General question about this NG

[meg99az]

I have my first new machine with Vista and Office 2007.
They are usability disasters as far as I am concerned.
It seeems as though an awful lot of development effort went into bells and
whistles, most of it form over substance, while dismantling many of the most
important usability and productivity features.

I know that new OSes and interfaces need time to sink in, but these new
programs aren't just new - they are legitimately worse - dysfunctional for
genuine productivity, a return to the stone ages. Seems like that on the
next major OS release, we will be back to swapping floppies or using
cassette recorders to load the OS.

I hate to complain without offering up thoughtful details and suggestions.
But before I do, my question is this:

Does anyone from MS read these NG's or take them seriously? Does this all
fall on deaf ears and arrogant disregard for customers, or is there someone
at MS who takes this all seriously? If not, where else does one go to
register thoughtful feedback?

If someone is listening, I just might be a regular participant here.

---------------------

Here's something to chew on:

Remember back when - circa 1985 or thereabouts? IBM and MS were developing
a radical new GUI OS: OS/2. And, IBM had come out with its next generation
of PCs with a new incompatible bus architecture ("MCA" as I recall). In one
fell swoop, IBM ticked off its entire customer base, by creating a new
generation of machines that would force corporations to trash their entire
old investments and retrain their entire staffs. MS took care of its
customers, promising slow steady changes and backward compatibility, and the
Wintel system won by a landslide, and the mighty IBM was out. Now, with MS
concerned by Google and Linux and Apple nipping at its heels in various
ways, the Vista / Office 2007 debut reminds me of the IBM - MCA - OS/2
debacle. MS has never been a warm fuzzy patron of its customers, but this
just seems to be total disregard for how millions of people world wide use
and depend on their products. Unless Vista Service Packs fix the bugs, the
profound lack of customization options, and the Windows Explorer and Office
toolbars disasters, I will keep using XP for quite a long time. This might
be just the incentive that someone needs to develop a more robust Linux that
can support MS apps, because the sense I get is that enough people are
sufficiently upset to be wishing for a good alternative.

- meg -

 

[Steve Thackery]

Unless Vista Service Packs fix the bugs, the

profound lack of customization options, and the Windows Explorer and
Office
toolbars disasters, I will keep using XP for quite a long time.

Well, of course we can expect the service packs to fix the bugs. I'm not
sure how this contributes to the main thrust of your argument.

As for me (and pretty well every magazine reviewer I've read) I think Office
2007 is a big improvement on Office 2003 in terms of its user interface (the
overall functionality is much the same). I think the Vista interface is
much better than XP (with it appalling colour schemes, patronising and
childish sound schemes, the dreadful 'My' in front of everything, etc).

Both Office and Vista user interfaces had *extensive* tuning and tweaking in
the useability labs as well as during the betas. Microsoft almost certainly
does more useability testing than any other software supplier. That is why
I'm pretty certain you won't persuade them to change.

I'm sure I won't change your mind, but your reaction does sound like you are
simply resisting any kind of change. Unfortunately I don't know how you can
give feedback to Microsoft, but I don't think you'll have much chance of
diverting them now.

It does sound, though, like OpenOffice would be well worth looking at for
people like yourself.

Steve

 

[Guest]

the XP market had just about reached saturation point as far as microsoft and
the computer manufacturers thought to themselves. Dell's turnover had dropped
to $60 billion for the year, so they brought mick dell back to improve
things, lol.
The bottom line is Microsoft developed a new OS to generate more money,
ESPECIALLY THROUGH GAMES, and the computer manufacturers are rubbing their
hands together as microsoft made 90% of the world's computers incapaple of
running Vista(except for the basic version), unless the hardware is heavily
modified and updated.
IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY MEG

Mick in Australia

 

[Rick Rogers]

Hi Meg,

The point of these newsgroups is peer support. Help here comes from other
users, not Microsoft. Microsoft merely supplies the means for this support.
While some Microsoft personnel occasional read and respond to posts, that is
not the norm, nor should anyone rely on it. If thier help is desired, one
should use the offical support lines. Suggestions, complaints, and things of
that nature have other channels here:
http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/Facts.aspx?displaylang=en

If you want to learn from others, or have tips, tricks, techniques, or
knowledge and a willingness to help others, I would encourage you to hang
out and participate. No one is an expert at everything, but virtually
everyone knows something they can share to help others.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

I have my first new machine with Vista and Office 2007.
They are usability disasters as far as I am concerned.
It seeems as though an awful lot of development effort went into bells and
whistles, most of it form over substance, while dismantling many of the
most
important usability and productivity features.

I know that new OSes and interfaces need time to sink in, but these new
programs aren't just new - they are legitimately worse - dysfunctional for
genuine productivity, a return to the stone ages. Seems like that on the
next major OS release, we will be back to swapping floppies or using
cassette recorders to load the OS.

I hate to complain without offering up thoughtful details and suggestions.
But before I do, my question is this:

Does anyone from MS read these NG's or take them seriously? Does this all
fall on deaf ears and arrogant disregard for customers, or is there
someone
at MS who takes this all seriously? If not, where else does one go to
register thoughtful feedback?

If someone is listening, I just might be a regular participant here.

---------------------

Here's something to chew on:

Remember back when - circa 1985 or thereabouts? IBM and MS were
developing
a radical new GUI OS: OS/2. And, IBM had come out with its next
generation
of PCs with a new incompatible bus architecture ("MCA" as I recall). In
one
fell swoop, IBM ticked off its entire customer base, by creating a new
generation of machines that would force corporations to trash their entire
old investments and retrain their entire staffs. MS took care of its
customers, promising slow steady changes and backward compatibility, and
the
Wintel system won by a landslide, and the mighty IBM was out. Now, with
MS
concerned by Google and Linux and Apple nipping at its heels in various
ways, the Vista / Office 2007 debut reminds me of the IBM - MCA - OS/2
debacle. MS has never been a warm fuzzy patron of its customers, but this
just seems to be total disregard for how millions of people world wide use
and depend on their products. Unless Vista Service Packs fix the bugs,
the
profound lack of customization options, and the Windows Explorer and
Office
toolbars disasters, I will keep using XP for quite a long time. This
might
be just the incentive that someone needs to develop a more robust Linux
that
can support MS apps, because the sense I get is that enough people are
sufficiently upset to be wishing for a good alternative.

- meg -

 

[Guest]

They run stats packages over it. Product managers monitor it as well. Betcha
you wish you had Word 2000. The last one that mostly worked. In a company
the size of MS the only feedback they can rely on is stats.

Aren't you looking forward to office 2007 - if you become an expert on it
you won't be able to use any other program. Macs provided a consistant user
interface. Mac users used many more programs than Dos users (take me. I used
a word processor that I also used as a spreadsheet and database, but it was
a word processor not a database or spreadsheet so it did database and
spreadsheets poorly - but I didn't have to spend 10000 hours learning to be
an expert in Lotus 123 and DBase III).

I have my first new machine with Vista and Office 2007.
They are usability disasters as far as I am concerned.
It seeems as though an awful lot of development effort went into bells and
whistles, most of it form over substance, while dismantling many of the
most
important usability and productivity features.

I know that new OSes and interfaces need time to sink in, but these new
programs aren't just new - they are legitimately worse - dysfunctional for
genuine productivity, a return to the stone ages. Seems like that on the
next major OS release, we will be back to swapping floppies or using
cassette recorders to load the OS.

I hate to complain without offering up thoughtful details and suggestions.
But before I do, my question is this:

Does anyone from MS read these NG's or take them seriously? Does this all
fall on deaf ears and arrogant disregard for customers, or is there
someone
at MS who takes this all seriously? If not, where else does one go to
register thoughtful feedback?

If someone is listening, I just might be a regular participant here.

---------------------

Here's something to chew on:

Remember back when - circa 1985 or thereabouts? IBM and MS were
developing
a radical new GUI OS: OS/2. And, IBM had come out with its next
generation
of PCs with a new incompatible bus architecture ("MCA" as I recall). In
one
fell swoop, IBM ticked off its entire customer base, by creating a new
generation of machines that would force corporations to trash their entire
old investments and retrain their entire staffs. MS took care of its
customers, promising slow steady changes and backward compatibility, and
the
Wintel system won by a landslide, and the mighty IBM was out. Now, with
MS
concerned by Google and Linux and Apple nipping at its heels in various
ways, the Vista / Office 2007 debut reminds me of the IBM - MCA - OS/2
debacle. MS has never been a warm fuzzy patron of its customers, but this
just seems to be total disregard for how millions of people world wide use
and depend on their products. Unless Vista Service Packs fix the bugs,
the
profound lack of customization options, and the Windows Explorer and
Office
toolbars disasters, I will keep using XP for quite a long time. This
might
be just the incentive that someone needs to develop a more robust Linux
that
can support MS apps, because the sense I get is that enough people are
sufficiently upset to be wishing for a good alternative.

- meg -

 

[Mark]

I've encountered three types of viewers in this set of newsgroups:

General public, most of which have little or no concern for how they treat
others, with the rare individual who attempts to rise above the fray and
actually help. This group of people seldom distinguish their problems to the
rightful owners, choosing instead to blame any and all.

MVPs, a slight improvement over the general public, they volunteer their
help and seem to have more experience at finding what is already out there
regarding your problems and rarely offer anything beyond that knowing that
their suggestions rarely fit all cases. Like the general public, this group
quickly becomes base if confronted.

Microsoft. Yep, they are there and I've only encountered two of them, but
they remain quiet until the problem you have is definitely known to reside
within the Microsoft code. At this point, those individuals go all out to
contact you and work with you to determine and fix an actual bug. They value
their job, just as you, and retain their opinions of you to themselves while
fixing your problem.

So, does anyone who can make an actual change to the product hear what is
said in these newsgroups? Yes.
Where do I fit... General Public. I've attacked others needlessly and
attempted to help. But, when I encountered actual MS employees who went out
of their way to help and found them to value their work, as I do mine, I
suddenly felt chagrined over some of my prior posts. I'm here to help, if I
can. Flame away, if necessary... I'll just wait in the wings until I'm able
to help.

I have my first new machine with Vista and Office 2007.
They are usability disasters as far as I am concerned.
It seeems as though an awful lot of development effort went into bells and
whistles, most of it form over substance, while dismantling many of the
most
important usability and productivity features.

I know that new OSes and interfaces need time to sink in, but these new
programs aren't just new - they are legitimately worse - dysfunctional for
genuine productivity, a return to the stone ages. Seems like that on the
next major OS release, we will be back to swapping floppies or using
cassette recorders to load the OS.

I hate to complain without offering up thoughtful details and suggestions.
But before I do, my question is this:

Does anyone from MS read these NG's or take them seriously? Does this all
fall on deaf ears and arrogant disregard for customers, or is there
someone
at MS who takes this all seriously? If not, where else does one go to
register thoughtful feedback?

If someone is listening, I just might be a regular participant here.

---------------------

Here's something to chew on:

Remember back when - circa 1985 or thereabouts? IBM and MS were
developing
a radical new GUI OS: OS/2. And, IBM had come out with its next
generation
of PCs with a new incompatible bus architecture ("MCA" as I recall). In
one
fell swoop, IBM ticked off its entire customer base, by creating a new
generation of machines that would force corporations to trash their entire
old investments and retrain their entire staffs. MS took care of its
customers, promising slow steady changes and backward compatibility, and
the
Wintel system won by a landslide, and the mighty IBM was out. Now, with
MS
concerned by Google and Linux and Apple nipping at its heels in various
ways, the Vista / Office 2007 debut reminds me of the IBM - MCA - OS/2
debacle. MS has never been a warm fuzzy patron of its customers, but this
just seems to be total disregard for how millions of people world wide use
and depend on their products. Unless Vista Service Packs fix the bugs,
the
profound lack of customization options, and the Windows Explorer and
Office
toolbars disasters, I will keep using XP for quite a long time. This
might
be just the incentive that someone needs to develop a more robust Linux
that
can support MS apps, because the sense I get is that enough people are
sufficiently upset to be wishing for a good alternative.

- meg -

 

[Guest]

Im not sure why, but most of the folk who support Vista talk about the
improvement in color scheme and appearance.

I rarely see pro Vista comments stating that it is easier for administrators
to manage and troubleshoot, or that there are all types of new tools and
features, or that they never feel alone when UAC is always there to pop up
and ask them if they really really really want to do something. I am
honestly impressed with how stable Office 07 seems to be but the drastic
change in interface seems to have no real justification. The marketing tells
how commands are now organized in logical groups and easy to find. The menu
design was (for the most part) logical grouping, and dont let them fool you
into thinking that no thought went into the design of 2000 or xp. They make
it sound like they FINALLY studied how users use the software. I would love
to see that study. As an experienced software trainer, I would expect they
looked at how new users find commands in a program. The process is very
different for a user finding a command for the first time versus using a
command over and over with a combination of other commands in their daily
workflow. The new interface can force experienced users to spend more time
coordinating features and cost productivity. Change is not always bad but if
it aint broke, dont fix it. We need to remember that the normal office
worker does not share our high level of excitement at using a new computer
program. They want to go to work, do their job, and go home to enjoy their
lives. In My opinion, they shouldnt be forced to spend time learning new
ways of doing their work just because MS decides they need to increase sales.
Imagine how you would feel if you were forced to learn a new way of
operating your car because Ford and GM decided to make old cars obsolete. Or
what if MS released their next version to only work with Davorak keyboards
and you had to learn a new way to type? Change is not always something that
is needed. MS has really pushed it with these products and I think they are
going to survive it, but it wouldnt suprise me if we see a feature over the
next year that allows you to run a version of office with the old menu
interface. Heck, you can still change the vista start menu to "classic"
style.


Oh ! happy Friday everyone!

 

[Guest]

I am very pleased with Vista and MS Office 2007.
Sure they are different and you must take the time to learn them.
Dont forget what a change XP was from previous OS's by MS.
Personally almost all of the software I use benefits positively from Vista.
Vista has really stepped up the performance of multi core cpu's
and I see that benefit immediately. I would never switch back to XP, I am
a Vista addict. I have noticed some issues with Vista and I am compiling
a list. I remember all the issues I had with XP and legacy software, and
this time around I am actually having less trouble with legacy software
with Vista than I did with XP. I have Vista on two pc's here and they run
an average of a week without a reboot or restart. They only get restarted
because I am a creature of habit. I have experienced one crash with Vista
and have never had the BSOD (blue screen of death). I would caution
all uses to make sure you can find the drivers for your hardware before
you even consider using Vista. I would highly and strongly recommend
2 gigs of ram and a dual core cpu. Vista is intended to be used
on newer hardware, just as XP was when it came out. My only real
complaint concerns the hardware vendors, not releasing drivers
in a timely manner. Vista beta was around for a LONG time before
Vista was released, and in my opinion there is not much excuse
for hardware vendors who were late or have not released Vista
drivers for their products. Office 2007 rocks I would recommend
it to anyone. You will have to take the time to learn it as the interface
has completely changed. However, the interface is easier to use and
more efficient once you become accomodated to it. I as all the others
in this NG will provide help as I can.
G

I have my first new machine with Vista and Office 2007.
They are usability disasters as far as I am concerned.
It seeems as though an awful lot of development effort went into bells and
whistles, most of it form over substance, while dismantling many of the
most
important usability and productivity features.

I know that new OSes and interfaces need time to sink in, but these new
programs aren't just new - they are legitimately worse - dysfunctional for
genuine productivity, a return to the stone ages. Seems like that on the
next major OS release, we will be back to swapping floppies or using
cassette recorders to load the OS.

I hate to complain without offering up thoughtful details and suggestions.
But before I do, my question is this:

Does anyone from MS read these NG's or take them seriously? Does this all
fall on deaf ears and arrogant disregard for customers, or is there
someone
at MS who takes this all seriously? If not, where else does one go to
register thoughtful feedback?

If someone is listening, I just might be a regular participant here.

---------------------

Here's something to chew on:

Remember back when - circa 1985 or thereabouts? IBM and MS were
developing
a radical new GUI OS: OS/2. And, IBM had come out with its next
generation
of PCs with a new incompatible bus architecture ("MCA" as I recall). In
one
fell swoop, IBM ticked off its entire customer base, by creating a new
generation of machines that would force corporations to trash their entire
old investments and retrain their entire staffs. MS took care of its
customers, promising slow steady changes and backward compatibility, and
the
Wintel system won by a landslide, and the mighty IBM was out. Now, with
MS
concerned by Google and Linux and Apple nipping at its heels in various
ways, the Vista / Office 2007 debut reminds me of the IBM - MCA - OS/2
debacle. MS has never been a warm fuzzy patron of its customers, but this
just seems to be total disregard for how millions of people world wide use
and depend on their products. Unless Vista Service Packs fix the bugs,
the
profound lack of customization options, and the Windows Explorer and
Office
toolbars disasters, I will keep using XP for quite a long time. This
might
be just the incentive that someone needs to develop a more robust Linux
that
can support MS apps, because the sense I get is that enough people are
sufficiently upset to be wishing for a good alternative.

- meg -

 

[john]

I have my first new machine with Vista and Office 2007.
They are usability disasters as far as I am concerned.
It seeems as though an awful lot of development effort went into bells and
whistles, most of it form over substance, while dismantling many of the
most
important usability and productivity features.

I know that new OSes and interfaces need time to sink in, but these new
programs aren't just new - they are legitimately worse - dysfunctional for
genuine productivity, a return to the stone ages. Seems like that on the
next major OS release, we will be back to swapping floppies or using
cassette recorders to load the OS.

I hate to complain without offering up thoughtful details and suggestions.
But before I do, my question is this:

Does anyone from MS read these NG's or take them seriously? Does this all
fall on deaf ears and arrogant disregard for customers, or is there
someone
at MS who takes this all seriously? If not, where else does one go to
register thoughtful feedback?

If someone is listening, I just might be a regular participant here.

Well according to Bill Gates himself:

"Since when has the world of computer software design been about what
people want?"
- Bill Gates

"If you can't make it good, at least make it look good."
- Bill Gates