Faulty fans: dust or bearings?

[S.Boardman]

I have a MSI KT Ultra motherboard (VIA KT333 chipset) and an Athlon XP 2100.

Normally this pc is running SETI 24/7. However, recently, on the occasional
reboots, the alarm sounds because one or both of the fans are either not
going round, or too slowly. Sometimes the CPU fan just takes a while to get
to full speed (~5000rpm). Sometimes the fan on the chipset goes round
jerkily, before finally getting up to speed.
I've noticed that occasionally in Windows the CPU fan has dropped to
~2000rpm. If I then put my finger on the fan to stop it, just a quick tap,
it will often fix itself and go back to ~5000rpm.

Given that both fans seem to be affected, and it is quite dusty, should a
good blast of air (when I manage to find somewhere to buy it) fix it? Or is
it the fan bearings? Or something else?

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Alien Zord]

Dust in bearings = worn bearings. A bit of molly (molybdenum disulphate or
MS) or lithium grease will make them last another 3 months or so but they
will have to be replaced eventually. I've managed to find industrial grade
fans (not cheap) for replacement purposes and they've been great, not one
failure yet.

 

[Lane Lewis]

Replace the fans with panaflows their quieter and should last about 10
years, most fans that come with computers should be thrown in the trash
because their so cheaply built.

http://www.casecooler.com/vanstealquie.html

Lane

 

[S.Boardman]

Replace the fans with panaflows their quieter and should last about 10
years, most fans that come with computers should be thrown in the trash
because their so cheaply built.

http://www.casecooler.com/vanstealquie.html

Lane

OK. Is it possible to replace the chipset fan? Or do I have to replace the
whole motherboard?

 

[Lane Lewis]

OK. Is it possible to replace the chipset fan? Or do I have to replace the
whole motherboard?

It can be replaced but panaflow doesn't make one that small, just do the
best you can on that one.

Lane

 

[kony]

OK. Is it possible to replace the chipset fan? Or do I have to replace the
whole motherboard?

KT333 chipsets can run fine with a passive cooler (assuming
typical/adequate chassis airflow).

http://www.svcompucycle.com/zazmnobrhe.html
http://www.svcompucycle.com/zanoco.html


Dave

 

[ric]

It can be replaced but panaflow doesn't make one that small, just do the
best you can on that one.

They make some pretty small fans.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/appliance/pdf/fans_mini_cool.pdf

 

[kony]

They make some pretty small fans.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/appliance/pdf/fans_mini_cool.pdf

Yep, they make fans small enough, but finding them sold in single
units is hard, and even harder with the appropriate plug on the end.
Probably someplace like http://www.digikey.com .. they do have the
following, but it's ball-bearing (which in my mind is actually better)
but are quite steeply priced @ $15 ea, and probably bare wires so
there's still the need for a plug or soldering/crimping/etc, not
something one ought to have to do for a fan already costing $15:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/us/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=77447&Row=345174

The following "might" be a reasonable substitute, but thicker, needing
new screws. This is assuming the original fan is 40mm sq. However,
very few if any decent aftermarket fans are going to have the same
backwards flow and open-frame mounting as the original on the
motherboard.
http://sales.goldmine-elec.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=2549


Dave

 

[S.Boardman]

Yep, they make fans small enough, but finding them sold in single
units is hard, and even harder with the appropriate plug on the end.
Probably someplace like http://www.digikey.com .. they do have the
following, but it's ball-bearing (which in my mind is actually better)
but are quite steeply priced @ $15 ea, and probably bare wires so
there's still the need for a plug or soldering/crimping/etc, not
something one ought to have to do for a fan already costing $15:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/us/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=77447&Row=345174

The following "might" be a reasonable substitute, but thicker, needing
new screws. This is assuming the original fan is 40mm sq. However,
very few if any decent aftermarket fans are going to have the same
backwards flow and open-frame mounting as the original on the
motherboard.
http://sales.goldmine-elec.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=2549


Dave

I'm in the UK not the US. I'm also not *that* technical, I'm afraid. I
haven't yet worked out how to get the chipset fan off for cleaning! I'm also
afraid if I try and get the CPU fan off, I'm going to scrape the motherboard
:-(

 

[S.Boardman]

KT333 chipsets can run fine with a passive cooler (assuming
typical/adequate chassis airflow).

http://www.svcompucycle.com/zazmnobrhe.html
http://www.svcompucycle.com/zanoco.html


Dave

I run it with the case off. With case on, CPU temp gets to 57 deg, with the
case off it is only 50 deg. It's also pretty noisy. I'm thinking maybe I
should just get another motherboard, new CPU (one with a cooler barton
core). New CPUs don't come with a heatsink and fan, do they? Should I get
one that supports a higher spec CPU? Do I need to get thermal grease or
something as well?

 

[John]

I'm in the UK not the US. I'm also not *that* technical, I'm afraid. I
haven't yet worked out how to get the chipset fan off for cleaning! I'm also
afraid if I try and get the CPU fan off, I'm going to scrape the motherboard
:-(

Most are screwed on. Most of the boards Ive had - theres a small
square heatsink glued onto the chip - thermal epoxy probably. Then the
small square fan housing which has tiny screws in the corners screw
into the actual space between some of the prongs - the heatsink
itself. There are no special screw holes.

If you look around at some small hole in the wall computer shops they
should have one though many wont Youll have to do a search on the web
and call around. Here its the same way.

Actually COMPUSA has them in a pack with several small heatsinks and
one fan and themal tape for $10.

You need a small eyeglass screw driver - the kind you use for the
glasses and the like.

Now a few boards use a proprietary setup similar to the ones used on
video cards . These are a pain in the ass. ASUS started doing it
before going to the passive heatsinks. They have a heatsink which is
like a TRAY which houses the BARE fan so that you cant buy fan and
just screw it on.

Actually this isnt that hard too but a bit more hassle. The tray is
held on by plastic feet and springs just like on some video cards You
have to cut the plastic feet with wire cutters or push the plastic
feet ends out of the MB holes. Then the whole heatsink and fan plop
off. You just have bare chip. YOur best bet then is to get
something like that COMPUSA pack - but in the UK obviously they wont
have it so you need thermal tape, dinky heatsink and fan.


A substiute that will work actually better is a very small and I mean
small and wimpy 486 fan htsink combo with thermal tape. That Im sure
you can find somewhere but it has to be a really small depending on
your MB if there are capacitors and other things in the way near the
chip it might not fit.


In case you have a really weird MB where the heatsink is a tray - with
unreplaceable fan and the whole thing is glued on by epoxy try this.

Get an old credit card or other hard plastic sheet. lay it on the
board under the screwdriver as shield so you dont nick the MB.
Put the screwdriver inbetween the chip and the heatsink and pry it up
and youll hear a crack as the heatsink comes off.

This was recommended at alot of sites for prying off video card
heatsinks to put better ones on. I was skeptical but tried it on a
video card and it works like a charm. Its a bit scary though.

 

[kony]

I'm in the UK not the US. I'm also not *that* technical, I'm afraid. I
haven't yet worked out how to get the chipset fan off for cleaning! I'm also
afraid if I try and get the CPU fan off, I'm going to scrape the motherboard
:-(

If your motherboard northbridge fan looks like this
http://www.hothardware.com/reviews/images/msi_kt3/board.jpg ,
it appears to be held to the heatsink by two screws opposite the two
plastic pins securing the whole thing to the motherboard, so just
remove those two screws.

The Zalman northbridge heatsinks I linked in my other reply may be
available in the UK as well as the US, or any similar alternate
product might do well enough.

It can be dangerous to remove and attach a heatsink. It's best done
with the board outside of the case if you don't have good access to
it. That seems to be the case with your motherboard if it has the
socket near the top edge of the board, with the clip right up against
the power supply as suggested by the picture I linked above. I find
that configuration annoying enough that I bent up and filed away at a
screwdriver until it was useless for anything other than these types
of difficult heatsink removals. It works well but wouldn't be any
easier than pulling the whole motherboard (or power supply) if you
only need remove the heatsink on one or two systems.

It also helps a lot to have the proper-sized tool... usually a 3/16"-
sized regular screwdriver works well, but certainly can vary per the
specific clip on the heatsink. If you don't feel comfortable taking
the whole thing off you can probably remove only the fan, usually by
screws in each corner but can vary per heatsink design.


Dave

 

[kony]

"kony" <[email protected]> wrote in message

I run it with the case off. With case on, CPU temp gets to 57 deg, with the
case off it is only 50 deg. It's also pretty noisy. I'm thinking maybe I
should just get another motherboard, new CPU (one with a cooler barton
core). New CPUs don't come with a heatsink and fan, do they? Should I get
one that supports a higher spec CPU? Do I need to get thermal grease or
something as well?

Generally that much of a difference in temp between having the case
open or closed means your case needs more airflow, or redirected
airflow. As per AMD recommendations it's best to have at minimum a
rear case fan blowing out beneath the power supply and a fan (or large
grillwork) on the bottom of the power supply. BOTH of these features
aren't always necessary, especially if you have other intake fans, but
in general it's the easiest way to get the airflow moving past the CPU
enough to get the heat out of the case instead of recirculating it.

If you want a newer motherboard and CPU, buy them, but that's not
going to affect the noise much if you're reusing the other parts
making the noise, like the heatsink and/or power supply fan. The
exception to this would be if your motherboard has a fan control
circuit that varies fan speed based on CPU temp, and/or the heatsink's
fan has this function built-in. Otherwise a cooler running CPU won't
do much to reduce the noise since it will still be the same fan, still
running at the same RPM.

See the motherboard manufacturer's product page and BIOS download
(notes) to determine which CPUs your motherboard supports. If it
supports the faster CPU you want, there isn't much point to buying a
new board when all you need is a heatsink/fan. A newer-tech board
would otherwise have slightly better performance, but not worth the $
for that slight difference alone, and might even require buying better
memory if your current memory isn't of high enough spec to work at the
higher memory bus speed, more finicky memory busses of some newer
boards (like nForce2).

The same heatsink can work for both CPUs if you buy one that mounts on
the socket lugs. Newer motherboards may or may not have the
through-board mounting holes around the socket, so that type of
heatsink, while generally better, might not work with a newer
motherboard, is something to watch out for when/if shopping for a new
board. If you didn't need extra performance, were only seeking quiet,
then just replace the heatink/fan now, as your present CPU can run
silent with a good heatsink on it.

RETAIL packaged CPUs include the heatsink fan, and while it's adequate
for cooling a stock-speed Barton, it isn't particularly quiet. The
best approach for a quiet heastink is to buy the one you want
separate, something with a copper base (or all copper), accepting an
80mm fan, then buy a good low-RPM 80x25mm fan for it (since most
heatsinks that come with fan included have a fan that's not
particularly quiet, so unless it's specifically noted to be very quiet
or low RPM, perhaps under 2500RPM, it's not going to be as quiet as it
could be).


Dave

 

[W. North]

I have been following this thread, thanks for all the great information
about fans and cooling from all of you.

I have a Dell 8300 computer that has a CPU cooling fan assembly that will
literally drive you nuts from the fan noise. There is a large heat sink on
the CPU ([email protected]) and the fn assembly has a cheap plastic shroud over it
attached to a fan. The fan appears to have a thermal control ceramic device
that makes it runs faster with the heat increase, unfortunately, it gets
very loud. Dealing with Dell has been a joke, they just keep sending me the
same lousy replacement.

My question is, can I use a heatsink and/or fan assembly like you describe
here fro my system? Would something from panaflow work? Any other tips are
welcome, I have changed parts before inside the case, never a fan though.

Thanks in advance,

widget

 

[S.Boardman]

If your motherboard northbridge fan looks like this
http://www.hothardware.com/reviews/images/msi_kt3/board.jpg ,
it appears to be held to the heatsink by two screws opposite the two
plastic pins securing the whole thing to the motherboard, so just
remove those two screws.

Yes it does.

The Zalman northbridge heatsinks I linked in my other reply may be
available in the UK as well as the US, or any similar alternate
product might do well enough.

It can be dangerous to remove and attach a heatsink. It's best done
with the board outside of the case if you don't have good access to
it. That seems to be the case with your motherboard if it has the
socket near the top edge of the board, with the clip right up against
the power supply as suggested by the picture I linked above. I find
that configuration annoying enough that I bent up and filed away at a
screwdriver until it was useless for anything other than these types
of difficult heatsink removals. It works well but wouldn't be any
easier than pulling the whole motherboard (or power supply) if you
only need remove the heatsink on one or two systems.

It is right up against it. And I only have a very limited amount of
screwdrivers :-(

It also helps a lot to have the proper-sized tool... usually a 3/16"-
sized regular screwdriver works well, but certainly can vary per the
specific clip on the heatsink. If you don't feel comfortable taking
the whole thing off you can probably remove only the fan, usually by
screws in each corner but can vary per heatsink design.

I'll have a go. Thanks.

 

[S.Boardman]

Generally that much of a difference in temp between having the case
open or closed means your case needs more airflow, or redirected
airflow. As per AMD recommendations it's best to have at minimum a
rear case fan blowing out beneath the power supply and a fan (or large
grillwork) on the bottom of the power supply. BOTH of these features
aren't always necessary, especially if you have other intake fans, but
in general it's the easiest way to get the airflow moving past the CPU
enough to get the heat out of the case instead of recirculating it.

I have an intake fan at the front, the power supply fan, and a fan under the
power supply fan.
I have had ago with the compressed air. The fans seem a little better, the
CPU fan running at 5600-5800rpm, the temp is 48 degrees.

If you want a newer motherboard and CPU, buy them, but that's not
going to affect the noise much if you're reusing the other parts
making the noise, like the heatsink and/or power supply fan. The
exception to this would be if your motherboard has a fan control
circuit that varies fan speed based on CPU temp, and/or the heatsink's
fan has this function built-in. Otherwise a cooler running CPU won't
do much to reduce the noise since it will still be the same fan, still
running at the same RPM.

I was thinking new fan and CPU [cpu fan just dipped from 5800 to 4900 as I
type...], assuming that it noisy because of dust in bearings, or something
like that. And motherboard.

See the motherboard manufacturer's product page and BIOS download
(notes) to determine which CPUs your motherboard supports. If it
supports the faster CPU you want, there isn't much point to buying a
new board when all you need is a heatsink/fan. A newer-tech board
would otherwise have slightly better performance, but not worth the $
for that slight difference alone, and might even require buying better
memory if your current memory isn't of high enough spec to work at the
higher memory bus speed, more finicky memory busses of some newer
boards (like nForce2).

I have PC2700 2 x 256 DDR. I would only get a new mboard if I still get
problems with the chipset fan. What speed should the chipset fan be running
at? Sometimes, 25% of the time, it still doesn't go round when I reboot,
especially if the PC has been off for a bit.
Aside: I was looking at an nForce2 board, what does it need memory wise?

The same heatsink can work for both CPUs if you buy one that mounts on
the socket lugs. Newer motherboards may or may not have the
through-board mounting holes around the socket, so that type of
heatsink, while generally better, might not work with a newer
motherboard, is something to watch out for when/if shopping for a new
board. If you didn't need extra performance, were only seeking quiet,
then just replace the heatink/fan now, as your present CPU can run
silent with a good heatsink on it.
Right-o.

RETAIL packaged CPUs include the heatsink fan, and while it's adequate
for cooling a stock-speed Barton, it isn't particularly quiet. The
best approach for a quiet heastink is to buy the one you want
separate, something with a copper base (or all copper), accepting an
80mm fan, then buy a good low-RPM 80x25mm fan for it (since most
heatsinks that come with fan included have a fan that's not
particularly quiet, so unless it's specifically noted to be very quiet
or low RPM, perhaps under 2500RPM, it's not going to be as quiet as it
could be).

80mm? I don't think mine is that big, or is it...? Copper sounds good

Thanks again

 

[S.Boardman]

Well I thought I had fixed it :-(

It just dropped right down <1900... I gave it a poke and it's now gone back
up to 5600rpm. It can't be dust, cos I've cleaned it.

(Just a thought, it couldn't be a power to the fan issue, could it? The PSU
says output:300W.)

Time to replace the fan? Definitive answer required! Please?

 

[kony]

I have been following this thread, thanks for all the great information
about fans and cooling from all of you.

I have a Dell 8300 computer that has a CPU cooling fan assembly that will
literally drive you nuts from the fan noise. There is a large heat sink on
the CPU ([email protected]) and the fn assembly has a cheap plastic shroud over it
attached to a fan. The fan appears to have a thermal control ceramic device
that makes it runs faster with the heat increase, unfortunately, it gets
very loud. Dealing with Dell has been a joke, they just keep sending me the
same lousy replacement.

My question is, can I use a heatsink and/or fan assembly like you describe
here fro my system? Would something from panaflow work? Any other tips are
welcome, I have changed parts before inside the case, never a fan though.

Thanks in advance,

widget

In general, yes, you could swap the heatsink, except that you need to
double-check that this OEM system has a standard mounting and likely
you'd need either remove the shroud or trim it back to a different
size. WIth the shroud on it could impede the air intake of a typical
heatsink which sucks air into the heatsink.

However, from your description it seems that it's the rear fan, which
also serves as a chassis fan, making the noise. I can't advise
removing that fan without any evidence that the system would have
enough chassis airflow without it. You might need also replace that
fan with a lower RPM model or use some other method of reducing it's
speed, like a fan speed controller.


Dave

 

[kony]

I have an intake fan at the front, the power supply fan, and a fan under the
power supply fan.
I have had ago with the compressed air. The fans seem a little better, the
CPU fan running at 5600-5800rpm, the temp is 48 degrees.

There's part of the noise, 5600 RPM is way too fast for a quiet
system.

I was thinking new fan and CPU [cpu fan just dipped from 5800 to 4900 as I
type...], assuming that it noisy because of dust in bearings, or something
like that. And motherboard.

I would've considered the fan very loud when brand new, let alone now.
High-RPM fans wear faster, once there's wear it'll be louder... it's
not the dust _causing_ the noise, it's the dust (or RPM) causing wear,
that causes noise... now that it's worn, dust or no dust it's going to
remain noisey. Replace the motherboard fan and CPU heatsink/fan.

I have PC2700 2 x 256 DDR. I would only get a new mboard if I still get
problems with the chipset fan. What speed should the chipset fan be running
at? Sometimes, 25% of the time, it still doesn't go round when I reboot,
especially if the PC has been off for a bit.

Chipset fans don't need to turn fast at all. Passive coolers will
work on a KT333 chipset and any low-RPM fan works as well as a passive
cooler. I'd just buy a passive cooler unless you really wanted a
different motherboard for other reasons.

Aside: I was looking at an nForce2 board, what does it need memory wise?

Your present memory may work, it can be hit-or-miss. In particular
the higher-grade memory with "CAS2" specifications is more likely to
work.

80mm? I don't think mine is that big, or is it...? Copper sounds good

Only aftermarket coolers have 80mm fan. I don't know what the best
value is at the moment for lowest-cost replacement heatsink taking
80mm fans, but in higher performance coolers there's a fair deal on a
Thermalright SLK-800 here:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/therslsoc462.html

There also have a quiet Panaflo L1A fan that could be used on it,
though their price on the fan isn't all that great... might be cheaper
than paying shipping to order the fan somewhere else but otherwise
that fan is priced above it's average going rate:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/pan80.html


Dave

 

[kony]

Well I thought I had fixed it :-(

It just dropped right down <1900... I gave it a poke and it's now gone back
up to 5600rpm. It can't be dust, cos I've cleaned it.

If it's a sleeve-bearing fan you might put a drop of oil in it, but
that's certainly only a short-term solution with a 5600 RPM fan.

(Just a thought, it couldn't be a power to the fan issue, could it? The PSU
says output:300W.)

Time to replace the fan? Definitive answer required! Please?

It's not a power issue, a fan would easily run at voltage drops low
enough to prevent the HDD from working properly.

Replace the heatsink/fan, and a new northbridge fan or new northbridge
heatsink. For the lowest cost you could instead just replace the CPU
heatsink fan instead of the whole heatsink, though you couldn't use a
very low RPM fan on it, it would still be non-silent. If it doesn't
need be really quiet you might measure the fan and buy a similar sized
fan with only ~ 3600 RPM.


Dave