Help a newbie out. Play find the bottleneck!

[ryan.macintosh86]

So I just rebuilt my desktop, and I'm rather proud of myself, as I've
never installed a mobo or CPU before. Unfourtunately, I'm not getting
quite the performance I expected out of this rig. I'm think I'm pretty
sure the bottleneck is my graphics card, but I thought I'd get a
second opinion before shelling out any cash for a new one.

Here's my Specs:

MOBO: Asrock 4coredual-SATA2
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 (stock 2.53ghz, but overclocked slightly
up to 2.8ghz. I had it at 2.85ghz, but I gota BSOD or two so I backed
off a bit)
RAM: 2GB DDR2-667 (corsair brand, if that matters)
HD: I can't remember the name of the manufacturer but it's SATAII and
500GB
Graphics Card: Radeon X1300 pro (AGP X8)
OS: windows xp SP3
PSU: The PSU is a generic thing that came with the case. This computer
used to be a 1.8ghz celeron from the office. I can't remember the
wattage, but I think it might be 250w.


Now, my mobo has both AGP and PCI-E but even though the PCI-E slot is
X16, the manual says it only runs at X4. Some research on the internet
seems to indicate that this shouldn't be a problem, except for the
most expensive high end of cards. Is the graphics card the bottleneck?
If so, reccomendations for a an upgrade? Can I expect to get a smooth
40 FPS out of lets say.... oblivion on full settings at 1280x1024?
Right now I'm getting 9-15fps outdoors, though if I knock the
resolution down I get a steady-ish 15-20fps. Looking at the sky brings
the fps almost to 30.

Thanks in advance

-Ryan

 

[John Doe]

So I just rebuilt my desktop, and I'm rather proud of myself, as
I've never installed a mobo or CPU before. Unfourtunately, I'm not
getting quite the performance I expected out of this rig. I'm
think I'm pretty sure the bottleneck is my graphics card, but I
thought I'd get a second opinion before shelling out any cash for
a new one.

Here's my Specs:

MOBO: Asrock 4coredual-SATA2
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 (stock 2.53ghz, but overclocked
slightly up to 2.8ghz. I had it at 2.85ghz, but I gota BSOD or two
so I backed off a bit)
RAM: 2GB DDR2-667 (corsair brand, if that matters)
HD: I can't remember the name of the manufacturer but it's SATAII
and 500GB
Graphics Card: Radeon X1300 pro (AGP X8)
OS: windows xp SP3
PSU: The PSU is a generic thing that came with the case. This
computer used to be a 1.8ghz celeron from the office. I can't
remember the wattage, but I think it might be 250w.


Now, my mobo has both AGP and PCI-E but even though the PCI-E slot
is X16, the manual says it only runs at X4. Some research on the
internet seems to indicate that this shouldn't be a problem,
except for the most expensive high end of cards. Is the graphics
card the bottleneck? If so, reccomendations for a an upgrade? Can
I expect to get a smooth 40 FPS out of lets say.... oblivion on
full settings at 1280x1024? Right now I'm getting 9-15fps
outdoors, though if I knock the resolution down I get a steady-ish
15-20fps. Looking at the sky brings the fps almost to 30.

I tried to do a search for Oblivion on the Google Groups USENET
archive, but unfortunately your news server is polluting the archive
so badly, finding proper USENET groups is impossible nowadays. I
would ask in a group that plays Oblivion. They are the ones that
know hardware requirements for that game. With some perseverance,
maybe you can find them among all of Google Group's garbage.

 

[ryan.macintosh86]

So I just rebuilt my desktop, and I'm rather proud of myself, as I've
never installed a mobo or CPU before. Unfourtunately, I'm not getting
quite the performance I expected out of this rig. I'm think I'm pretty
sure the bottleneck is my graphics card, but I thought I'd get a
second opinion before shelling out any cash for a new one.

Here's my Specs:

MOBO: Asrock 4coredual-SATA2
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 (stock 2.53ghz, but overclocked slightly
up to 2.8ghz. I had it at 2.85ghz, but I gota BSOD or two so I backed
off a bit)
RAM: 2GB DDR2-667 (corsair brand, if that matters)
HD: I can't remember the name of the manufacturer but it's SATAII and
500GB
Graphics Card: Radeon X1300 pro (AGP X8)
OS: windows xp SP3
PSU: The PSU is a generic thing that came with the case. This computer
used to be a 1.8ghz celeron from the office. I can't remember the
wattage, but I think it might be 250w.

Now, my mobo has both AGP and PCI-E but even though the PCI-E slot is
X16, the manual says it only runs at X4. Some research on the internet
seems to indicate that this shouldn't be a problem, except for the
most expensive high end of cards. Is the graphics card the bottleneck?
If so, reccomendations for a an upgrade? Can I expect to get a smooth
40 FPS out of lets say.... oblivion on full settings at 1280x1024?
Right now I'm getting 9-15fps outdoors, though if I knock the
resolution down I get a steady-ish 15-20fps. Looking at the sky brings
the fps almost to 30.

Thanks in advance

-Ryan

Oh and my soundcard is ancient. It's an Creative SB live!

 

[ryan.macintosh86]

I tried to do a search for Oblivion on the Google Groups USENET
archive, but unfortunately your news server is polluting the archive
so badly, finding proper USENET groups is impossible nowadays. I
would ask in a group that plays Oblivion. They are the ones that
know hardware requirements for that game. With some perseverance,
maybe you can find them among all of Google Group's garbage.

Oblivion was just an example frame of refrence. I'm interested in
making my PC get good FPS, period. In any modern game.

 

[Paul]

So I just rebuilt my desktop, and I'm rather proud of myself, as I've
never installed a mobo or CPU before. Unfourtunately, I'm not getting
quite the performance I expected out of this rig. I'm think I'm pretty
sure the bottleneck is my graphics card, but I thought I'd get a
second opinion before shelling out any cash for a new one.

Here's my Specs:

MOBO: Asrock 4coredual-SATA2
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 (stock 2.53ghz, but overclocked slightly
up to 2.8ghz. I had it at 2.85ghz, but I gota BSOD or two so I backed
off a bit)
RAM: 2GB DDR2-667 (corsair brand, if that matters)
HD: I can't remember the name of the manufacturer but it's SATAII and
500GB
Graphics Card: Radeon X1300 pro (AGP X8)
OS: windows xp SP3
PSU: The PSU is a generic thing that came with the case. This computer
used to be a 1.8ghz celeron from the office. I can't remember the
wattage, but I think it might be 250w.


Now, my mobo has both AGP and PCI-E but even though the PCI-E slot is
X16, the manual says it only runs at X4. Some research on the internet
seems to indicate that this shouldn't be a problem, except for the
most expensive high end of cards. Is the graphics card the bottleneck?
If so, reccomendations for a an upgrade? Can I expect to get a smooth
40 FPS out of lets say.... oblivion on full settings at 1280x1024?
Right now I'm getting 9-15fps outdoors, though if I knock the
resolution down I get a steady-ish 15-20fps. Looking at the sky brings
the fps almost to 30.

Thanks in advance

-Ryan

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2747&p=3
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2747&p=4

You can see they were using more than an X1300. Much more.
And they don't average 40FPS all the time either.

The purpose of a 4coredual-SATA2, as I see it, is for someone
who owns a really really good AGP video card, one they cannot
bear to part with. Then, the trick is, to select the right
processor to go with the new motherboard, given the FSB1066
limit (and limited OC headroom above that). Your 2.8GHz,
over the 2.53GHz stock, sounds about right. And using a dual
was also a good choice, as a quad might not have overclocked
at all.

Now, are you trying to preserve that X1300, or is the real video
card about to arrive soon ? An X1300 is good for testing,
but wouldn't be a card I'd be trying to save particularly.

In terms of interfaces, the AGP on that board is AGP 8X or
2166MB/sec max. The PCI Express x16 slot, is wired for x4,
or 1000MB/sec bidirectional. The PCI Express slot is not
really your first choice with that board, and the AGP is
a more likely reason to be purchasing the board. If you
were really going PCI Express right away, then there'd be no point
in a board like the 4coredual-SATA2. You'd buy a good PCI
Express based board instead. There is nothing stopping you
from using a PCI Express video card, but you'd be lopping
10-15% off its 3DMark by putting it in a slot like that.
So the board is primarily for AGP people, with the "option" of
"testing" a PCI Express, until you get the funds for a board
with a fully wired slot.

So the summary is -

"More AGP card, please"

If the PSU is really 250W, then you'd better get a power
consumption number for the replacement video card, to decide
what to do about it. 250W might not be enough, depending
on which rail the PSU puts most of that juice into.

This would be a pretty nice card, assuming there aren't any
driver issues. (With modern AGP cards, you want to be
extremely careful about drivers and driver quality. You
never know how long driver updates will be available,
updates that make a difference. Read reviews on running
Oblivion on HD 3850 AGP before you buy.)

(Starting at about $140 USD)
http://www.gpureview.com/Radeon-HD-3850-AGP-card-550.html

Perhaps a used one of these might be kicking around somewhere.
This is less likely to be for sale at retail.

http://www.gpureview.com/Radeon-X1950-Pro-AGP-card-471.html

For a power estimate on HD 3850, here is an example. The measurements
in this article, are for PCI Express cards, but the AGP should
use about the same amount of power (plus a few more watts for
Rialto bridge). About 12V @ 5A should be enough to run the
HD 3850. Your processor is 12V @ 6A, when maxed at stock speed
(based on TDP and 90% eff Vcore conversion). So the power supply
might benefit from being at least 15 amps on the 12V rail. If
you do decide to upgrade the power supply, don't buy something
marginally bigger than the 250W (like buying a 260W would be
dumb). Get something that you expect will cover your future
requirements as well.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/gigabyte-radeonhd3870-3850_5.html

Here is a chart at 1280x1024 for Oblivion - to compare video cards. I
had to line wrap the link, so glue it into one line before using it.
Naturally, your mileage may vary (because who knows what uber
processor they used for testing).

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/desktop-vga-charts/oblivion-the-elder-scrolls-4-outdoor,569.html?
p=1599%2C1590%2C1616%2C1612%2C1615%2C1636%2C1639%2C1572%2C1627%2C1607%2C1618

HTH,
Paul

 

[ryan.macintosh86]

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipset...dtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2747&p=4

You can see they were using more than an X1300. Much more.
And they don't average 40FPS all the time either.

The purpose of a 4coredual-SATA2, as I see it, is for someone
who owns a really really good AGP video card, one they cannot
bear to part with. Then, the trick is, to select the right
processor to go with the new motherboard, given the FSB1066
limit (and limited OC headroom above that). Your 2.8GHz,
over the 2.53GHz stock, sounds about right. And using a dual
was also a good choice, as a quad might not have overclocked
at all.

Now, are you trying to preserve that X1300, or is the real video
card about to arrive soon ? An X1300 is good for testing,
but wouldn't be a card I'd be trying to save particularly.

In terms of interfaces, the AGP on that board is AGP 8X or
2166MB/sec max. The PCI Express x16 slot, is wired for x4,
or 1000MB/sec bidirectional. The PCI Express slot is not
really your first choice with that board, and the AGP is
a more likely reason to be purchasing the board. If you
were really going PCI Express right away, then there'd be no point
in a board like the 4coredual-SATA2. You'd buy a good PCI
Express based board instead. There is nothing stopping you
from using a PCI Express video card, but you'd be lopping
10-15% off its 3DMark by putting it in a slot like that.
So the board is primarily for AGP people, with the "option" of
"testing" a PCI Express, until you get the funds for a board
with a fully wired slot.

So the summary is -

   "More AGP card, please"

If the PSU is really 250W, then you'd better get a power
consumption number for the replacement video card, to decide
what to do about it. 250W might not be enough, depending
on which rail the PSU puts most of that juice into.

This would be a pretty nice card, assuming there aren't any
driver issues. (With modern AGP cards, you want to be
extremely careful about drivers and driver quality. You
never know how long driver updates will be available,
updates that make a difference. Read reviews on running
Oblivion on HD 3850 AGP before you buy.)

(Starting at about $140 USD)http://www.gpureview.com/Radeon-HD-3850-AGP-card-550.html

Perhaps a used one of these might be kicking around somewhere.
This is less likely to be for sale at retail.

http://www.gpureview.com/Radeon-X1950-Pro-AGP-card-471.html

For a power estimate on HD 3850, here is an example. The measurements
in this article, are for PCI Express cards, but the AGP should
use about the same amount of power (plus a few more watts for
Rialto bridge). About 12V @ 5A should be enough to run the
HD 3850. Your processor is 12V @ 6A, when maxed at stock speed
(based on TDP and 90% eff Vcore conversion). So the power supply
might benefit from being at least 15 amps on the 12V rail. If
you do decide to upgrade the power supply, don't buy something
marginally bigger than the 250W (like buying a 260W would be
dumb). Get something that you expect will cover your future
requirements as well.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/gigabyte-radeonhd3870-...

Here is a chart at 1280x1024 for Oblivion - to compare video cards. I
had to line wrap the link, so glue it into one line before using it.
Naturally, your mileage may vary (because who knows what uber
processor they used for testing).

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/desktop-vga-charts/oblivion-the-el...
     p=1599%2C1590%2C1616%2C1612%2C1615%2C1636%2C1639%2C1572%2C1627%2C1607%2C1618

HTH,
    Paul

Thanks Paul! The story behind how I ended up with this mobo, is a lack
of research on my part. The spec sheet at asrock said it was a X16
plug, so I just assumed it would run at that speed. Now I feel a
little dumb. I was planning to use my old radeon until I could afford
an pci-e upgrade, but I guess I'm sticking with AGP now. And probably
ATI. Pity, I was considering trying an NVIDA card this time round.

 

[Paul]

Thanks Paul! The story behind how I ended up with this mobo, is a lack
of research on my part. The spec sheet at asrock said it was a X16
plug, so I just assumed it would run at that speed. Now I feel a
little dumb. I was planning to use my old radeon until I could afford
an pci-e upgrade, but I guess I'm sticking with AGP now. And probably
ATI. Pity, I was considering trying an NVIDA card this time round.

Is the motherboard in the "return period" ? Could you return it
for a restocking fee, or exchange for another board ? Could you
sell the board, to get some of the money back ?

If you could return the board, then another (PCI Express) board
might be a few more bucks, plus the price of a decent PCI Express
video card. So you need to figure out whether the budget will stretch
that far.

Buying another AGP card is a dead end purchase, in the sense that the
4coredual-SATA2 is the only place you can use it. There aren't likely
to be a lot of AGP motherboards in the future, so carrying an AGP card
forward would be difficult.

Asrock is tricky. This is not the first board with a "surprise"
hiding inside. The fun part is reading between the lines, and
figuring out where the shortcuts are. (I like to research the
chipsets, because from the available information, I can tell when
there aren't enough PCI Express lanes for a proper slot.)

One of the ways I detect cheating...

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/chipsets/p4-series/comparison_p4-series.jsp

Paul

 

[John Doe]

Then you will need a 500 watt PSU

Power supply wattage is practically meaningless unless you're
talking about a name brand power supply.

 

[John Doe]

Oblivion was just an example frame of refrence.

Is it a useless example?

I'm interested in making my PC get good FPS, period.
In any modern game.

I saw that question implied in your original post, but it didn't
make sense since you are far from that. Your system is too slow,
there is no one bottleneck.

 

[ryan.macintosh86]

So I just rebuilt my desktop, and I'm rather proud of myself, as I've
never installed a mobo or CPU before. Unfourtunately, I'm not getting
quite the performance I expected out of this rig. I'm think I'm pretty
sure the bottleneck is my graphics card, but I thought I'd get a
second opinion before shelling out any cash for a new one.

Here's my Specs:

MOBO: Asrock 4coredual-SATA2
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 (stock 2.53ghz, but overclocked slightly
up to 2.8ghz. I had it at 2.85ghz, but I gota BSOD or two so I backed
off a bit)
RAM: 2GB DDR2-667 (corsair brand, if that matters)
HD: I can't remember the name of the manufacturer but it's SATAII and
500GB
Graphics Card: Radeon X1300 pro (AGP X8)
OS: windows xp SP3
PSU: The PSU is a generic thing that came with the case. This computer
used to be a 1.8ghz celeron from the office. I can't remember the
wattage, but I think it might be 250w.

Now, my mobo has both AGP and PCI-E but even though the PCI-E slot is
X16, the manual says it only runs at X4.

*Correction* it only runs at X8. Still not X16 :S


Some research on the internet

 

[ryan.macintosh86]

*Correction* it only runs at X8. Still not X16 :S

I mean X4. Bah. Beer + usenet = no good.

 

[ryan.macintosh86]

Thanks again for the help everyone. I ended up returning the MOBO to
NCIX. I came back from the outlet today with a ASUS P5Q pro.
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=30418&vpn=P5Q Pro&manufacture=ASUS

I'll have to wait week for the graphics card, but that's fine, I have
a lappy for work in the meantime. And full refund, no restocking fee.
Woot!

 

[John Doe]

Thanks again for the help everyone. I ended up returning the MOBO to
NCIX. I came back from the outlet today with a ASUS P5Q pro.

That should help. When you wrote "Radeon X1300 pro (AGP X8)" that AGP
part (even if it also has PCI-E) looked bad to me.

You probably need a better power supply too.

Good luck and have fun.