!

Ponder on what _you_ wrote for a second... how is it you
think they'd make the 5VSB go away, since it is now, NOT
running off a 60Hz line transformer? I know, you're too
ignorant to know they don't do it like that anymore, barely
did at all but you're too busy being full of yourself to
have that little bit of information sink in.

The way they'd do it is (get ready for it!).... draining
the caps so there's no charge left, the very thing you're
too stubborn to concede.

A) I am not going to assume what revision of ATX PSU he has, and
B) nothing you wrote above (with mouth foaming) changes the fact
that pushing or repeated pushing of the front panel ON/OFF switch
after the PSU has been unplugged does NOTHING in the way of discharging
the 300v buss, contrary to your beliefs.
 
K

kony

Again, you are wrong. You stated that the 300v buss in an ATX PSU
discharges faster than in an AT PSU because of the +5vsb circuit.

yes, "almost always". The rare PSU of a decade ago is for
all purposes, non-existant today... unless of course, you
care to provide an example ??

I claimed it depends on the design, citing that the 60hz transformer
based +5vsb circuit has no effect on the discharge rate of the 300v
buss, thus an ATX supply with this circuit would have a 300v buss
that discharges at the same rate as that in an AT supply.


Never did I claim a 60Hz transformer running of the mains
would drain the HV caps. You made that assumption entirely
on your own. I then clarified that I had not made the
statement after you had suggested I had in error, but even
then, even now, you're too clueless to grasp that it was
entirely your delusion.

I'm sorry you can't carry on a simple conversation, but it'd
not my problem.

I suggest you read:

Message-ID: <[email protected]>

UCLAN:
ATX supplies are no different from AT supplies when it comes to
the discharge rate of the 300v buss. It varies with design. I
always kept a 47K bleed resistor handy when playing with _any_
SMPS, AT or ATX.

kony:
Yes they are different! Surely I dont need to tell you why?
Hint: 5VSB


You were wrong, and don't have the "boys" to admit it, so you accuse
me of "diverging on a tangent." Nice try, but unsuccessful.

You keep getting confused, it was you that was wrong because
you were the one originally posing the bold statement that
they are "no different from AT supplies". That was clearly
a statement made in error.

I posted "Hint: 5VSB".
That is, in fact, a difference, and in fact, a potential
reason why they WILL drain faster.

Did I ever write "100%" or "all"? No, even though the vast
majority do.

Your pedantic ramblings serve no purpose, did it ever occur
to you that rather than wasting time you might just spend
the time actually gathering data? I know, it alludes to
that "science" word again and we don't want to consider
that...
 
K

kony

Again, it seems as though *you* are the ignorant one. The momentary
ON/OFF switch on the front panel goes to the INPUT of a logic circuit
on the motherboard.

Congratulations, you've stated nothing new and nothing that
supports your erroneous guess yet, but let's keep reading
and see how much more BS you'll spew...
It is the OUTPUT of this logic circuit that pulls
down the PS_ON input, turning on the PSU. But, this will only occur
as long as this logic chips Vcc - the +5vsb - is high enough to allow
this chip to operate.

So it's news that a chip only operates when it's supply is
above a minimal threshold? I hate to break it to you, but
these are basic facts that you might as well just skip over
as they only show stupidity in coverage instead of just
skipping right to the part where you were wrong.

Once the PSU has been unplugged, the +5vsb rapidly
diminishes, leaving the logic circuit benign. Push the ON/OFF switch
all you want. It will accomplish nothing.

you can't have it both ways... previously you tried to claim
the psu won't drain, yet it has to if the 5VSB diminishes,
because it does, in fact, no longer run from a 60Hz
transformer. You don't want to be bothered with facts
though, you learned one idea a long time ago and your closed
mind prevented any further learning since then.

Unfortunately your ego prevented continuing your education
and basic scientific methodology. IF you had bothered to to
do that, you would not just read a spec sheet and GUESS you
suddenly know what the industry is doing, would realize that
"suggestions" in a spec sheet are very, very often ignored.

Fact is, plenty of ATX PSU, including many of the most
common models, do not settle below the 5VSB threshold in a
few ms. If you had ever bothered to do any testing instead
of just pretending to know by reading a line of text, OUT of
context, your error rate would be greatly reduced.

You don't want to do that though- can't be bothered to,
apparently, and so you remain ignorant. Arguing without any
evidence is a fools folly. Randomly order a power supply
from Newegg right now- bet you it doesn't drain the 5VSB in
a few dozen ms.


A) I am not going to assume what revision of ATX PSU he has, and
B) nothing you wrote above (with mouth foaming) changes the fact
that pushing or repeated pushing of the front panel ON/OFF switch
after the PSU has been unplugged does NOTHING in the way of discharging
the 300v buss, contrary to your beliefs.


Has nothing to do with belief, has to do with the simplest
of tests- voltage measurement. I shudder to think what a
mess any technical work would be if we only relied on those
who read one sentence and never bothered to get any
experience.

Whether the 5VSB circuit has enough voltage to keep the
logic stable depends on the system load on it. With a
system that doesn't heavy load it, it may be high enough
after a couple seconds still. I could care less whether you
agree because it is a real, observed event and that always
trumps a vague guess based on misinterpretation of
literature. You don't actually have any experience
whatsoever do you? You appear to be someone who has bought
a computer, never even touched a power supply rather than
just reading bits and pieces of information out of context
rather than seeing it in reference to real-world designs
actually used.

If the system is more heavily loading the 5VSB rail, it may
not trigger the PS-On circuit. Even so, the PSU still
drains the caps.

This is getting silly, every single post you make is so
misinformed I have to wonder if you're just trolling.
 
U

UCLAN

kony said:
yes, "almost always".

Why is this in quotes? It is the first time you have uttered this
disclaimer. Don't hurt yourself back stepping.
Never did I claim a 60Hz transformer running of the mains
would drain the HV caps. You made that assumption entirely
on your own.

You insisted that an ATX PSU would have a faster discharging 300v
buss circuit regardless of the type of +5vsb circuit. This can only
mean that you thought that a 60hz transformer fed +5vsb circuit
somehow discharged the 300v buss circuit. Now, in your latest post,
you have added the caveat "almost always." Covering your tracks?
You keep getting confused, it was you that was wrong because
you were the one originally posing the bold statement that
they are "no different from AT supplies". That was clearly
a statement made in error.

Heh. Nice snip. My entire quote included the words "ATX supplies are no
different from AT supplies when it comes to the discharge rate of the
300v buss. *IT VARIES BY DESIGN*" as shown above. And it does vary by
design. That fact is incontrovertible.

You were wrong. Have the stones to admit it.
 

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