Faulty fans: dust or bearings?

S

S.Boardman

Replace the heatsink/fan, and a new northbridge fan or new northbridge
heatsink. For the lowest cost you could instead just replace the CPU
heatsink fan instead of the whole heatsink, though you couldn't use a
very low RPM fan on it, it would still be non-silent. If it doesn't
need be really quiet you might measure the fan and buy a similar sized
fan with only ~ 3600 RPM.

Without wishing to sound stupid... wouldn't a 3600 fan blow less air? Making
it less good at cooling?

The northbridge fan it right jammed up against some bobbly bits
(capacitors?) :-(
I 'd like to get a new heatsink copper one as well as a new fan, but I'm not
sure how to put one on... *shame*
Hell if I'm doing that, and there is a BIOS upgrade available, I may as well
get another CPU too!
 
K

kony

Without wishing to sound stupid... wouldn't a 3600 fan blow less air? Making
it less good at cooling?

There are no stupid questions.. the only thing stupid would be NOT
asking when you have a need to know.

It's true, a fan of same dimensions (including thickness) will have a
lower airflow if a 3600 RPM fan. However, beyond a certain airflow
rate there is diminishing return for each additional RPM... axial fans
are very poor at creating pressure to force air through the 'sink,
beyond a pressure level they can sustain, their noise & turbulence
increases far more than the airflow. Even 3600RPM isn't needed on a
good heatsink, but 3600RPM is likely needed for a 'sink designed to
use a smaller higher-RPM fan. In other words, by using a heatsink
marketed as high-performance, something an overclocker might use,
you're getting a hunk of metal with better performance, so the fan
doesn't need to more as much air, and with a larger fan, the RPM
needed for same airflow can be lower.

This, and your desire for a faster CPU, is why I suggested a
replacement heatsink in the first place, not just the fan, mentioning
a fan as the low-cost option. If it were as effective an option as
(replacing the entire heatsink with a version using an 80x25mm fan) I
would not even mention the significantly higher-cost option of
replacing the entire heatsink. Even so, a 25mm thick 3600 RPM fan may
be enough airflow... it depends a lot on the heatsink under it. I
don't have your heatsink so I can't test it's effectiveness at any
given CFM airflow.

The northbridge fan it right jammed up against some bobbly bits
(capacitors?) :-(

If it's the same as that picture I linked previously, that's a pretty
standard size for a northbridge heatsink, almost any replacement
should fit.
I 'd like to get a new heatsink copper one as well as a new fan, but I'm not
sure how to put one on... *shame*
Hell if I'm doing that, and there is a BIOS upgrade available, I may as well
get another CPU too!

Yes, if you're thinking of upgrading the CPU anyway that would be a
good time to do it. The BIOS upgrade should be done before swapping
the CPUs, make sure the system is still running correctly after the
BIOS update before changing the CPU.

The important part of putting on the heatsink is to be able to see
what you're doing and take your time. Given your apprehension, and
the location/orientation of the CPU socket, it might be best to remove
the motherboard from the case, or if the case's motherboard tray is
removable, just remove the whole tray with the motherboard still
mounted on it.

Putting the heatsink on is pretty straightforward, the reverse of
taking one off. Remove the old thermal interface material between the
CPU and heatsink (might require a petroleum-based solvent like
"Goo-Gone" or WD-40, etc, if it's a hard gummy substance rather than a
greaselike compound that can be wiped off). Before installing the new
heatsink apply a fresh, paper-thin coating of thermal compound on the
core (raised center only) of the CPU.

Attach the side of the clip to the bottom of the socket first (on your
particular motherboard) with the heatsink oriented so the raised area
on the bottom corresponds to the raised area on the socket.

If you mount the heatsink backwards it's possible it wouldn't even be
in contact with most of the CPU, so be sure it's not mounted in 180'
reverse direction. On your motherboard that means the side of the
clip that has a tab for hand-pressure or a slot for the screwdriver,
should normally be mounted facing up, towards the power supply.

Try to keep the heatsink bottom as parallel to the CPU as possible,
not letting it put too much stress on a corner of the CPU.

There are more detailed instructions on installing heatsinks available
on the 'net, though I don't remember where, which are best... a Google
search should find enough information, but it's a pretty
straightforward process.


Dave
 
S

S.Boardman

[snip good advice.]


I have saved your post for future reference. You're a very handy person, you
know!

I shall go looking for UK overclocking sites...

Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back (from another pc!) if I get into
trouble! If I find what might be suitable, OK if I ask you to check?
 
R

ric

kony said:
It's true, a fan of same dimensions (including thickness) will have a
lower airflow if a 3600 RPM fan. However, beyond a certain airflow
rate there is diminishing return for each additional RPM...axial fans
are very poor at creating pressure to force air through the 'sink,
beyond a pressure level they can sustain, their noise & turbulence
increases far more than the airflow. Even 3600RPM isn't needed on a
good heatsink, but 3600RPM is likely needed for a 'sink designed to
use a smaller higher-RPM fan. In other words, by using a heatsink
marketed as high-performance, something an overclocker might use,
you're getting a hunk of metal with better performance, so the fan
doesn't need to more as much air, and with a larger fan, the RPM
needed for same airflow can be lower.

This would tend to be 180 degrees opposed to your criticism of the new
PCP&C low profile P4 coolers, no? They rely more on a "hunk of metal
with better performance" and less on fan CFM.
 
K

kony

Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back (from another pc!) if I get into
trouble! If I find what might be suitable, OK if I ask you to check?

Sure, just post a link to it if applicable.


Dave
 
K

kony

This would tend to be 180 degrees opposed to your criticism of the new
PCP&C low profile P4 coolers, no? They rely more on a "hunk of metal
with better performance" and less on fan CFM.

Not necessarily, their "hunk of metal" has the top half cut off
(compared to a hypothetical, full-sized desktop 'sink) to fit in a 1U
case, which is necessary for 1U, but sub-optimal for desktop use,
reduces the efficiency.

Also their fan is low-CFM, but for the opposite reason, because it's
small and thin, is going to be louder than same CFM from a larger fan,
and even if it's a good fan, those 10mm thick fans seem to be harder
on their bearings than a 15mm or thicker fan. I've noticed these thin
fans' bearings do get significantly louder over time. Likely it's
because it takes a 15mm thickness to fit two good-sized bearings, I'll
assume their fan only has one.

It is the worst of both worlds in a desktop, but necessary due to
height restrictions for the intended platform, as are all 1U 'sinks.
It's not a knock against PC Power & Cooling's version of a 1U 'sink,
only that a 1U 'sink isn't the best choice in a bigger chassis.


Dave
 
S

S.Boardman

kony said:
Sure, just post a link to it if applicable.
There's so many :-( What spec should I be looking at? I'm going to get an
Athlon XP2700 to replace my 2000 (BIOS permitting - forgot to check).
The best I've seen seem to be around 30 GBP (or 50 USD for all you
Merrycans) for heatsink and fan. Is that about right for one that you
describe?
 
K

kony

There's so many :-( What spec should I be looking at? I'm going to get an
Athlon XP2700 to replace my 2000 (BIOS permitting - forgot to check).
The best I've seen seem to be around 30 GBP (or 50 USD for all you
Merrycans) for heatsink and fan. Is that about right for one that you
describe?

Not knowing the market there I wouldn't know a good price in pounds if
I saw it.... 50 USD would buy something unnecessarily extravagant here
unless it was full retail pricing.

Get something with at least a large copper plate on the bottom (not
just a small copper insert), or all-copper, that takes an 80mm fan.
Often, if these coolers come with a fan it's louder than necessary,
geared towards overclocking, even excessive for many overclockers, so
the original fan (if one is included) can have it's RPM reduced by a
fan-speed controller or various modifications, or just buy the
preferred fan separate. Resist the urge to buy a cheap no-name
sleeve-bearing fan. Better fan makes include Nidec, Vantec, Papst,
Panaflo, NMB, Delta & Sunon (these last two in their dual-ball-bearing
models only), and others.

By using a higher-quality cooler with 80mm (25mm thick) fan you should
have adequate cooling with RPM of 1600-2500RPM... towards the higher
end for a case with lesser airflow and/or you want to overclock, or
the lower end if you're certain it's always getting good airflow in a
mild climate (like air-conditioned room).

As an example,

For ~$40 USD:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/thslsoco.html

Plus either of these fan:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/pan80.html
http://www.svcompucycle.com/vantec.html

For ~$25
http://www.svcompucycle.com/thsibo.html

For an entire line of heatsinks to consider, you might look at
Thermalright... anything large enough to take an 80mm fan should be
enough for an XP2700. I think their lowest-end models that meet this
standard are the AX-7 and SK-7, then there's the SLK-700, SLK-800,
900, 900U, 900A, etc, etc.


Dave
 
S

S.Boardman

kony said:
Not knowing the market there I wouldn't know a good price in pounds if
I saw it.... 50 USD would buy something unnecessarily extravagant here
unless it was full retail pricing.

Get something with at least a large copper plate on the bottom (not
just a small copper insert), or all-copper, that takes an 80mm fan.
Often, if these coolers come with a fan it's louder than necessary,
geared towards overclocking, even excessive for many overclockers, so
the original fan (if one is included) can have it's RPM reduced by a
fan-speed controller or various modifications, or just buy the
preferred fan separate. Resist the urge to buy a cheap no-name
sleeve-bearing fan. Better fan makes include Nidec, Vantec, Papst,
Panaflo, NMB, Delta & Sunon (these last two in their dual-ball-bearing
models only), and others.

By using a higher-quality cooler with 80mm (25mm thick) fan you should
have adequate cooling with RPM of 1600-2500RPM... towards the higher
end for a case with lesser airflow and/or you want to overclock, or
the lower end if you're certain it's always getting good airflow in a
mild climate (like air-conditioned room).

As an example,

For ~$40 USD:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/thslsoco.html



Plus either of these fan:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/pan80.html
http://www.svcompucycle.com/vantec.html

For ~$25
http://www.svcompucycle.com/thsibo.html

For an entire line of heatsinks to consider, you might look at
Thermalright... anything large enough to take an 80mm fan should be
enough for an XP2700. I think their lowest-end models that meet this
standard are the AX-7 and SK-7, then there's the SLK-700, SLK-800,
900, 900U, 900A, etc, etc.

What about this one?
http://www.svcompucycle.com/zaulqucpuco.html

I'm most concerned that the 'drive in' store, PC World (www.pcworld.co.uk)
doesn't have much, and if I buy on-line I might get it wrong and be unable
to send it back...
 
K

kony


That should work too, but my two primary concerns about it are:

1) Non-standard fan, hard if not impossible to replace if it fails or
you wanted a different fan.

2) It's large diameter might prevent it from working on your
motherboard due to it's CPU socket location. I would expect that
cooler will extend above the top of your board, toward the power
supply. Also those capacitors on your board to the left of the socket
might be too tall... there is a diagram at that link you gave, could
be used to measure your board and distance to the power supply.
I'm most concerned that the 'drive in' store, PC World (www.pcworld.co.uk)
doesn't have much, and if I buy on-line I might get it wrong and be unable
to send it back...

I just followed that pcworld link and didn't see anything particularly
good, but I'm not familiar with all those brands' models either and
their pictures leave a lot to be desired.


Dave
 
S

S.Boardman

OK, I've just been to PCWorld today, and it's a pile of sh!te in there.
How about this place, with another Zalman product?

http://www.quietpc.com/uk/cpucool2.php

It's at the bottom of the page, Zalman CNPS6000-cu
I know the fan is non standard. Ever tried it ? *grin*

They also do a northbridge cooler
http://www.quietpc.com/uk/vgamb.php#mb
Will this be too big? Hang on...
The chipset fan at the moment measures 45mm. As I have just measured it, I
can also tell you that my cpu current hs/fan (measuring 60mm) is 20mm away
from the psu, and the mboard is about 10mm away.

Another site for you to look at is www.dabs.com They have lots to choose
from but not Zalman ones?

Please just find me one, preferably in one of these two sites. I have to go
to Paris on very soon, and I'd love to have it done before I go. I've
checked the BIOS update and it will currently support 3000+ when flashed.
However, I don't want to attempt to update it until I have the fan changed!
Please could you have a look at the sites?

Thanks - it's doing my head in!
 
S

S.Boardman

S.Boardman said:
OK, I've just been to PCWorld today, and it's a pile of sh!te in there.
How about this place, with another Zalman product?

http://www.quietpc.com/uk/cpucool2.php

It's at the bottom of the page, Zalman CNPS6000-cu
I know the fan is non standard. Ever tried it ? *grin*

They also do a northbridge cooler
http://www.quietpc.com/uk/vgamb.php#mb
Will this be too big? Hang on...
The chipset fan at the moment measures 45mm. As I have just measured it, I
can also tell you that my cpu current hs/fan (measuring 60mm) is 20mm away
from the psu, and the mboard is about 10mm away.

Another site for you to look at is www.dabs.com They have lots to choose
from but not Zalman ones?

Please just find me one, preferably in one of these two sites. I have to go
to Paris on very soon, and I'd love to have it done before I go. I've
checked the BIOS update and it will currently support 3000+ when flashed.
However, I don't want to attempt to update it until I have the fan changed!
Please could you have a look at the sites?

Thanks - it's doing my head in!

Ok forget the Zalman 6000 one above, just checked the diagram and it won't
fit. What about the one above it on the same page? Nexus KCZ-2700LS Nickel
Plated AMD Cooler? It covers up to XP2800+, although I'd be happier if it
did 3000+.
Thanks, as usual.
 
K

kony

OK, I've just been to PCWorld today, and it's a pile of sh!te in there.
How about this place, with another Zalman product?

http://www.quietpc.com/uk/cpucool2.php

It's at the bottom of the page, Zalman CNPS6000-cu
I know the fan is non standard. Ever tried it ? *grin*

It's more hype than performance, other coolers can keep the CPU cooler
with same noise level so long as you don't choose a fan with high-RPM.
Even so if you're not overclocking it should work. I've not used one
but have looked them over once or twices, always saw higher temps
reported by their users.
They also do a northbridge cooler
http://www.quietpc.com/uk/vgamb.php#mb
Will this be too big? Hang on...
The chipset fan at the moment measures 45mm. As I have just measured it, I
can also tell you that my cpu current hs/fan (measuring 60mm) is 20mm away
from the psu, and the mboard is about 10mm away.

That northbridge cooler should fit. You'll just need to be sure
whichever CPU heatsink you choose doesn't extend downward that far.

It does sound like your power supply is a bit too close to use the
previously mentioned Zalman CNPS7000A-CU. Even if you get it in there
you still would have to drape the power supply ATX leads overtop of
it, and it has no easy way to mount a fan guard.

Another site for you to look at is www.dabs.com They have lots to choose
from but not Zalman ones?

Most walk-in stores carry the lower-end heatsinks only. Of course the
best of those are usually sufficient, but again would need a low-RPM
80mm fan to be quiet, and being the "best" they have, might have a
price-premium compared to online purchases... I almost always purchase
these types of items online, but then the US online vendors have such
good sale prices that it easily offsets the shipping cost if buying
more than one or two things.

Anyway, they do have the Thermaltake Silent Boost:
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/productView.htm?quicklinx=2RSQ

Please just find me one, preferably in one of these two sites. I have to go
to Paris on very soon, and I'd love to have it done before I go. I've
checked the BIOS update and it will currently support 3000+ when flashed.
However, I don't want to attempt to update it until I have the fan changed!
Please could you have a look at the sites?

Thanks - it's doing my head in!

I'd try the one I linked above, but it seems out of stock at the
moment... you could wait, order it, or a couple other choices:
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/productView.htm?quicklinx=2N2F

Maybe the following but I don't think it's as good as the other 2:
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/productView.htm?quicklinx=2PD6
 
S

S.Boardman

snip!
Anyway, they do have the Thermaltake Silent Boost:
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/product
View.htm?quicklinx=2RSQ

I'd try the one I linked above, but it seems out of stock at the
moment... you could wait, order it, or a couple other choices:
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/product
View.htm?quicklinx=2N2F

Maybe the following but I don't think it's as good as the other 2:
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/product
View.htm?quicklinx=2PD6

OK, I'm looking at the http://www.quietpc.com/uk/vgamb.php northbridge
heatsink and either the Silent Boost K7 or the Volcano 11 Xaser. Both of
these are 80mm and so should fit... I'll have a look around and see if I can
get the Silent Boost, otherwise, I'll go for the Volcano.
About the Northbridge one... (looking at your pic / my mb), the black bits
in the corners are 'pushpins'? How do you get them out? Do you have to take
the motherboard out?
Thanks again.
 
S

S.Boardman

S.Boardman said:
snip!

http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/product to
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/product
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/components/modificationandcoolingkit/product
View.htm?quicklinx=2PD6

OK, I'm looking at the http://www.quietpc.com/uk/vgamb.php northbridge
heatsink and either the Silent Boost K7 or the Volcano 11 Xaser. Both of
these are 80mm and so should fit... I'll have a look around and see if I can
get the Silent Boost, otherwise, I'll go for the Volcano.
About the Northbridge one... (looking at your pic / my mb), the black bits
in the corners are 'pushpins'? How do you get them out? Do you have to take
the motherboard out?
Thanks again.
--
Sorry to reply to myself again, I have found www.overclock.co.uk, and they
stock the Volcano 11, but I'll have to wait for the northbridge h/s. I'll
probably get a XP2800+ Barton chip too.
Another question my chipset fan is 45mm square, but the new heatsink is only
37mm square? Shouldn't they be the same? Also when putting on the thermal
compound, do you fit the chip and h/s together, or put the chip on the m/b
and then put compound and h/s?
Thanks :)
 
K

kony

Ok forget the Zalman 6000 one above, just checked the diagram and it won't
fit. What about the one above it on the same page? Nexus KCZ-2700LS Nickel
Plated AMD Cooler? It covers up to XP2800+, although I'd be happier if it
did 3000+.
Thanks, as usual.

It has a thin small fan, 60mm x 60mm x 15mm, not a good choice.

None of the coolers on that page are any good, they all have inferior
cooling ability. You're looking for a heatsink that most places would
consider being targeted towards overclockers, then using a lower-RPM
fan on it. This means it needs be very large (as large as will fit
on the board) and uses an 80x80x25mm fan. The larger fan moves far
more air at same noise level, so will run a lot quieter provided it's
on a heatsink adquately sized for an 80mm fan, not something smaller
with an adapter-type mount on top. Your motherboard has enough
space around the socket to fit a conventional near-square ~ 80x80
cooler.


Dave
 
K

kony

OK, I'm looking at the http://www.quietpc.com/uk/vgamb.php northbridge
heatsink and either the Silent Boost K7 or the Volcano 11 Xaser. Both of
these are 80mm and so should fit... I'll have a look around and see if I can
get the Silent Boost, otherwise, I'll go for the Volcano.
About the Northbridge one... (looking at your pic / my mb), the black bits
in the corners are 'pushpins'? How do you get them out? Do you have to take
the motherboard out?
Thanks again.

Yes, they're pushpins. Some pushpins have an inner "button" you can
depress to replease them, but in the picture those look more like the
basic type without a button-release.

You might find them slightly loose, that if you barely, gently,
wiggled as you pulled that they'd come out, but be careful. Otherwise
you'd just take (something) and cut through the pins, like wire
cutters. If you really want to save the pins, you would need to
remove the whole board to access them, assuming the motherboard tray
doesn't have a large opening in back of that region, which most don't.
It may be a lot easier to work on with the system case on it's side.


Dave
 
K

kony

Sorry to reply to myself again, I have found www.overclock.co.uk, and they
stock the Volcano 11, but I'll have to wait for the northbridge h/s. I'll
probably get a XP2800+ Barton chip too.
Another question my chipset fan is 45mm square, but the new heatsink is only
37mm square? Shouldn't they be the same? Also when putting on the thermal
compound, do you fit the chip and h/s together, or put the chip on the m/b
and then put compound and h/s?
Thanks :)

The new northbridge 'sink itself can be a different size, larger or
smaller, it'll be centered by the mounting holes and work fine.

I don't understand your alternatives for putting on the thermal
compound... just put a paper-thin layer on the raised center of the
CPU, before putting it in the socket, or afterwards, then install the
heatsink. The heatsink needs no thermal compound appiled to the
bottom of it, the paper-thin layer on the CPU is plenty and even most
of that will slightly squish out over time... in other words, whatever
temp you see after restarting the system, may easily drop a couple
more degrees after (up to a few days).

After first installing the CPU, heatsink, and starting the system, you
ought to go into the BIOS and check the "health monitor" section (or
whatever it's called) to check the CPU temp before proceeding to use
the system. If it's very high, like over 60C, immediately shut off
the system and double-check everything. I expect the actual temp to
be lower, but 60C was a suggestion above the expected temp as a
suggested sign that something may be wrong.

Odds are nothing will go wrong though, just take your time and it's
easy unless the heatsink clip is very stiff, in which case you need be
very careful to apply even pressure and not let the screwdriver slip
out (or finger slip off, whichever is applicable per the chosen
heatsink).


Dave
 
S

S.Boardman

kony said:
easy unless the heatsink clip is very stiff, in which case you need be
very careful to apply even pressure and not let the screwdriver slip
out (or finger slip off, whichever is applicable per the chosen
heatsink).
fingers crossed :-/

I'm going to order them now. If something goes wrong, I'll post a new thread
(I'm using another machine). It could be a while... hopefully the stuff will
arrive before I go away for a week.
Thanks again for your advice.
[By the way, I read Artic Silver's instructions, and they say you're
supposed to put it on the heatsink as well...]
 
S

S.Boardman

kony said:
Yes, they're pushpins. Some pushpins have an inner "button" you can
depress to replease them, but in the picture those look more like the
basic type without a button-release.

You might find them slightly loose, that if you barely, gently,
wiggled as you pulled that they'd come out, but be careful. Otherwise
you'd just take (something) and cut through the pins, like wire
cutters. If you really want to save the pins, you would need to
remove the whole board to access them, assuming the motherboard tray
doesn't have a large opening in back of that region, which most don't.
It may be a lot easier to work on with the system case on it's side.


Dave
No going back then once they're off! Don't know if I've got any wirecutters
:)
 

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