FTP & FrontPage Extensions

  • Thread starter Thread starter JCO
  • Start date Start date
J

JCO

As most know, you should not use FTP and FrontPage Extensions at the same
time. The reason is... When you FTP, you could (and most likely) corrupt
the extensions. At that point, the extensions have to be removed and
reinstalled. Also, it corrupts all FrontPage Extensions on the entire
server causing the host company to fix the problem.

Today, talking to my hosting company, I was told that you can FTP... you
just can't use the FTP that is part of FrontPage. This means you can use
WS_FTP... a popular program that I'm sure many of you use for FTP'ing files
to the server.

My question, to anyone out their, ... is this the way you understand the
issue?
Has anybody discussed the details with their hosting company to determine
that it is only FrontPage's FTP that can't be used or any 3rd Party FTP
Program.

I realize that I may have talked to someone, at my hosting company, that MAY
be wrong.
Just wondering if anyone else knows for sure?

Purpose: My hosting company seems to have issues with subwebs. They said I
can use subwebs if I FTP stuff to it instead of using FrontPage. That got
the discussion going.

Thanks (sorry so long)!
 
They are wrong

A FP Server Extension extended site (especially a root web) should never be FTP'd to (by any FTP client or tool)
The SE manage the site and FTP bypasses the updating of the meta files needed for the SE to function and control the site - thus
corrupts the site
- certain non managed files (like media files) are OK to FTP to a subweb (as long as the subweb is not reopened in FP in case it is
corrupted)

--




| As most know, you should not use FTP and FrontPage Extensions at the same
| time. The reason is... When you FTP, you could (and most likely) corrupt
| the extensions. At that point, the extensions have to be removed and
| reinstalled. Also, it corrupts all FrontPage Extensions on the entire
| server causing the host company to fix the problem.
|
| Today, talking to my hosting company, I was told that you can FTP... you
| just can't use the FTP that is part of FrontPage. This means you can use
| WS_FTP... a popular program that I'm sure many of you use for FTP'ing files
| to the server.
|
| My question, to anyone out their, ... is this the way you understand the
| issue?
| Has anybody discussed the details with their hosting company to determine
| that it is only FrontPage's FTP that can't be used or any 3rd Party FTP
| Program.
|
| I realize that I may have talked to someone, at my hosting company, that MAY
| be wrong.
| Just wondering if anyone else knows for sure?
|
| Purpose: My hosting company seems to have issues with subwebs. They said I
| can use subwebs if I FTP stuff to it instead of using FrontPage. That got
| the discussion going.
|
| Thanks (sorry so long)!
|
|
|
|
 
JCO,

Your host has a incorrect understanding...

FP will not switch to FTP mode if the extensions are present on the remote server. If FP is forced
into publishing via FTP mode, then just as with using a 3rd Party FTP application the extensions
will be corrupted.

No FTP application should be use to upload/delete content that is or will be managed by the FP
extensions. Basically if you do not understand how the FP extensions truly work, then don't use FTP.

3rd Party FTP application can be used to upload content to a subweb, where the content is images
called by server-side scripting application, PDF, Zip, Doc files that are being provided for
downloading by site visitors, since these items do not need to be managed by the FP extensions,
however it does require the manual maintaining of any hyperlinks to them from other parts of the FP
web.


--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
Thanks, both of you, for your response!

I tend to believe the two of you more than my hosting company. This is what
I thought.
Thanks again.
 
Stefan;
Also, it corrupts all FrontPage Extensions on the entire
Click to expand...
server causing the host company to fix the problem

That's not true either...is it? That would be rather messy if it were true.

Rob

| They are wrong
|
| A FP Server Extension extended site (especially a root web) should never be FTP'd to (by any FTP client or tool)
| The SE manage the site and FTP bypasses the updating of the meta files needed for the SE to function and control the site - thus
| corrupts the site
| - certain non managed files (like media files) are OK to FTP to a subweb (as long as the subweb is not reopened in FP in case it is
| corrupted)
|
| --
|
| _____________________________________________
| SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| _____________________________________________
|
|
| | As most know, you should not use FTP and FrontPage Extensions at the same
| | time. The reason is... When you FTP, you could (and most likely) corrupt
| | the extensions. At that point, the extensions have to be removed and
| | reinstalled. Also, it corrupts all FrontPage Extensions on the entire
| | server causing the host company to fix the problem.
| |
| | Today, talking to my hosting company, I was told that you can FTP... you
| | just can't use the FTP that is part of FrontPage. This means you can use
| | WS_FTP... a popular program that I'm sure many of you use for FTP'ing files
| | to the server.
| |
| | My question, to anyone out their, ... is this the way you understand the
| | issue?
| | Has anybody discussed the details with their hosting company to determine
| | that it is only FrontPage's FTP that can't be used or any 3rd Party FTP
| | Program.
| |
| | I realize that I may have talked to someone, at my hosting company, that MAY
| | be wrong.
| | Just wondering if anyone else knows for sure?
| |
| | Purpose: My hosting company seems to have issues with subwebs. They said I
| | can use subwebs if I FTP stuff to it instead of using FrontPage. That got
| | the discussion going.
| |
| | Thanks (sorry so long)!
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
 
In some limited situations you can "get away" with this,
but not as a general purpose solution.

When you publish via HTTP to a FrontPage extended Web, a
lot goes on under the hood. Suppose, for example, you have
a page named sig.htm, and it contains your standard
signature line. Dozens or hundreds of pages in your site
use the Include Page component to display this sig line.

Now, you change the sig.htm page and publish. FrontPage
uploads the sig.htm file, and then tells the server
extensions to update all the pages that use it. It
*doesn't* upload all those pages!

Suppose instead that you FTP'ed the changed sig.htm file.
The server extensions never received they new file, so
they don't update all the "using" pages. You could solve
this by FTPing new versions of all the pages from your
local site, but how would you know exactly which files
were affected? In all probability, you'll miss some, and
find yourself posting here because your Web site is
mysteriously broken.

Or, suppose you FTPed a new page that included the
existing sig.htm, and then you published a new sig.htm
using the server extensions. Because the server extensions
never received and examined the new page you FTPed, they
wouldn't realize it included sig.htm. So, when it came
time to replace all included copies of sig.htm, the server
extensions would "miss" the page you FTPed.

The same sorts of issues arise with hyperlinks you change
throughout a site, with thumbnails and other images
FrontPage creates on your behalf, with script files that
FrontPage adds to your Web when you use certain
components, and with many other kinds of changes.
FrontPage knows which files it needs to upload, but you
don't and neither does your FTP program. Bye bye happiness
and hello heartbreak.

FTP *may* be useful in cases such as:

o Once an hour, uploading a text file that contains your
hot tub temperature. (An ASP or ASP.NET page would
open this page and display the contents.)

o Uploading a picture from a Web cam every five minutes
(Assuming the picture always has the same name and the
same size).

o Downloading a backup copy of a database once a day.

To do these things, you'd typically set up a timed task on
another computer (such as your PC) and make it run a
command-line FTP program. But note that in each case,
there's no change in relationship between the uploaded
file and any other files in the same site.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------
 
Depends how poorly the host set up the server

--




Also, it corrupts all FrontPage Extensions on the entire
Click to expand...
server causing the host company to fix the problem

That's not true either...is it? That would be rather messy if it were true.

Rob

| They are wrong
|
| A FP Server Extension extended site (especially a root web) should never be FTP'd to (by any FTP client or tool)
| The SE manage the site and FTP bypasses the updating of the meta files needed for the SE to function and control the site - thus
| corrupts the site
| - certain non managed files (like media files) are OK to FTP to a subweb (as long as the subweb is not reopened in FP in case it
is
| corrupted)
|
| --
|
| _____________________________________________
| SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| _____________________________________________
|
|
| | As most know, you should not use FTP and FrontPage Extensions at the same
| | time. The reason is... When you FTP, you could (and most likely) corrupt
| | the extensions. At that point, the extensions have to be removed and
| | reinstalled. Also, it corrupts all FrontPage Extensions on the entire
| | server causing the host company to fix the problem.
| |
| | Today, talking to my hosting company, I was told that you can FTP... you
| | just can't use the FTP that is part of FrontPage. This means you can use
| | WS_FTP... a popular program that I'm sure many of you use for FTP'ing files
| | to the server.
| |
| | My question, to anyone out their, ... is this the way you understand the
| | issue?
| | Has anybody discussed the details with their hosting company to determine
| | that it is only FrontPage's FTP that can't be used or any 3rd Party FTP
| | Program.
| |
| | I realize that I may have talked to someone, at my hosting company, that MAY
| | be wrong.
| | Just wondering if anyone else knows for sure?
| |
| | Purpose: My hosting company seems to have issues with subwebs. They said I
| | can use subwebs if I FTP stuff to it instead of using FrontPage. That got
| | the discussion going.
| |
| | Thanks (sorry so long)!
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
 
JCO said:
As most know, you should not use FTP and FrontPage Extensions at the same
time. The reason is... When you FTP, you could (and most likely) corrupt
the extensions. At that point, the extensions have to be removed and
reinstalled. Also, it corrupts all FrontPage Extensions on the entire
server causing the host company to fix the problem.

Today, talking to my hosting company, I was told that you can FTP... you
just can't use the FTP that is part of FrontPage. This means you can use
WS_FTP... a popular program that I'm sure many of you use for FTP'ing files
to the server.
Click to expand...

You should test it on their server.

They'll find out soon enough how wrong they are.
 
JCO said:
Thanks, both of you, for your response!

I tend to believe the two of you more than my hosting company. This is what
I thought.
Thanks again.
Click to expand...

If you need some sort of dual access, you could set up a virtual folder
(which FP won't see) and FTP into that.

It sort of depends on why you are wanting to use FTP in the first place.
 
ah that brought tears to my eyes...finally a clear explanation of extensions.
bravo :-)


| In some limited situations you can "get away" with this,
| but not as a general purpose solution.
|
| When you publish via HTTP to a FrontPage extended Web, a
| lot goes on under the hood. Suppose, for example, you have
| a page named sig.htm, and it contains your standard
| signature line. Dozens or hundreds of pages in your site
| use the Include Page component to display this sig line.
|
| Now, you change the sig.htm page and publish. FrontPage
| uploads the sig.htm file, and then tells the server
| extensions to update all the pages that use it. It
| *doesn't* upload all those pages!
|
| Suppose instead that you FTP'ed the changed sig.htm file.
| The server extensions never received they new file, so
| they don't update all the "using" pages. You could solve
| this by FTPing new versions of all the pages from your
| local site, but how would you know exactly which files
| were affected? In all probability, you'll miss some, and
| find yourself posting here because your Web site is
| mysteriously broken.
|
| Or, suppose you FTPed a new page that included the
| existing sig.htm, and then you published a new sig.htm
| using the server extensions. Because the server extensions
| never received and examined the new page you FTPed, they
| wouldn't realize it included sig.htm. So, when it came
| time to replace all included copies of sig.htm, the server
| extensions would "miss" the page you FTPed.
|
| The same sorts of issues arise with hyperlinks you change
| throughout a site, with thumbnails and other images
| FrontPage creates on your behalf, with script files that
| FrontPage adds to your Web when you use certain
| components, and with many other kinds of changes.
| FrontPage knows which files it needs to upload, but you
| don't and neither does your FTP program. Bye bye happiness
| and hello heartbreak.
|
| FTP *may* be useful in cases such as:
|
| o Once an hour, uploading a text file that contains your
| hot tub temperature. (An ASP or ASP.NET page would
| open this page and display the contents.)
|
| o Uploading a picture from a Web cam every five minutes
| (Assuming the picture always has the same name and the
| same size).
|
| o Downloading a backup copy of a database once a day.
|
| To do these things, you'd typically set up a timed task on
| another computer (such as your PC) and make it run a
| command-line FTP program. But note that in each case,
| there's no change in relationship between the uploaded
| file and any other files in the same site.
|
| Jim Buyens
| Microsoft FrontPage MVP
| http://www.interlacken.com
| Author of:
| *----------------------------------------------------
| |\---------------------------------------------------
| || Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
| ||---------------------------------------------------
| || Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
| || Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
| || Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
| || (All from Microsoft Press)
| |/---------------------------------------------------
| *----------------------------------------------------
|
|
| >-----Original Message-----
| >As most know, you should not use FTP and FrontPage
| Extensions at the same
| >time. The reason is... When you FTP, you could (and most
| likely) corrupt
| >the extensions. At that point, the extensions have to be
| removed and
| >reinstalled. Also, it corrupts all FrontPage Extensions
| on the entire
| >server causing the host company to fix the problem.
| >
| >Today, talking to my hosting company, I was told that you
| can FTP... you
| >just can't use the FTP that is part of FrontPage. This
| means you can use
| >WS_FTP... a popular program that I'm sure many of you use
| for FTP'ing files
| >to the server.
| >
| >My question, to anyone out their, ... is this the way you
| understand the
| >issue?
| >Has anybody discussed the details with their hosting
| company to determine
| >that it is only FrontPage's FTP that can't be used or any
| 3rd Party FTP
| >Program.
| >
| >I realize that I may have talked to someone, at my
| hosting company, that MAY
| >be wrong.
| >Just wondering if anyone else knows for sure?
| >
| >Purpose: My hosting company seems to have issues with
| subwebs. They said I
| >can use subwebs if I FTP stuff to it instead of using
| FrontPage. That got
| >the discussion going.
| >
| >Thanks (sorry so long)!
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >.
| >
 
I FTP to My server with CuteFTP and FTP Voyager. My server has Front Page
extensions, but he has never complained that I am causing him any trouble.
He is a personal friend, so if there was any problem, he would tell me.

It's true, though, that when you FTP, then pages on your site that contain
includes will not get updated. I do use includes, but my philosophy is that
when I change an included page, all subsequent uploads will have the update,
and the old pages will stay the way they are.

Wally S
 
If you are always using FTP, then why even have the FP extensions applied to your site?

FTPing to a server with the extensions, doesn't effect the server, nor the web site when view in a
browser, however if you later attempt to either open or publish to the site with FP, then you will
see problems.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
It is basically so other people can send me files.
I'm getting around this by using a free server area that is designed for
hosting web sites free. I have a "construction page" displayed. I actually
have Extensions removed and only ftp to this site. When customers tell me
the files are there, I remove from that server to my local computer... then
to my actual web server for publishing. A bit decetful but it's the only
way I can get files back and forth.

IM's can work for sending files and so can Peer to Peer sharing utilities.
I've found the the WS_FTP is best because you can configure it once and it
is set.

Thanks
 
Great Insight!

Jim Buyens said:
In some limited situations you can "get away" with this,
but not as a general purpose solution.

When you publish via HTTP to a FrontPage extended Web, a
lot goes on under the hood. Suppose, for example, you have
a page named sig.htm, and it contains your standard
signature line. Dozens or hundreds of pages in your site
use the Include Page component to display this sig line.

Now, you change the sig.htm page and publish. FrontPage
uploads the sig.htm file, and then tells the server
extensions to update all the pages that use it. It
*doesn't* upload all those pages!

Suppose instead that you FTP'ed the changed sig.htm file.
The server extensions never received they new file, so
they don't update all the "using" pages. You could solve
this by FTPing new versions of all the pages from your
local site, but how would you know exactly which files
were affected? In all probability, you'll miss some, and
find yourself posting here because your Web site is
mysteriously broken.

Or, suppose you FTPed a new page that included the
existing sig.htm, and then you published a new sig.htm
using the server extensions. Because the server extensions
never received and examined the new page you FTPed, they
wouldn't realize it included sig.htm. So, when it came
time to replace all included copies of sig.htm, the server
extensions would "miss" the page you FTPed.

The same sorts of issues arise with hyperlinks you change
throughout a site, with thumbnails and other images
FrontPage creates on your behalf, with script files that
FrontPage adds to your Web when you use certain
components, and with many other kinds of changes.
FrontPage knows which files it needs to upload, but you
don't and neither does your FTP program. Bye bye happiness
and hello heartbreak.

FTP *may* be useful in cases such as:

o Once an hour, uploading a text file that contains your
hot tub temperature. (An ASP or ASP.NET page would
open this page and display the contents.)

o Uploading a picture from a Web cam every five minutes
(Assuming the picture always has the same name and the
same size).

o Downloading a backup copy of a database once a day.

To do these things, you'd typically set up a timed task on
another computer (such as your PC) and make it run a
command-line FTP program. But note that in each case,
there's no change in relationship between the uploaded
file and any other files in the same site.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
 
I never asked for the FP extensions. I did not know it was a site-by-site
thing. I thought it was a computer-by-computer thing at the server. I
originally started working with this server when I took over a site, and the
person I took it over from told me to FTP the pages over. That site is now
gone, and I have since opened a new site with the same server. The last time
I saw him, he mentioned that he had FP extensions, but I told him I did not
need them.

It is true that if I try to go on the site directly with FP, it messes up my
home page, but I never need to do that. Any changes that have to be made, I
make them on my own computer and FTP the pages over. I don't use frames,
shared borders, or forms, but these things could be done without FP
extensions anyway. Using categories for a site map works, but I have
abandoned that because it is more trouble than it is worth.

Wally S
 
I also do not use Themes, Shared Borders, Navigation Components or any of the new features of FP2002
or FP2003, actually I still use FP2000 for all development.

However IMO, the best feature of any version of FP has/is it site management functions that allow
you to work directly on the remote site when needing to make a quick change, or working together
with a clients or another developer and then having the ability to update a local copy with any
changes made online. FTP doesn't allow for that type of management.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
True, but in my case, I don't work with clients or other developers. When I
first started, way back in '98, I tried working with another developer, but
we always wound up overwriting each other's work. At that time, I was using
FP 98 and a server that had FP extensions, and it was convenient to drag new
pages over from my computer to the server with the import command. When I
started working with my present server, I thought he did not have FP
extensions, although it turns out that he does.

My experience is that working directly on the site is a slow and agonizing
process. For a quick fix, it's almost as fast, maybe faster, to make the
change on my own computer and FTP the page over. And then I'm automatically
in sync.

Also, my site is a news site for a religious organization, so I am
constantly adding new pages and changing things, and it's easier to FTP a
couple of pages over than to publish a couple of pages. Even if you publish
changed pages only, FP will go through the entire site to see which pages
have been changed.

I am not arguing in favor of one or the other because different people have
different needs, and I appreciate your input.

Wally S

Thomas A. Rowe said:
I also do not use Themes, Shared Borders, Navigation Components or any of the new features of FP2002
or FP2003, actually I still use FP2000 for all development.

However IMO, the best feature of any version of FP has/is it site
Click to expand...
management functions that allow
 

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