Hardware Backup

[Bob]

I have been evaluating the Enermax ES-352 3.5" PATA HD backup system
for a couple months now. It works roughly as advertised in the backup
mode if you are careful about what disk-based s/w you are running.

However, the manufacturer is unwilling to support the unit in terms of
providing extra trays or s/w fixes. I am having my supplier work on
finding out why they are unwilling to support their product, and based
on what I find out, I may send it back for a full refund.

So, I am doing some research ahead of time, looking for a hardware
controller (IDE, PATA), that will connect to two HDs and operate them
as a backup pair. The Source HD must be capable of being the boot
device.

I do not want any of the backup function to be dependent on backup s/w
such as Acronis or its ilk. I want the controller to act like RAID 1
but only at designated times. IOW, at a designated time, the
controller will create a mirror of the Source HD onto a Target HD, and
once the mirror is completed, it will detach from the Target until the
next backup cycle.

Such a system would include two removeable bays (Kingwin KF-23) and
three trays - that way I could backup once each day and then rotate
the 3-disk set once a week, keeping the third tray on the shelf.

Promise and others make RAID 1 controllers but I do not know if they
can function as one-time backup units. I tried to find out on their
website but all they talk about is RAID.

The reason for wanting a controller that is capable of RAID 1 is
because the backup would be done in real time without having to shut
the system down. That's how mirroring works, so it is the ideal
strategy for making the kind of backup I want. All I really need is
for the controller program to schedule the mirror build and then stop
the continuing RAID functionality once the mirror is completely built,
thereby freezing the mirror in time.

 

[Bennett Price]

Think about a software solution - Symantec's Ghost or similar disk
imaging software. It will give you a quasi-mirror of the source.
"Quasi" because the source must be restored via sw, you can't just put
the target disk in and boot from it.

 

[Bob]

Think about a software solution - Symantec's Ghost or similar disk
imaging software. It will give you a quasi-mirror of the source.
"Quasi" because the source must be restored via sw, you can't just put
the target disk in and boot from it.

Thank you for your reply, but please don't top post. It's considered
rude because the reply is istant from the last part of what is being
replied to. Just snip out the stuff that is no longer relevant, keep
the stuff you are replying to, and put your reply after it. That way
the reader can pick up the context of your reply quickly.

I have used disk imaging s/w before and I do not care for it, not even
Acronis. To get a true mirror, the computer must be booted out of
Windows, and I do not want that. Acronis claims that their imaging
utilities can make a perfect clone of the disk even while Windows is
running, but I do not trust it nor do I want a disk image, for the
reason you give.

All I am asking is for the maker of a RAID 1 controller to enhance
their control application to include the backup scenario. That should
be very straightforward to implement.

Since I first posted, I wrote Promise. Maybe they already have
something available.


--

Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html

The world is governed by very different personages from
what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes.
-- Benjamin Disraeli

 

[Timothy Daniels]

I have used disk imaging s/w before and I do not care for it,
not even Acronis. To get a true mirror, the computer must be
booted out of Windows, and I do not want that. Acronis claims
that their imaging utilities can make a perfect clone of the disk
even while Windows is running, but I do not trust it nor do I want
a disk image, for the reason you give.

Try cloning instead of imaging. A clone can be booted, an image
must be "restored", involving a another copy operation. I have what
is variously called a "removeable tray", "mobile rack", "disk caddy",
and I periodically clone the entire operating system partition to
preserve its state and the data on it to one of 4 partitions on the HD
in the removeable tray. I also have other trays which slide into the rack,
and I can keep up to 12 archived versions of the O.S. partition. Ghost
and Casper XP are able to clone a specific partition from one HD to
a HD that may already contain other partitions, but True Image just
clones the *entire* source HD to an *entire* destination HD. And with
Casper XP, Windows never goes away. If the HD for the currently-
running O.S. fails, or if the currently-running O.S. gets corrupted, I just
slide in the tray containing the HD with the archived O.S. of my choice,
and I boot it up, and I'm back in business. If it's just a single file that I
need, the archived O.S. partitions just appear as "Local Disks" (i.e.
partitions with a file structure), and I can simply drag 'n drop the
archived file to the running O.S.'s partition.
Post if you want more details.

*TimDaniels*

 

[MrGrumpy]

I'm being rude

Thank you for your reply, but please don't top post. It's considered
rude because the reply is istant from the last part of what is being
replied to. Just snip out the stuff that is no longer relevant, keep
the stuff you are replying to, and put your reply after it. That way
the reader can pick up the context of your reply quickly.

I have used disk imaging s/w before and I do not care for it, not even
Acronis. To get a true mirror, the computer must be booted out of
Windows, and I do not want that. Acronis claims that their imaging
utilities can make a perfect clone of the disk even while Windows is
running, but I do not trust it nor do I want a disk image, for the
reason you give.

All I am asking is for the maker of a RAID 1 controller to enhance
their control application to include the backup scenario. That should
be very straightforward to implement.

Since I first posted, I wrote Promise. Maybe they already have
something available.


--

Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html

The world is governed by very different personages from
what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes.
-- Benjamin Disraeli

 

[Bennett Price]

I'll be rude again and point out that Raid 1 sets can be broken with
software the controller mfrs supply. You could clone a drive, break the
set, stick in a new target, and when ready, 'rebuild'. I doubt,
however, whether you could schedule such an operation.

 

[Bob]

Try cloning instead of imaging. A clone can be booted, an image
must be "restored", involving a another copy operation. I have what
is variously called a "removeable tray", "mobile rack", "disk caddy",
and I periodically clone the entire operating system partition to
preserve its state and the data on it to one of 4 partitions on the HD
in the removeable tray. I also have other trays which slide into the rack,
and I can keep up to 12 archived versions of the O.S. partition. Ghost
and Casper XP are able to clone a specific partition from one HD to
a HD that may already contain other partitions, but True Image just
clones the *entire* source HD to an *entire* destination HD. And with
Casper XP, Windows never goes away. If the HD for the currently-
running O.S. fails, or if the currently-running O.S. gets corrupted, I just
slide in the tray containing the HD with the archived O.S. of my choice,
and I boot it up, and I'm back in business. If it's just a single file that I
need, the archived O.S. partitions just appear as "Local Disks" (i.e.
partitions with a file structure), and I can simply drag 'n drop the
archived file to the running O.S.'s partition.
Post if you want more details.

That's what I used to do. I used Drive Image Pro. But the problem is
you have to stop Windows.

By using a RAID 1 scheme, you don't have to stop anything. RAID 1
clones the disk on the fly. To create a backup all you have to do is
stop the RAID 1 process.

If I could find a controller that will do that on a scheduled basis, I
would have what I want.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

That's what I used to do. I used Drive Image Pro. But the problem is
you have to stop Windows.

By using a RAID 1 scheme, you don't have to stop anything. RAID 1
clones the disk on the fly. To create a backup all you have to do is
stop the RAID 1 process.

If I could find a controller that will do that on a scheduled basis, I
would have what I want.

I'm not quite sure what the symptoms and consequences of
"stopping windows" are, but give Casper XP a try. It doesn't
drop out of Windows or necessitate a restart at all as far as I
can see. Try the free downloadable version (good for 30 days)
at www.FSSDev.com/products/CasperXP/ . Unattended
scheduled operation isn't part of its répertoire, though.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Bob]

I'm not quite sure what the symptoms and consequences of
"stopping windows" are, but give Casper XP a try.

I should mention that I am running Win2K.

It doesn't
drop out of Windows or necessitate a restart at all as far as I
can see.

Neither does Acronis if all you are doing is building an image. But if
you are cloning a disk, it has to drop out of Windows - or so I am
told.

Try the free downloadable version (good for 30 days)
at www.FSSDev.com/products/CasperXP/ . Unattended
scheduled operation isn't part of its répertoire, though.

Acronis will do unattended backups, even unattended cloning.

But this is not what I want. I want RAID 1 mirroring but in a backup
format. That's the only way I know where I will get a true clone
without leaving Windows.

In fact the Enermax ES-352 is performing its daily backup as I type
this. Unfortumately it is bug-ridden and the manufacturer does not
want to fix anything. Talking to a distributor I found out that the
unit is not selling well, so I can understand why the manufacturer
does not want to waste any more money. Of course the reason it is not
selling well could be because it doesn't work well. But that's not my
problem.

 

[kony]

But this is not what I want. I want RAID 1 mirroring but in a backup
format. That's the only way I know where I will get a true clone
without leaving Windows.

How about if you simply set up an SATA RAID1 with a pair of
drives, then later unplug one of the drives. When you plug
it back in, the RAID manager should rebuild (providing you
have it set to rebuild) the (newly added) drive regardless
of whether it is blank or the same drive you had previously
disconnected. Granted, it requires phsical action rather
than software-on-a-timer but if you had at least 3 drives
you could have the best of both worlds- have a continual
up-to-date RAID1 with an offline spare too.

 

[Bob]

How about if you simply set up an SATA RAID1 with a pair of
drives,

I do not want to get into SATA at this time. After having spent over
40 years on the bleeding edge of R&D, I want to relax for once. PATA
suits my purposes - it's more reliable and cheaper.

But one day - say in a couple years - I will use it.

then later unplug one of the drives.

Enermax tried to talk me into doing that. They have a RAID 1 control
application which purportedly has fewer bugs. The reason I do not do
that is I want the backup to be unattended. I set it for 4:00 am, and
I do not want to awaken at that time.

if you had at least 3 drives
you could have the best of both worlds- have a continual
up-to-date RAID1 with an offline spare too.

As I mentioned, I do have 3 drives which I rotate thru the system each
Sunday. That way I have a daily backup and a weekly backup on the
shelf. If something goes wrong with the 2 disks in the unit, I can
fall back on the one on the shelf.

But this is not why I bought the Enermax DynaBacker. If I am going to
have to attend to the process, I just as well leave Windows and run a
clone backup. Acronis has a CD-based clone capability that works in
just 12 minutes on my 80 GB HD - the Enermax takes nearly 60 minutes
for its backup.

I will see what Promise has to offer, assuming they get back to me by
email. All I need is RAID 1 with a scheduler to start and stop it when
the mirror is completely built. That should be very simple to
implement in the controller application.