First post: Help with pro-sumer homebuilt desktop upgrade

M

Manga27

Hey all,

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read / respond.

I am a full-time graphic designer, currently using a Dell Precision
M90 laptop (dual core, 2GB ram) and the strain of these huge Photoshop
files is killing this computer. :) Once the file gets above 300MB,
the computer slows to a crawl.

This has prompted me to upgrade to a quad-core desktop with tons of
ram. Some nice nvidia cards would be cool too. ;-)

I'm reasonably sure I can cobble together a desktop myself, though
it's been 3+ years since I put one together. If anyone can recommend
some good deals on off-the-shelf deals, here are the specs I'd like to
get:

Quad core, future upgradeable to dual quads.
8GB DDR2, future upgradeable to 16GB
2-way SLI 512MB (DX10 preferred)
500GB internal (RAID not req'd.)
A silent fan & nice looking case, but I'm not a hard-core gamer so the
lights aren't necessary.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Take care,

.... Christopher
 
M

Manga27

For some reference, here is a configuration I made on MagicMicro.com,
costing about $953. Perhaps someone can tell me if these parts are
adequate, or if I can get something better somewhere else:

CURRENT CONFIGURATION
AMD Phenom 9600+ (Quad Core) AM2+ 4MB Cache
Spire Kestrel-King V AMD 64 EXTRA QUIET fan
Gigabyte GA-M57 SLI nForce 570, SLI PCI-EX, DDR2 ,1GB LAN (Quad
support)
8GB (4x2GB) PC5300 DDR2 667 Dual Channel (Check board compatibility)
ATI CrossFire Radeon x1550 512MB x2 PCI Express 16x, tv out (2 cards)
320.0GB Hitachi/ IBM 7200rpm SATA2 UDMA 300 8m Cache
Sound Blaster Audigy SE 7.1
Ethernet network adapter (onboard)
Nikao Black Neon ATX Case w/ Temperature control, front USB & iEEE
PoWork Extra Quiet 600W ATX Power Supply SLI Ready


Take care,

.... Christopher
 
M

Michael Hawes

Manga27 said:
For some reference, here is a configuration I made on MagicMicro.com,
costing about $953. Perhaps someone can tell me if these parts are
adequate, or if I can get something better somewhere else:

CURRENT CONFIGURATION
AMD Phenom 9600+ (Quad Core) AM2+ 4MB Cache
Spire Kestrel-King V AMD 64 EXTRA QUIET fan
Gigabyte GA-M57 SLI nForce 570, SLI PCI-EX, DDR2 ,1GB LAN (Quad
support)
8GB (4x2GB) PC5300 DDR2 667 Dual Channel (Check board compatibility)
ATI CrossFire Radeon x1550 512MB x2 PCI Express 16x, tv out (2 cards)
320.0GB Hitachi/ IBM 7200rpm SATA2 UDMA 300 8m Cache
Sound Blaster Audigy SE 7.1
Ethernet network adapter (onboard)
Nikao Black Neon ATX Case w/ Temperature control, front USB & iEEE
PoWork Extra Quiet 600W ATX Power Supply SLI Ready


Take care,

... Christopher
Click to expand...
NO!!!!! That PSU is $30!!! You need a REAL PSU, at least $80!! If you
are fitting 8Mb of RAM you need a 64bit OS. Why do you want a 64 bit OS?
What 64 bit software are you planning to use?

Mike.
 
M

Manga27

Well, I suppose I'll upgrade Photoshop when it becomes 64-bit, but
even if I am using the regular 32-bit Photoshop, can't I run it on 64-
bit Windows Vista or XP?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Take care,

.... Christopher
 
F

Fishface

M

Manga27

And here's what Adobe has to say on the subject:
Click to expand...

"... If you have more than 4 GB (to 6 GB), then the RAM above 4 GB is
used by the operating system as a cache for the Photoshop scratch disk
data. Data that previously was written directly to the hard disk by
Photoshop is now cached in this high RAM before being written to the
hard disk by the operating system. If you are working with files large
enough to take advantage of these extra 2 GB of RAM, the RAM cache can
speed performance of Photoshop. Additionally, in Windows Vista 64-bit,
processing very large images is much faster if your computer has large
amounts of RAM (6-8 GB)."


This seems very interesting to me, since I am working now with huge
files: 500MB to 1GB in some cases, and growing daily. But, it seems
that many people are wary of using 64-bit operating systems since many
device drivers are missing... ? Is this a correct assumption, or am I
missing something here?

Does this also affect the software I load into 64-bit Windows? (for
example, if I use Firefox, Trillian, Skype... do there have to be 64-
bit versions of these programs, or will they be compatible with
Windows XP x64 natively?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Take care,

.... Christopher
 
M

Manga27

Based on everyone's suggestions, I've come up with a better
configuration that seems best for Photoshop work. I'd appreciate any
comments, and whether someone can point me towards the correct
components / good prices. Also, quiet components are essential for
Power Supplies and Case Fans as I do video conferencing and video
training as well.)

It seems Photoshop CS3 can still handle 6 to 8 GB ram, though the
system ends up using the ram higher than 4GB for a virtual scratch
disk. So, if anyone can help me decide whether or not to upgrade to
WinXP / Vista x64, it would be greatly helpful - the major concern
being support for all of the other programs I need.

Some SLI compatible Mobo with 1,333 or 1,600 FSB (any suggestions?)
Core 2 Quad 2.4 chip
Good 650 or 750 PSU (quiet one, please - any suggestions?)
EGA gforce 8800 GS 512GB ram
Two 150GB Raptors
4GB or 8GB DDR2

A nice 22" monitor would be nice to go alongside my tablet monitor -
any suggestions? Also, I probably need a vid. card with two outputs,
correct?



Looking forward to your thoughts.

Take care,

.... Christopher
 
J

John Doe

Manga27 said:
Well, I suppose I'll upgrade Photoshop when it becomes 64-bit, but
even if I am using the regular 32-bit Photoshop, can't I run it on
64- bit Windows Vista or XP?
Click to expand...

You can determine that by visiting a Photoshop group.
 
J

John Doe

Manga27 said:
I use Firefox, Trillian, Skype... do there have to be 64-
bit versions of these programs, or will they be compatible with
Windows XP x64 natively?
Click to expand...

If you don't find the answer here, there are USENET groups for all
types of software (and everything else).
 
J

John Doe

Manga27 said:
It seems Photoshop CS3 can still handle 6 to 8 GB ram, though the
system ends up using the ram higher than 4GB for a virtual scratch
disk. So, if anyone can help me decide whether or not to upgrade
to WinXP / Vista x64, it would be greatly helpful - the major
concern being support for all of the other programs I need.
Click to expand...

And, as you've already been told, you need to find drivers for
64-bit Windows or Vista. If Photoshop doesn't make primary use of
higher than 4 GB of RAM, why are you bent on a 64-bit operating
system? I think you're in for some significant research. Somehow I
doubt anyone here can tell you whether a 64-bit Windows will work
for you. One thing for sure, if you're using Windows 9x, run to the
store and buy windows XP or Vista.

One way to at least guarantee hardware compatibility with your
64-bit Windows is to buy a prebuilt system from a major PC maker
(OEM).

Good luck.
 
P

Paul

Does this also affect the software I load into 64-bit Windows? (for
example, if I use Firefox, Trillian, Skype... do there have to be 64-
bit versions of these programs, or will they be compatible with
Windows XP x64 natively?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Take care,

... Christopher
Click to expand...

When you use a 64 bit OS, it supports the execution of native
64 bit executables. But it also supports 32 bit executables.
That means you could take a five year old copy of Photoshop and
run it on your 64 bit OS. It is likely, that the same kind of
limits that may have been present in the 32 bit program, will
still be present when it is run in a 64 bit environment. To
understand more, you'd have to research exactly what aspects
of the execution environment, are maintained by WOW64.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOW64

Paul
 
F

Fishface

Manga27 said:
"... If you have more than 4 GB (to 6 GB), then the RAM above 4 GB is
used by the operating system as a cache for the Photoshop scratch disk
data. Data that previously was written directly to the hard disk by
Photoshop is now cached in this high RAM before being written to the
hard disk by the operating system. If you are working with files large
enough to take advantage of these extra 2 GB of RAM, the RAM cache can
speed performance of Photoshop. Additionally, in Windows Vista 64-bit,
processing very large images is much faster if your computer has large
amounts of RAM (6-8 GB)."


This seems very interesting to me, since I am working now with huge
files: 500MB to 1GB in some cases, and growing daily. But, it seems
that many people are wary of using 64-bit operating systems since many
device drivers are missing... ? Is this a correct assumption, or am I
missing something here?
Click to expand...

It does sound promising and you can learn a lot from other people's
experiences with Vista 64 by reading the comments here:
www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16832116215
Does this also affect the software I load into 64-bit Windows? (for
example, if I use Firefox, Trillian, Skype... do there have to be 64-
bit versions of these programs, or will they be compatible with
Windows XP x64 natively?
Click to expand...

I only know what I've read, which isn't all that much. There is a translation
layer for running 32 bit applications. I've heard that there are no drivers for
even Microsoft branded keyboards with "extra buttons." As for your apps,
Google!

When choosing a motherboard and video card, just make sure they are well
supported by the manufacturers for 64 bit operating systems. Microsoft has
a news server and there is a 64 bit computing group. You can add this news
server to your OE or Thunderbird:

msnews.microsoft.com

....or use the web based interface:

http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/co...spx?dg=microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general

Ask for peoples experiences in comp.publish.prepress. These are the
professionals and might have experience with this.
 
M

Manga27

Thanks for the advice, Joe.

The reason I've been bent on a 64-bit system, is that I wanted to get
above 4GB RAM. The 2GB / Dual Core system I have now is painfully
slow in my work, and I don't think doubling the ram and proc. to 4GB /
Quad is going to be enough.

Based on Adobe's documents (referenced in the thread above: thanks,
Fishface!) it would seem that Photoshop only can reference up to
~4GB... So, if I have 4GB, I might get 2GB RAM for Photoshop as some
processes are used for Windows / other programs.

But if I have 8GB RAM, Photoshop will be able to use a full 4GB, and
Windows can use anything above the 4GB.

(Also as a side note, if there is unused RAM it sounds as if Photoshop
will use this as a scratch disk - which I am sure is infinitely faster
than a hard-drive scratch disk.)

Take care,

.... Christopher
 
M

Manga27

All,

Thanks very much for the continued comments. I've taken all
considerations mentioned here and was able to configure this system
for ~$1,337. (I still haven't purchased it yet - I want to get
everyone's approval first.) ;-)

Interestingly, though I am not a 'h@x0r', I found it funny the price I
came up with is $1,337 which I have seen is geek-speak for "leet".
LOL

NOTES:
I took JR's suggestion of the Rapter but only added one to use as a
scratch disk, to save about $200.
I dropped the SLI since I don't need it at the moment, and can upgrade
later.

QUESTIONS:
Can anyone give me a good reason to go for Vista Business over Home
Premium?
Will an additional Rapter really affect the overall speed of the
computer enough to justify $200+?



Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300, LGA 775, 2.5GHz, 64-Bit Quad-Core, 6MB Cache;
1333MHz
Intel factory Auto-RPM Silent CPU Air Cool
Asus nForce 650i SLI, 8GB Max, SLI, RAID,1394, S/PDIF, Audio, GbLAN.
[ P5N-E SLI ]
8G (4x2GB) PC6400 DDR2/800
Geforce 8600GT: 512MB
320GB SATA-II 7200RPM w/16MB Buffer
Western Digital Rapter 150GB SATA 10000RPM w/ 16MB Buffer
20x Dual-Format/Dual-Layer DVDRW Driver
MSI TV@nywhere Plus, TV Tuner, w/Remote Control
High Definition 7.1 Digtial Surround Sound
Integrated onBoard 10/100/(1000) Port(s)
108Mbps: Zonet ZEW1620, 802.11b/g PCI Internal Wireless Adapter
Windows Vista Home Premium - 64 Bit Edition - w/ DVD set

URL Link :
http://www.pcusa.com/shopKitConfig....,7,4,0,0,3,9,0,0,2,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,10,0,5,0,0,0,
 
M

Manga27

All,

This is a repost - sorry if it was duplicated, but it seems Google
lost my original. Based on the suggestions of everyone here, I have
come up with this $1,337 system - I'd appreciate someone "signing off"
on this config before I hit the checkout button.

NOTE: I've added a Rapter 150GB as the secondary (scratch) disk, but
used a standard 7,200RPM 320GB for the main drive. Can anyone let me
know, would dropping the 320GB slower drive and using a Rapter 150GB
as the main drive give that much of a performance boost to be worth
the extra $200+?

NOTE: I gave up on SLI - I don't need it right now, I'm not a gamer
and my work is 2D not 3D, so the performance increase would be
negligible.


NZXT: Alpha [ CS-NT-ACP-WOW ] ( Front USB, Audio ), Black
Original Case Power Supply QTY: 1
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300, LGA 775, 2.5GHz, 64-Bit Quad-Core, 6MB Cache;
1333MHz
Intel factory Auto-RPM Silent CPU Air Cool
Asus nForce 650i SLI, 8GB Max, SLI, RAID,1394, S/PDIF, Audio, GbLAN.
[ P5N-E SLI ]
8G (4x2GB) PC6400 DDR2/800
Geforce 8600GT: 512MB
320GB SATA-II 7200RPM w/16MB Buffer
Western Digital Rapter 150GB SATA 10000RPM w/ 16MB Buffer
MSI TV@nywhere Plus, TV Tuner, w/Remote Control
Integrated onBoard 10/100/(1000) Port(s)
108Mbps: Zonet ZEW1620, 802.11b/g PCI Internal Wireless Adapter
Windows Vista Home Premium - 64 Bit Edition - w/ DVD set

URL Link :
http://www.pcusa.com/shopKitConfig....,7,4,0,0,3,9,0,0,2,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,10,0,5,0,0,0,



Thanks everyone!

.... Christopher
 
P

Paul

Manga27 said:
All,

This is a repost - sorry if it was duplicated, but it seems Google
lost my original. Based on the suggestions of everyone here, I have
come up with this $1,337 system - I'd appreciate someone "signing off"
on this config before I hit the checkout button.

NOTE: I've added a Rapter 150GB as the secondary (scratch) disk, but
used a standard 7,200RPM 320GB for the main drive. Can anyone let me
know, would dropping the 320GB slower drive and using a Rapter 150GB
as the main drive give that much of a performance boost to be worth
the extra $200+?

NOTE: I gave up on SLI - I don't need it right now, I'm not a gamer
and my work is 2D not 3D, so the performance increase would be
negligible.


NZXT: Alpha [ CS-NT-ACP-WOW ] ( Front USB, Audio ), Black
Original Case Power Supply QTY: 1
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300, LGA 775, 2.5GHz, 64-Bit Quad-Core, 6MB Cache;
1333MHz
Intel factory Auto-RPM Silent CPU Air Cool
Asus nForce 650i SLI, 8GB Max, SLI, RAID,1394, S/PDIF, Audio, GbLAN.
[ P5N-E SLI ]
8G (4x2GB) PC6400 DDR2/800
Geforce 8600GT: 512MB
320GB SATA-II 7200RPM w/16MB Buffer
Western Digital Rapter 150GB SATA 10000RPM w/ 16MB Buffer
MSI TV@nywhere Plus, TV Tuner, w/Remote Control
Integrated onBoard 10/100/(1000) Port(s)
108Mbps: Zonet ZEW1620, 802.11b/g PCI Internal Wireless Adapter
Windows Vista Home Premium - 64 Bit Edition - w/ DVD set

URL Link :
http://www.pcusa.com/shopKitConfig....,7,4,0,0,3,9,0,0,2,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,10,0,5,0,0,0,



Thanks everyone!

... Christopher
Click to expand...

Case - lower drive cage may conflict with long cards. Some video cards
are pretty long (8.5"). The PCUSA page says "8800GTX" compatible,
which I guess is their way of saying a long card fits.

The inside of the case might look like this. Newegg doesn't bundle the
PP500 power supply with this, so you could buy something else.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-146-041-10.jpg

"Case power supply" is a 500W unit. The NZXT site lists a "PP500", so
this could be the one PCUSA includes. Maybe someone else has an idea
who actually makes this (there is a lot of sub-contracting in the power
supply business).

http://www.nzxt.com/products/pp500/

+12V1DC 1 to 16 amps \__ (no derating when both fully used)
+12V2DC 1 to 17 amps /
+5VDC 0.3 to 40 amps \__ 250W max (plenty for lower rails - typ ~100W used)
+3.3VDC 0.5 to 34 amps /
-12VDC 0.0 to 0.8 amps
+5VSB 0.0 to 2.5 amps

P5N-E SLI CPUSupport page - Q9300 is not currently listed!

http://support.asus.com/cpusupport/cpusupport.aspx?SLanguage=en-us&model=P5N-E SLI

P5N-E SLI product page.
http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=473&l4=0&model=1474&modelmenu=1

You should always download the motherboard manual, and have a read through it,
to see if the motherboard has everything you expected (like O.C. controls in
BIOS etc).

http://dlsvr03.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/socket775/P5N-E SLI/e2968b_p5n-e_sli.zip
http://dlsvr03.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/socket775/P5N-E SLI/Q3180_p5n-e-sli-insert.zip

No 2GB sticks were tested for P5N-E, but that is because of the date of
release, rather than being a technical issue. 2GB sticks are a more recent
phenomenon.

http://www.asus.com/999/download/products/1474/1474_10.pdf

For user experiences and problem reports, you can look here.

http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx?board_id=1&model=P5N-E+SLI&SLanguage=en-us

A thread on instability with 8GB total, here. Sounds like 2x2GB might be a
safer bet for a memory config.

http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx...d_id=1&model=P5N-E+SLI&page=1&SLanguage=en-us

Processor is 95W. 8600GT is 43W (as per the second link). The
power supply should not have a problem with this.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLAWE

http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=513&card2=

Review on your selected supplier "pcusa". 5.29 out of 10. Not
everyone is happy with them. I think this is the place, that puts a
"warranty seal" on the computer case door.

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/PC_USA_dba_PC_Source

There is a thread discussing pcusa.com here. What you really want
to do, is find an absolutely current web page from them, to see
if the same warranty terms still apply.

http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.c...read/thread/ff3c09dce64b41da/68d54fd1046be0c6

For example, this is an archived web page from Aug.2006

http://web.archive.org/web/20060821015841/http://www.pcusa.com/displayCustomPage.asp?id=5

"All warranty will be voided if any Warranty Sticker or Seal is broken off
on the purchased products. Any tempering of the warranty condition of any
purchased products voids the warranty of such products"

Good luck,
Paul
 
J

John Doe

Manga27 said:
The reason I've been bent on a 64-bit system, is that I wanted to
get above 4GB RAM. The 2GB / Dual Core system I have now is
painfully slow in my work,
Click to expand...

What are the core processor loads? If they are very unbalanced, see
if you can find a utility that spreads the load more evenly. Some
guy just wrote one for Supreme Commander, gamers say it works great.
I would think that sort of utility is highly desirable for work
applications.
and I don't think doubling the ram and proc. to 4GB / Quad is
going to be enough.
Click to expand...

Doubling your RAM should make a huge difference.
Based on Adobe's documents (referenced in the thread above:
thanks, Fishface!) it would seem that Photoshop only can reference
up to ~4GB... So, if I have 4GB, I might get 2GB RAM for
Photoshop as some processes are used for Windows / other programs.
Click to expand...

Stop guessing and use Performance Monitor or MemStatus to determine
that.
But if I have 8GB RAM, Photoshop will be able to use a full 4GB,
and Windows can use anything above the 4GB.

(Also as a side note, if there is unused RAM it sounds as if
Photoshop will use this as a scratch disk - which I am sure is
infinitely faster than a hard-drive scratch disk.)
Click to expand...

You need to stop guessing and ask regular users in a Photoshop
group, IMO.

Good luck.
 
M

Manga27

John,
Stop guessing and use Performance Monitor or MemStatus to determine
that.
Click to expand...

How can I test this, when I don't have a 4GB system?

Thanks for your help.

Take care,

.... Christopher
 
J

John Doe

How can I test this, when I don't have a 4GB system?
Click to expand...

Use Performance Monitor or MemStatus to find out how much memory
"some processes" are using. Or just open Windows Task Manager and
look at Physical Memory.
 

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