First post: Help with pro-sumer homebuilt desktop upgrade

[John Weiss]

[2 posts combined]

The reason I've been bent on a 64-bit system, is that I wanted to get
above 4GB RAM. The 2GB / Dual Core system I have now is painfully
slow in my work, and I don't think doubling the ram and proc. to 4GB /
Quad is going to be enough.

How much RAM and Virtual Memory is Photoshop using in your current system
(Task Manager will tell you)?

Why do you think 4 GB will not be enough? Consider that the OS and
background apps (firewall, antivirus...) can easily use 500 MB, leaving 1.5
GB for Photoshop on the current system. With 4 GB and 32-bit Win, the /3GB
switch in Win will give you at least 1 GB MORE RAM available to Photoshop!
Again, how much do you think you need, and WHY?!?

Only YOU can research the compatibility of all your hardware and apps with
64-bit Win. The general advice is to NOT do it for an all-purpose home
machine, but do what you need for your dedicated Photoshop machine...

QUESTIONS:
Can anyone give me a good reason to go for Vista Business over Home
Premium?

I can't even give you a good reason to go Vista at all!

Will an additional Rapter really affect the overall speed of the
computer enough to justify $200+?

It all depends on how much raw speed is important to you, and how you
measure that speed. In some cases speed increases will only be measurable
by a benchmark app, and will not be perceptible to you. In other cases,
benchmarks may not show significant overall gains, but some part of the
system (especially if it is a bottleneck) gains enough to make a real,
perceptible difference.

With current systems, disk I/O is often the bottleneck for computer-based
apps (network bandwidth is obviously a limiting factor in Internet- or
server-based apps. If the app requires significant disk I/O, HD access
speed is VERY important. In your case, you want a separate physical HD for
the primary Photoshop scratch disk, so it can access that HD independently
from the OS, app DLLs, and data I/O. Since budget IS a consideration, we
can't suggest a RAID 10 (minimum 4 HDs) option, so the fastest 2-HD option
should be a primary consideration.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300, LGA 775, 2.5GHz, 64-Bit Quad-Core, 6MB Cache;
1333MHz
Intel factory Auto-RPM Silent CPU Air Cool
Asus nForce 650i SLI, 8GB Max, SLI, RAID,1394, S/PDIF, Audio, GbLAN.
[ P5N-E SLI ]
8G (4x2GB) PC6400 DDR2/800

Without the immediate need for SLI, is an X38 or X48 chipset an option?
They support faster FSB and RAM speeds, and there are several (e.g.,
Gigabyte X38-DS4) that use DDR2 RAM so you don't have to pay for DDR3.

The extra performance will likely cost a bit more (faster RAM), so it's a
trade you'll have to consider.

108Mbps: Zonet ZEW1620, 802.11b/g PCI Internal Wireless Adapter

NO! A proprietary "108 Mbps" 802.1G adapter will get you nowhere near 108
Mbps! A current 802.1N draft compatible network setup is what you need for
performance and upgradability on a "performance" machine!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124069 is a
Linksys example; use your favorite mainstream mfgr, so you can be assured
of firmware upgrades to final 802.1N spec when it is ratified.

Windows Vista Home Premium - 64 Bit Edition - w/ DVD set

32-bit XP Pro is still my advice...

 

[Fishface]

Based on the suggestions of everyone here, I have
come up with this $1,337 system - I'd appreciate someone "signing off"
on this config before I hit the checkout button.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300, LGA 775, 2.5GHz, 64-Bit Quad-Core, 6MB Cache;
1333MHz

Try to get a Q9450 instead. There's a reason they're in short supply.

Intel factory Auto-RPM Silent CPU Air Cool

Not all that quiet in my experience. Speed up, slow down, speed up...
Well, that may be the fault of the motherboard manufacturer designing
a very tight loop into the PWM circuit, so it could vary by brand, but I
have found that a nice 92 mm aftermarket cooler running at constant
speed is less annoying.

8G (4x2GB) PC6400 DDR2/800

Just make sure to install the OS with just 2GB, and install all patches,
reboot, and then install the other memory.

Geforce 8600GT: 512MB
320GB SATA-II 7200RPM w/16MB Buffer
Western Digital Rapter 150GB SATA 10000RPM w/ 16MB Buffer

You're giving photoshop a dedicated fast scratch disk, right? I don't
know if there is a good RAM disk available for Vista 64, but I have heard
that some people put their scratch disk on a RAM disk. Maybe check
this one out:

www.ramdisk.tk

MSI TV@nywhere Plus, TV Tuner, w/Remote Control

Did you check to see if it has a Vista 64 bit driver? I don't think so!

Integrated onBoard 10/100/(1000) Port(s)
108Mbps: Zonet ZEW1620, 802.11b/g PCI Internal Wireless Adapter

This is listed under discontinued products. Did you check to see if it has
a Vista 64 bit driver? I don't think so!

URL Link :
http://www.pcusa.com/shopKitConfig....,7,4,0,0,3,9,0,0,2,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,10,0,5,0,0,0,

Did you check this place out on www.resellerratings.com?

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/PC_USA_dba_PC_Source

I think I would get it somewhere else. That place scares me!

 

[Fishface]

A nice 22" monitor would be nice to go alongside my tablet monitor -
any suggestions?

I bought an LG 22" monitor with TN panel. Hated it. I am much happier with
my 24" with P-MVA panel. It's a Soyo, on special at OfficeMax for only $300,
but unfortunately I have heard they switched to TN panels. The box for
the TN says 3ms. The box for the P-MVA said 6ms.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2158810

Don't get a TN panel, especially for Photoshop.

 

[John Weiss]

A nice 22" monitor would be nice to go alongside my tablet monitor -
any suggestions?

I've been very happy with my Samsung 193P and 244T. Make sure you go for
the higher-end series, not the cheaper (and much more often advertised)
versions; viewing angle and contrast are way different. They have recently
changed the model designations so I don't know what replaced the P and T
series (2280HD or 225UW?) .

 

[Fishface]

I've been very happy with my Samsung 193P and 244T.

From: http://www.flatpanels.dk/panels.php :

Samsung 193P has a 19 inch 25 ms PVA (Samsung LTM190E4) eller et 20 Ms PVA (LTM190E4-L02) panel.

Samsung 193P+ has a 19 inch 8 ms (g2g) PVA (Samsung LTM190E4-L02) panel.

Samsung 244T (widescreen) has a 24 inch 6 ms (g2g) S-PVA (Samsung LTM240M2) panel.

 

[Manga27]

For what it's worth:

When I read some of the posts on ResellerRatings.com, many of the
negative posts sound to me like hyper-active, low-budget and easily
unsatisfied buyers. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
But, one person was upset because his on-board video card kept
freezing with some game's 3D processing. Another post was about a
buyer who called to get a rush order just before the Thanksgiving
holiday, and was upset when it hadn't arrived to his home two days
later.

I'm not defending this company in any way, just pointing out some
impressions I found from ResellerRatings.com. I really wasn't able to
find any complaints that said, "Well they totally wouldn't honor the
warranty." or "They never delivered the computer I ordered."

Before I placed the order with PC USA I called to ask about Vista 64
compatibility. The guy in the sales department seemed to be
knowledgeable, and a nice person in general.

He did a spot check of my order and recommended some things I hadn't
considered. When I explained the purpose of the system (heavy 2D
graphics in Photoshop), he recommended downgrading the video card to
save money and upgrading the motherboard, since the newer 45 nm chips
wouldn't work in the older 650i series ASUS motherboards. Also, he
recommended the MSI board over ASUS because it apparently doesn't
suffer from the "2GB memory workaround" for installing 64-bit Vista.
Granted, it's a more expensive board, but since I downgraded the video
card I came up with a lower price in the end.

All-in-all, it seemed like a good experience, and I'll post again when
I've received the system and tested it out.

Thanks, all, for the help.

PS> There was a coupon on AbleShoppers.com for a refurb 22" Dell LCD
(1600x1050) for $220 after shipping, so I picked up one of those.

Take care,

.... Christopher

All,

This is a repost - sorry if it was duplicated, but it seems Google
lost my original. Based on the suggestions of everyone here, I have
come up with this $1,337 system - I'd appreciate someone "signing off"
on this config before I hit the checkout button.

NOTE: I've added a Rapter 150GB as the secondary (scratch) disk, but
used a standard 7,200RPM 320GB for the main drive. Can anyone let me
know, would dropping the 320GB slower drive and using a Rapter 150GB
as the main drive give that much of a performance boost to be worth
the extra $200+?

NOTE: I gave up on SLI - I don't need it right now, I'm not a gamer
and my work is 2D not 3D, so the performance increase would be
negligible.

NZXT: Alpha [ CS-NT-ACP-WOW ] ( Front USB, Audio ), Black
Original Case Power Supply QTY: 1
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300, LGA 775, 2.5GHz, 64-Bit Quad-Core, 6MB Cache;
1333MHz
Intel factory Auto-RPM Silent CPU Air Cool
Asus nForce 650i SLI, 8GB Max, SLI, RAID,1394, S/PDIF, Audio, GbLAN.
[ P5N-E SLI ]
8G (4x2GB) PC6400 DDR2/800
Geforce 8600GT: 512MB
320GB SATA-II 7200RPM w/16MB Buffer
Western Digital Rapter 150GB SATA 10000RPM w/ 16MB Buffer
MSI TV@nywhere Plus, TV Tuner, w/Remote Control
Integrated onBoard 10/100/(1000) Port(s)
108Mbps: Zonet ZEW1620, 802.11b/g PCI Internal Wireless Adapter
Windows Vista Home Premium - 64 Bit Edition - w/ DVD set

URL Link :
http://www.pcusa.com/shopKitConfig.asp?id=KIT-460&selectList=0,32,0,1...,

Thanks everyone!

... Christopher

Case - lower drive cage may conflict with long cards. Some video cards
are pretty long (8.5"). The PCUSA page says "8800GTX" compatible,
which I guess is their way of saying a long card fits.

The inside of the case might look like this. Newegg doesn't bundle the
PP500 power supply with this, so you could buy something else.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-146-041-10.jpg

"Case power supply" is a 500W unit. The NZXT site lists a "PP500", so
this could be the one PCUSA includes. Maybe someone else has an idea
who actually makes this (there is a lot of sub-contracting in the power
supply business).

http://www.nzxt.com/products/pp500/

+12V1DC 1 to 16 amps \__ (no derating when both fully used)
+12V2DC 1 to 17 amps /
+5VDC 0.3 to 40 amps \__ 250W max (plenty for lower rails - typ ~100W used)
+3.3VDC 0.5 to 34 amps /
-12VDC 0.0 to 0.8 amps
+5VSB 0.0 to 2.5 amps

P5N-E SLI CPUSupport page - Q9300 is not currently listed!

http://support.asus.com/cpusupport/cpusupport.aspx?SLanguage=en-us&mo...

P5N-E SLI product page.http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=473&l4=0&model=1474&m...

You should always download the motherboard manual, and have a read through it,
to see if the motherboard has everything you expected (like O.C. controls in
BIOS etc).

http://dlsvr03.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb...m/pub/ASUS/mb/socket775/P5N-E SLI/Q3180_p5n-e...

No 2GB sticks were tested for P5N-E, but that is because of the date of
release, rather than being a technical issue. 2GB sticks are a more recent
phenomenon.

http://www.asus.com/999/download/products/1474/1474_10.pdf

For user experiences and problem reports, you can look here.

http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx?board_id=1&model=P5N-E+SLI&SLang...

A thread on instability with 8GB total, here. Sounds like 2x2GB might be a
safer bet for a memory config.

http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?id=20080309093943625&board_id=1&m...

Processor is 95W. 8600GT is 43W (as per the second link). The
power supply should not have a problem with this.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLAWE

http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=513&card2=

Review on your selected supplier "pcusa". 5.29 out of 10. Not
everyone is happy with them. I think this is the place, that puts a
"warranty seal" on the computer case door.

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/PC_USA_dba_PC_Source

There is a thread discussing pcusa.com here. What you really want
to do, is find an absolutely current web page from them, to see
if the same warranty terms still apply.

http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt/browse_t...

For example, this is an archived web page from Aug.2006

http://web.archive.org/web/20060821015841/http://www.pcusa.com/displa...

"All warranty will be voided if any Warranty Sticker or Seal is broken off
on the purchased products. Any tempering of the warranty condition of any
purchased products voids the warranty of such products"

Good luck,
Paul

 

[Manga27]

Sweet! Thanks Fitz - I'm looking forward to the extra RAM and Raptor
scratch disk. ;-)

Take care,

.... Christopher

 

[Manga27]

A quick update:

My transaction with PCUSA.com is complete, so here's the final verdict
- overall, I am happy with the purchase but only reasonably happy with
their company.

* The desktop arrived on Thursday. It did not ship "Within 3 days"
as promised on their website - it took 10 days to ship (~8 business
days).
* When the box arrived it was well packed, however the wireless card
was unseated and the drivers were not installed.
* The hard drive came loose during shipping and fell off the rails.
This is because they use drive screws with no threads at the end, so
it doesn't actually attach tightly to the drives.
* The side-mounted fan (that goes into the plexiglass side window) is
annoyingly loud, with a high-pitched squeal coming from it. I
disconnected it immediately.
* They appear to use the cheapest parts - the network card was from
TRENDnet - but, I expected this for the price they charged. It took
some troubleshooting to get it to talk to my ASUS NAS.

All of these were easy fixes, but who wants an unseated card and 300GB
hard drive banging around inside the case during transit? The
computer appears to work fine however and is blazingly fast - Vista
x64 with 8GB RAM is great!

Thanks, all, for the advice.