Generation loss with DV?

  • Thread starter Griffo Fooxburr
  • Start date
G

Griffo Fooxburr

Hello all,
I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another
directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming
there are no hardware errors.
What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV
footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire
again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay
attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both
directions?
 
V

Ven Hawkins

It theory it should be totally loss-less, an exact bit for bit copy.
You have to watch out for dropped frames and occasional imperfections
in your tape media. If a frame is dropped, you can usually hear it
when you play the tape and sometimes you can see it. I find this
usually happens during capture and not export. I use a 10,000 rpm
hard drive to reduce the occurance of dropped frames. Imperfections in
your tape will show up on the screen as flashes of "pixelization",
little rectangles that are pretty obvious when you see them. My
suggestion would be to watch your footage in its entirety after every
transfer. It's tedious but worth it.

Ven Hawkins
 
M

Martin Heffels

What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV
footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire
again onto another tape?
Yes

Are there some additional things I should pay
attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both
directions?
Click to expand...

No titles or effects.

-martin-
 
C

C.J.Patten

LOL! I was just re-reading a thread *I* started a couple months ago on
almost EXACTLY the same topic. :)

Look for this subject: "DV25: back and forth generation loss?"
It should answer ALL of your questions on the topic.

C.
 
T

Tony Morgan

Griffo Fooxburr said:
Hello all,
I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another
directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming
there are no hardware errors.
What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV
footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire
again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay
attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both
directions?
Click to expand...
http://www.camcord.info/archiving
 
N

nap

Generation Loss..

No kidding.,. Once I was working on a project wiht DV and when I was done I
felt a generation older. Whew. I think it was a Final Cut Project too.

Does that count?
 
C

C.J.Patten

nap.
pot.
stir.

LOL! ;)



nap said:
Generation Loss..

No kidding.,. Once I was working on a project wiht DV and when I was done
I felt a generation older. Whew. I think it was a Final Cut Project too.

Does that count?
Click to expand...
 
G

Griffo Fooxburr

C.J.Patten said:
LOL! I was just re-reading a thread *I* started a couple months ago on
almost EXACTLY the same topic. :)

Look for this subject: "DV25: back and forth generation loss?"
It should answer ALL of your questions on the topic.

C.
Click to expand...

Actually I found it on Google groups immediatelly after I posted my
question. The trouble is that my NNTP server keeps only about last 30 days
of messages and your "...back and forth..." thread is dated somewhere
mid-March, hence my posting...

Thanks!
 
G

George S. Ellis

Converting to DV-AVI, there is a loss, but it is too small to really matter
(a small fraction less than 1 % - I am thinking it was .01%, but I forgot
where I read the formula). So bopping around as you listed should only lose
that initial compression loss.
 
T

Tony Morgan

Griffo Fooxburr said:
Actually I found it on Google groups immediatelly after I posted my
question. The trouble is that my NNTP server keeps only about last 30
days of messages and your "...back and forth..." thread is dated
somewhere mid-March, hence my posting...
Click to expand...

In which case you might like to use Google to access newsgroup postings
from years back.
 
R

Rehan

Griffo said:
Hello all,
I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another
directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming
there are no hardware errors.
What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV
footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire
again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay
attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both
directions?
Click to expand...

Be warned that although theoretically there should be no generational
loss, in practice there are a few things to look out for:

Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that rendering
in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th frame of
every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips then this
can be significant.
 
P

PeeVee_Hermann

Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that rendering
in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th frame of
every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips then this
can be significant.
Click to expand...


how about rendering to .wmv or .mpg? same problems?

after working with a couple of different cheap video editors, Roxio
and Pinnacle and even goofing about with Premiere Elements, I was
shocked at how easy Windows Movie Maker was. And, it seemed to do
lightweight editing fairly well.

are there any other significant flaws you noticed using Windows Movie
Maker?
 
R

Rehan

... I was shocked at how easy Windows Movie Maker was. And,
it seemed to do lightweight editing fairly well.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree, WMM is very simple but powerful. I am most exceited about its
extensible plugin interface that allows adding even more features at a
fraction of cost to other editors.

are there any other significant flaws you noticed using Windows Movie
Maker?
Click to expand...

The most siginificant is its sensitivity to codecs. Some of the famous
codecs (e.g. divx) makes it crash. Other is its incompatibility with MPEG2
file types. However if you are not affected by these issues then your
relationship with WMM can flourish.
 
T

Tony Morgan

Rehan said:
Be warned that although theoretically there should be no generational
loss, in practice there are a few things to look out for:

Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that rendering
in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th frame of
every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips then this
can be significant.
Click to expand...
For Movie Maker to be useful, you do need to install the Panasonic VFW
DV codec and the DV Type-1 to Type-2 converter. These can be found at
http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/pdvcodec.zip and
http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/dv.zip respectively.
 
G

Griffo Fooxburr

Rehan said:
Be warned that although theoretically there should be no generational
loss, in practice there are a few things to look out for:

Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that
rendering in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th
frame of every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips
then this can be significant.
Click to expand...

Why is that?????? I mean, if it's a known bug is there an official fix? What
does M$ say about that?

Btw, is it every 27th frame or only THE 27th frame in each clip?
 
P

PeeVee_Hermann

Yes I agree, WMM is very simple but powerful. I am most exceited about its
extensible plugin interface that allows adding even more features at a
fraction of cost to other editors.
Click to expand...

I just started messing around with it and so far, i'm kind of
impressed with it. I did not know there were plug-ins available. Can
you tell me where to look for these please?


The most siginificant is its sensitivity to codecs. Some of the famous
codecs (e.g. divx) makes it crash. Other is its incompatibility with MPEG2
file types. However if you are not affected by these issues then your
relationship with WMM can flourish.
Click to expand...


what happens if i try to work with MPEG2 files?

I noticed it could not import or work with Quicktime Movies. I couldnt
get Premiere elements to do that either, altho the box boasted it
could.
 
T

Tony Morgan

Griffo Fooxburr said:
So, with the above codec and converter 27th frame will be preserved?
Click to expand...
I've never encountered any frame loss (nor have any of my friends BTW),
but having said that, I (and my friends) have always used the Panasonic
DV codec.

The Panasonic codec is a well documented fix for MM's support for only
Type 1 DV.
 
R

Rehan

I am afraid but your message contains some incorrect statemnts.

I've never encountered any frame loss (nor have any of my friends BTW),
but having said that, I (and my friends) have always used the Panasonic DV
codec.
Click to expand...

How did you manage that? Do you know of any hack to pursuade Movie Maker to
use Panasonic codec?


The Panasonic codec is a well documented fix for MM's support for only
Type 1 DV.
Click to expand...

Movie Maker always uses "Microsoft DV Codec" which is a DirectShow codec.
The panasonic codec is a VFW codec and cannot be used by Movie Maker. (VFW =
Video for Windows, which is the old technology replaced by DShow six/seven
years ago.)

Therefore Panasonic DV Codec cannot be a fix for any shortcoming in Movie
Maker at all.
 

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