hardware Problem?

G

Guest

Hi, I have been having trouble with my computer for sometime now reason for
which I reformatted and clean installed XP Pro but the problem is still
there. My PC does the following at ramdom and quite frequently: sometimes
it freezes, other times it just decides to re-boot while I am using it, other
times it just turns off completely and will not start up again until I remove
the power supply cable let it sit for a few minutes and replug the cable,
other times at rebooting stops and will not complete boot up. I just don't
know whether it might be a hardware problem and if so which component. My PC
is 6 years old pentium 4. Please does anyone have any idea as to what it
might be or how to go about finding out the reason for this behavour.
Please help any advice is greatly appreciated
Thank you Elly
 
P

peter

Could you post some specs of your machine....otherwise we are just flying
blind.
But here are some suggestions.
Overheating can cause shutdown......when was the last time you cleaned the
dust out?
Stop during cold boot but start after can designate a failing power
supply...not enough power to spin up all the devices.
When you reinstalled the OS did you also reinstall the motherboard drivers
for your specific motherboard chipset?? the Video Drivers for your Video
Card??
peter
 
D

DL

Or did you make the mistake of using MS Update for hardware drivers?

Also see Event Viewer via Help, it might give a clue
 
G

Guest

Hi Peter, Thank you for your response. PC's specifications are

OS: XP Pro, SP2
Cpu: P4, 1600mhz
Motherboard : ECSP4S5A (5PCI, 1AGP, 1AMR, 2Dimm, 2 DDR DiMM, audio SiS645)
Memory: 512 MB (SDRAM)
BIOS: AMI (11/07/01)
Video Adapter NVIDIA
3D Accelerator Nvidia
HD 40GB

I have been having this problem for quite sometime, that is the reason why I
decided to reinstall OS hoping that it will solve the problem but it has made
no difference. The thing is that the problems I mentioned do not happen on a
certain pattern, there are times when the computer behaves normally, boots up
normally and does not freeze or turn off for a few hours, after a few hours
it will eventually turn off by itself, the time expand till it turns off
varies from 1 hour up to about 5 hours or over. Also another weird behavoir
is that sometimes the CPU usage seems to jump to a high 80 to 90% without any
change of the usage of PC, it appears to be performing lots of processes
while I might just be using word, not downloading or anything extreme, and
sometimes this is the time when it turns off it seems to be overwhelmed by
all the processes it is performing. I have cleaned the computer inside not
too long ago, so it will not be dust. Thank you for your help I really
appreciate it.
Elly
 
A

Anna

elly said:
Hi Peter, Thank you for your response. PC's specifications are

OS: XP Pro, SP2
Cpu: P4, 1600mhz
Motherboard : ECSP4S5A (5PCI, 1AGP, 1AMR, 2Dimm, 2 DDR DiMM, audio SiS645)
Memory: 512 MB (SDRAM)
BIOS: AMI (11/07/01)
Video Adapter NVIDIA
3D Accelerator Nvidia
HD 40GB

I have been having this problem for quite sometime, that is the reason why
I
decided to reinstall OS hoping that it will solve the problem but it has
made
no difference. The thing is that the problems I mentioned do not happen
on a
certain pattern, there are times when the computer behaves normally, boots
up
normally and does not freeze or turn off for a few hours, after a few
hours
it will eventually turn off by itself, the time expand till it turns off
varies from 1 hour up to about 5 hours or over. Also another weird
behavoir
is that sometimes the CPU usage seems to jump to a high 80 to 90% without
any
change of the usage of PC, it appears to be performing lots of processes
while I might just be using word, not downloading or anything extreme, and
sometimes this is the time when it turns off it seems to be overwhelmed by
all the processes it is performing. I have cleaned the computer inside
not
too long ago, so it will not be dust. Thank you for your help I really
appreciate it.
Elly


Elly:
First of all let me get this out of the way...

When you say "I have cleaned the computer inside not too long ago, so it
will not be dust", I assume you performed this "cleaning" *after* the
problem you describe arose, right? You didn't *first* encounter the problems
you describe *after* you performed this "cleaning", right? I raise this
question because we've come across so many problems that occurred following
a user's "cleaning" of his or her machine. Users must understand that this
is *not* an innocuous procedure - it is very easy to damage computer
components if one is not very careful in undertaking this "cleaning"
process. Frankly, sometimes I'm tempted to advise all users not to "clean"
their PCs - leave them be, dust & all. Or take the machine to a professional
should cleaning be necessary.

Anyway...

It's hard, if not impossible to tell at this distance what is causing the
problems you describe. It could be either hardware or software-based,
although it does initially sound like a hardware problem.

1. I assume you're currently backing up your important files & folders. Make
sure you're doing this. Better yet would be to use a disk imaging program to
clone the contents of your present HDD to another HDD, either internal or
external.

2. Download the HDD diagnostic utility from the manufacturer of your HDD and
check it out. Also, check out your RAM with a memory diagnostic such as the
one you can download from MS - see
http://oca.microsoft.com/en/windiag.asp#Top

3. Although it's something of a shot-in-the-dark, it might be wise at this
point to try a Repair install of the XP OS on the chance that the problem
results from a corrupted OS. While it really doesn't sound like this is the
case, it might be worth a try. Again, before undertaking a Repair install
back up your important data.

4. We're assuming that your system is malware-free and that you've checked
it out with your A-V and other malware-detecting programs.

5. As "peter" indicated the problem could result from a failing power
supply. The only practical way to tell would be to replace the current one
with a known working PS.

6. You've checked your graphics/video card & RAM modules and they all seem
to be seated properly? Ditto the heatsink on your processor? The CPU fan is
connected? All connections seem OK?

As I'm sure you're aware, assuming this is a hardware problem affecting one
or another major component in the PC, the only practical way for the
end-user (in most cases) to determine the cause of the problem is to
substitute known "good" components for one or more possible defective
components.

We can go on from here, but try the above first...
Anna
 
G

Guest

Hi Anna, thank you for providing me with so much info and advice. My PC was
playing up way before I cleaned it, the new OS installation (5 days ago)
could not be cause of the problem, I did not upgrade but reformatted besides
the problem has been there for months and months. I will try all the rest of
advice given and hopefully will find the source of problem. What has got me
puzzled is the fact that there are times when it works so fine for hours or
days and other times I have to boot and reboot it so many times before it
settles down whithout freezing, rebooting on its own in the middle of
anything or just powering itself off. Anyway I will Post further info on
development of my search for the source of trouble.
Thank you, Peter and DL for your help

Cheers

Elly
 
W

w_tom

5. As "peter" indicated the problem could result from a failingpowersupply.
The only practical way to tell would be to replace the current one
with a known working PS.

Going beyond Anna's point; don't fix anything until something is
identified as defective. For example, a fan that does not spin; only
then is the fan considered for replacement. If it spins, do you
replace it anyway? Yes, if doing shotgunning.

Unfortunately, Anna's point five is in error. For example, if all
doors are sticking inside a house, do you plane down the doors to make
them fit? Of course not. First confirm the house foundation is not
crumbling.

A power supply is a computer's foundation. Anything can appear
intermittent or defective if power supply integrity is not
established. Your power supply could be 'crumbling' for more than six
months to create intermittents. A computer works fine for hours or
days before crashing because power supply has been defective for 6+
months - maybe even when first provided.

Power supply is a first hardware check; performed in but two minutes
with a 3.5 digit multimeter. A tool so ubiquitous as to be sold even
in K-mart. A tool so simple that even Ipods are more complex. A tool
as necessary as a screwdriver if one is going to fix things
electrical. And sold in most stores that also sell screwdrivers. If
a meter is too complex, then you had no business cleaning out dust.

In your case, execute multiple programs so that all peripherals are
accessed simultaneously (multitasking). IOW display complex graphics
(from a movie), while reading a floppy and hard drive simultaneously,
while downloading something from the net. Now take four voltage
measurements. Measure a voltage on one of each colored wire from
power supply to motherboard. Readings on orange, purple, red, and
yellow wires must exceed 3.23, 4.87, and 11.7 volts. If true, then
power supply 'system' (not just a power supply) is known good.
Furthermore, you now have numbers to post here so that more
knowledgeable posters might add useful information. Your replies will
only be as good as the facts and numbers you provide.

With power supply known god, only then move on to other suspects.

Heat is not a reason for failure. When others cite heat as
problems, well, that is too common among those who did not learn how
hardware works. Heat is a diagnostic tool. Currently your system is
intermittent. If problem can be made hard, then the problem is easily
located Computers consider a room at 100 degree F as 'pigs
heaven'. Only computers with defective hardware fail when room temp
exceeds 100. Even a computer full of dust must work just fine in a
100 degree room.

Another diagnostic method is to heat selective components with a
hair dryer on highest heat settings. So hot as to be uncomfortable to
touch; but not leave skin. If a warmed part causes failure, well,
that is a 100% defective part. Those who never learned hardware,
instead, want to cure that defective part with "more fans".

As Anna noted, get diagnostics. Responsible computer manufacturers
provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free (on computer and
on their web site). If your manufacturer is not so responsible, then
(painfully) download each diagnostic separately from the component
vendor. Best test is each diagnostic at 70 degrees; then repeated at
100 degrees. That also includes memory diagnostics.

Unfortunately, by trying to fix things first, you have destroyed
what could have identified the suspect. Windows was reloaded only on
wild speculation. Therefore system (event) logs were destroyed. Logs
with history of what failed previously. Just another example of why
responsible techs first learn what is defective long before trying to
fix things.

Three simple tasks to include what Anna has posted. First (and
before any other hardware analysis), get a 3.5 digit multimeter and
get those voltage measurements because your symptoms are also typical
of a supply that has been defective for more than 6 months. Don't
verify a power supply by swapping power supplies. Remember, it is a
power supply 'system' - not just a power supply.

Also perform hardware diagnostics; and repeat at elevated
temperatures.

And finally review system (event) logs to discover what has been
detected by the OS as defective (intermittent).

The last thing to do is swap parts. Swapping occurs only after a
suspect has been identified. Shotgunning (whether with computers,
cars, or satellites) is always the indication of one who has not a
clue; therefore is 'firing a shotgun into the dark'. Even trained
soldiers don't do that.

And again, your replies here will only be as good as the numbers you
provide. Demonstated also is how to obtain information from better
informed lurkers.

Nothing posted above is beyond abilities of anyone who can learn to
drive a car. However some fear only because they never did it before.
 
G

Guest

w_tom
I thank you for taking the time to explain the possible causes of my PC's
problem. I have long suspected the power failing to be the culprit but have
not taken any action mainly because I thought it was too difficult to do. I
shall try to follow your instructions and hopefully find out whether it is
failing power or some other component that is not working propertly. thanks
again for all the information provided.

Elly
 
P

Paul

elly said:
Hi Anna, thank you for providing me with so much info and advice. My PC was
playing up way before I cleaned it, the new OS installation (5 days ago)
could not be cause of the problem, I did not upgrade but reformatted besides
the problem has been there for months and months. I will try all the rest of
advice given and hopefully will find the source of problem. What has got me
puzzled is the fact that there are times when it works so fine for hours or
days and other times I have to boot and reboot it so many times before it
settles down whithout freezing, rebooting on its own in the middle of
anything or just powering itself off. Anyway I will Post further info on
development of my search for the source of trouble.
Thank you, Peter and DL for your help

Cheers

Elly

One thing I notice in the picture of the board, is it has no 2x2 ATX12V power
connector. That means all the power for the processor flows through the
main power connector (20 pin).

http://www.ixbt.com/mainboard/images/roundup-sis645-feb2k2/p4s5a-board.jpg

I would depress the tab on the main connector, pull it out, and inspect it
for damage. The pins should be shiny and there should not be any
white oxide or discoloration.

Another visual check, is a check for failing capacitors. They look like
this, and are the aluminum cylinders with plastic sleeving, near the CPU
socket. The tops can be bulged if they are bad, or you will see a
brown stain from a dried liquid, near the base of the capacitor.
A capacitor that has "blown", will load the regulator, and can cause
it to shut down.

http://www.badcaps.net/images/caps/kt7/image005.png

The increase in CPU activity can be many things. It could be an
"interrupt storm", where a storm of empty interrupts is sent by a
badly designed motherboard chip, to the processor. The processor
runs the interrupt handler, and sees that there is nothing to do,
and carries on. But if this happens thousands of times a second,
it will keep the CPU pretty busy.

I don't see a lot of extra peripheral chips to do that on the board.
The LAN looks like perhaps the MAC layer is in the motherboard
chipset, and an RTL8201 PHY drives the Ethernet cable. In other
words, the motherboard's main chips look to be responsible for
most of the functions on the board. There is the SuperI/O for
some functions (like floppy), but I've never read of any problems
with SuperI/O and interrupts.

If you added PCI cards to the system, maybe one of them is
kicking up a fuss.

Some of your symptoms are consistent with a power or heat problem.
If it wasn't for the CPU activity rising to 80-90%, I'd be looking
for damage on the motherboard, or a bad PSU.

If it turns out you needed a replacement power supply, something
like this has good reviews. The peak output power is suitable for
older computers, especially where you don't know what rail they
are powering the processor with. This has plenty of +5V (used
by old Athlon designs) and plenty of +12V (used by Pentium processors).

+3.3V@32A, +5V@32A, +12V@26A, -5V@1A, -12V@1A, [email protected]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16817103455

That PSU comes with a 20+4 connector for the main power. The four
pins on the left hand side, slide off the connector, leaving a
20 pin chunk to plug to your motherboard.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/17-103-455-06.jpg

Not all problems in a computer, can be established with precision
by just looking at the thing, or making a few measurements. Sometimes
it takes component swapping, to quickly and economically find a solution.
(Spending two weeks with a logic analyser, you can imagine what the
repair bill would be.) Don't be afraid to take it to a shop you trust,
for further assistance.

In terms of replacement motherboards, you might still be able to find
some Intel branded S478 motherboards around. You would need to do
a repair install, to change the motherboard out, which will clean
up the driver differences.

Paul
 

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