External Hard Drive used for System Backup.

[Bill in Co.]

You're once again mixing up terms. "Imaging" and "cloning" are two
different processes with two different results.

One cannot "Image" a drive and then "reclone" it back. One can image
a drive and then "restore" the drive from that image.

Reading 101?? I suggested imaging might be better. Nowhere did I say
"reclone an image" back. I *did* say that imagining might be better than
recloning it (a cloned copy, obviously) back.

 

[Anna]

If that's the case (and his intent) he could either do that, or use
imaging, I'd think, right?
In fact, wouldn't this perhaps be a better case for imaging, since he
wants to reclone it back anyways?

Bill (and James)...
Yes, in this case because of the multiple operating systems involved it
probably would be better to use the disk-imaging process rather than the
disk-cloning process. Generally speaking there's no problem using Casper
(and presumably other disk-cloning) programs to accommodate (backup) clones
of different operating systems onto an external USB HDD as James wants to
do, but there is a problem with the restoration (re:cloning back to an
internal HDD) process involving these multiple OSs (at least with respect to
the Casper program). I'm planning to provide more details about this in a
forthcoming response to James's query. There is, however, a workaround in
Casper to overcome this problem but it's a bit tortuous as I will later
explain.

As a general proposition we recommend using disk-imaging programs where
multiple operating systems are involved or the user is interested in
maintaining "generational" copies of his/her single system.
Anna

 

[Unknown]

Visit cmsproducts.com and see if they have what you want.

 

[Anna]

Hello Anna,

Thank you so much for responding to my question. Also thank you for
responding so quickly. I didn't expect to hear from you until some time
next
week at best. I am glad I clicked the box to be notified when there is as
response. I guess I tried to shorten my question too much. I was going to
write some of the things you asked me, but I was trying to keep the
question
short. Sorry about that.

You are correct. I want to backup files on each drive along with the
operating systems and all three drives are bootable. I want to be able to
use
the backups to fix each bootable drive should I have a problem.

Here is what I have:

1- Laptop; IDE HD 1st partition C: Vista Home op. 139 GB drive with 93.4
GB
free
2nd partition D: system restore files 9.73
GB with 3 GB free

1- Dual booting Desktop Computer
1st drive 1st partition IDE HD C: XP Sp2 Home op. 69.5 GB with 58.5 GB
free
1st drive 2nd partition D: system restore files 5.00 GB with 538 MB
free.
2nd drive only partition IDE HD E: Vista Home op. 74.5 GB drive with
53.4
GB free

One USB External 320 GB Simple Tech drive. I partitioned this drive into 3
drives as follows: 1st 149 GB, 2nd 74.5 GB & 3rd 74.5 GB

Anna; I am not interested in backing up the system restore partitions
because I do have the CD discs to restore my system. Plus if I can clone
the
drives I will not need the system restore files anymore.

I hope I am giving you enough info this time. If not please let me know
what else you need and I will be happy to give you the information. Thanks
again for your help. I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate it.

Best regards,
James

James:
With respect to XP there *is* a problem involving the restoration process
when using Casper 4 to clone multiple XP operating systems to a
multi-partitioned "destination" drive, such as a USBEHD. You probably saw my
last post re this issue, as follows...

"(B)ecause of the multiple operating systems involved it probably would be
better to use the disk-imaging process rather than the disk-cloning process.
Generally speaking there's no problem using Casper (and presumably other
disk-cloning) programs to accommodate (backup) clones of different operating
systems onto an external USB HDD as James wants to do, but there is a
problem with the restoration (re:cloning back to an internal HDD) process
involving these multiple OSs (at least with respect to the Casper program).
I'm planning to provide more details about this in a forthcoming response to
James's query. There is, however, a workaround in Casper to overcome this
problem but it's a bit tortuous as I will later explain.

As a general proposition we recommend using disk-imaging programs where
multiple operating systems are involved or the user is interested in
maintaining "generational" copies of his/her single system.

Again, with respect to Casper, while there's *no* problem insofar as the
disk-cloning process from the "source" HDDs to the multi-partitioned
"destination" USBEHD is concerned, there is a problem if & when the need
arises to "re:clone" the contents of the data (including the operating
system) of a particular partition of the USBEHD for the purpose of restoring
the system on an internal HDD, i.e., so that the system will be bootable &
functional. Keep in mind we're talking about the XP OS here and *not* Vista.

Actually, given your particular situation as you've described it, there is
*no* problem along the lines I've indicated in the paragraph above.

1. Using Disk Management you could set up your USBEHD with five partitions
(the 4th & 5th partitions being logical drives within an extended
partition), as follows (the size of each partition is approximate)...
Partition #1 - 75 GB
Partition #2 - 5 GB
Partition #3 - 78 GB
Partition #4 - 130 GB
Partition #5 - 10 GB
Total 298 GB (320 GB disk)

1. You would clone the contents of the 1st partition of the HDD containing
the desktop PC's XP system to the 1st USBEHD partition, and the 2nd
partition of that HDD to the 2nd USBEHD partition. I would recommend cloning
the contents of the recovery partition notwithstanding the fact that you
have the recovery CD.

2. The contents of the partition on the desktop's PC HDD containing the
Vista Home system would be cloned to the 3rd partition of the USBEHD.

3. The laptop's Vista system would be cloned to the 4th partition of the
USBEHD and the recovery partition associated with that Vista system would be
cloned to the 5th partition of the USBEHD.

(Cloning individual partitions is quite easy to do with Casper since all you
have to select is the option "Copy a specific drive" at the beginning of the
disk-cloning process.)

So the above disk-cloning processes should work with your setups both for
backups involving the cloned data and restoration (re:cloning) should that
become necessary.

Actually there is a workaround re the restoration problem involving multiple
cloned XP systems referred to above. While the problem can be overcome it's
rather awkward to undertake and I'm not sure I'm comfortable recommending
it for the general user. (See below).

The problem with respect to XP occurs when one plans to use a HDD (internal
or external) as the "destination' drive, i.e., the recipient of the clone,
for multiple instances of different XP operating systems. In general users
do this to hold "generational" copies of their systems at different points
in time. So, for example, a user might divide his/her destination HDD into
multiple partitions, each partition sufficient in size to hold a cloned copy
of the XP system as of a certain date.

The problem occurs if & when the user wants to restore (re:clone) the system
residing on a particular partition of the destination HDD. If the cloned
contents reside on the *first* partition of the HDD, there's no problem. But
if the cloned contents that the user desires to restore reside on any
*subsequent* partition of the destination HDD and those contents are the
ones the user wants to be re:cloned back to the internal HDD for restoration
purposes, the boot fails. A Windows message appears during the boot to the
effect that "Windows could not start because of a computer disk hardware
configuration problem (etc., etc)."

So now you would have the cloned contents of all your drives/systems
residing on the USBEHD. All the data from your three systems have been
copied over to the USBEHD and are accessible. That's the good news.

But there is a problem concerning the restoration process should that be
needed at some future date.

So, to summarize (and please understand this "problem" we've been discussing
applies to XP and not Vista - at least based on the limited experience we've
had with Vista systems) ...

1. Should the cloned contents of the "source" drive reside on the *first*
partition of a multi-partitioned "destination" drive (internal or external),
there's *no* problem cloning back those contents to an internal HDD for
restoration purposes. The resultant clone on the internal HDD will be
bootable & functional; no different from any typical successful
disk-cloning operation undertaken by Casper.

2. But should the cloned contents (of a bootable XP system) of the "source"
drive reside on any other partition of a multi-partitioned "destination"
drive there will be a problem in that the partition-cloning process back to
an internal HDD for restoration purposes will *not* result in a bootable HDD
as described above.

As I've indicated, we have found a "workaround" to achieve a bootable,
functional system should this problem arise, however, it does involve
accessing XP's Recovery Console (normally through the XP installation CD)
and invoking the "bootcfg /rebuild" command. The system will then boot and a
slight modification of the boot.ini is subsequently made. Not a particularly
difficult process, but awkward at best.

(BTW, we understand the developers of Casper are aware of this problem and
hopefully will resolve it with the next upgrade of the program.)

In any event, we generally recommend users to employ a disk-imaging program,
e.g., Acronis, Ghost, etc., rather than a disk-cloning program such as
Casper when their primary interest is in establishing/maintaining
comprehensive backup copies of their multi-generational systems or different
systems.
Anna

 

[Flyerfan27]

Hello Anna,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I just saw this latest reply
posting you wrote for me. I don’t know how to get these news groups in my
mail client so I read them on the Microsoft Web page. I just noticed the
responses are not in any particular order that make sense. I kept looking for
the detailed explanation you said was forth coming later in this topic after
that last posting you wrote. It turned out that this reply is before your
last one in this topic and I just came upon it now by luck.

Anyway thank you so much for the detailed explanation you wrote on how to
do a multiple system backup to one USBEHD using Casper 4, when XP is
involved. That must have taken you some time to write all that. I really
appreciate the time you took. I hope you get a kick back for every time
someone buys the Casper 4 software after they have chatted with you. You are
the reason I am going to buy it. I can’t thank you enough!

Before I go ahead and buy Casper 4.0 I just want to clarify one thing with
you. Sorry for being a pain. I do not have an XP disc because it is part of
the system discs that came with my computer so I can’t do the round about you
mention. In reading your explanation it is my understanding I won’t need to
do the round about as long as I clone XP on the first partition on the
USBEHD. Then when I clone it back, if need be, to an internal hard drive I
won’t have a problem as long as I clone it back to the first partition on the
internal hard drive. Do I understand that correctly? If I follow the above I
will be fine with Casper 4?

Anna; thanks again for your help, I deeply appreciate it. I am sorry for
taking so long to write you back. I just did not realize the replies were not
in any order that I can see. I promise after this last question I will not
bother you about this subject anymore.

Best regards,
James



:

 

[Anna]

Hello Anna,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I just saw this latest reply
posting you wrote for me. I don't know how to get these news groups in my
mail client so I read them on the Microsoft Web page. I just noticed the
responses are not in any particular order that make sense. I kept looking
for
the detailed explanation you said was forth coming later in this topic
after
that last posting you wrote. It turned out that this reply is before your
last one in this topic and I just came upon it now by luck.

Anyway thank you so much for the detailed explanation you wrote on how to
do a multiple system backup to one USBEHD using Casper 4, when XP is
involved. That must have taken you some time to write all that. I really
appreciate the time you took. I hope you get a kick back for every time
someone buys the Casper 4 software after they have chatted with you. You
are
the reason I am going to buy it. I can't thank you enough!

Before I go ahead and buy Casper 4.0 I just want to clarify one thing with
you. Sorry for being a pain. I do not have an XP disc because it is part
of
the system discs that came with my computer so I can't do the round about
you
mention. In reading your explanation it is my understanding I won't need
to
do the round about as long as I clone XP on the first partition on the
USBEHD. Then when I clone it back, if need be, to an internal hard drive I
won't have a problem as long as I clone it back to the first partition on
the
internal hard drive. Do I understand that correctly? If I follow the above
I
will be fine with Casper 4?

Anna; thanks again for your help, I deeply appreciate it. I am sorry for
taking so long to write you back. I just did not realize the replies were
not
in any order that I can see. I promise after this last question I will not
bother you about this subject anymore.

Best regards,
James

James:
Well, you have it *nearly* correct...

The crucial point is that for backup purposes you should clone the contents
of your XP system (on your internal HDD) to the first partition of your
multi-partitioned USBEHD as you have indicated. But it's *not* important to
which partition on your *internal* HDD (for restoration/recovery purposes)
that you clone back the contents of the USBEHD should that need arise. I
hope I've made that clear. Now, of course, it may be important for you to
clone back the contents of the XP system residing on the USBEHD to the first
partition of your internal HDD because you're involved with a multi-boot
configuration on that disk, and that configuration may demand that the XP OS
be on the first partition of your internal booting HDD, but that would be
another matter. It would have nothing to do with the Casper problem I had
mentioned. Again, the crucial thing is - for backup purposes - clone the XP
system to the first partition of your multi-partitioned USBEHD.

I'm sure you're going to be happy with the Casper 4 program. When you
purchase the program don't neglect to also purchase the "Startup Disk".
Unfortunately it's a $9.95 extra cost. And to make matters worse it comes as
a downloadable .iso image so you need to burn the image to a CD in order to
have a functional "startup disk". It's too bad Casper hasn't used the same
process as Acronis where the startup CD for that program can be easily
created right from the program - either during the program's installation or
anytime thereafter. I've complained to Casper (fss.dev) about this,
especially since the cost of the basic program is $49.99, but so far to no
avail. But alas, the program is so good that in my view, it's worth
swallowing the additional cost to create the startup disk.
Anna

 

[Flyerfan27]

Hello Anna,

Thank you for clearing up that last hurdle for me. I am sure I have it
right now. You are so nice and patient I can't thank you enough. Also thank
you for the tip about the "Startup Disc". I don't know which posting I got it
from, but I was under the impression you could make the disc from the
program. I guess it was from that you have to make the disc from the
download. I must of mistaking that as being from the program. I am really
glad you made this point clear. I do know enough to know you need the startup
disc in order to clone the backup to an empty internal drive.

A good cloning program is worth the money you speak of; especially if you
need to use it. That makes the program priceless. I know I spent at least 3
times that trying to find the right backup program. I thought I was good with
Norton Ghost 9.0, but Vista sent that to the scrap heap!

I do want to mention the latest program I tried in case anyone is
interested in other backup software. It is called TotalMedia Backup & Record;
made by Fabrik Backup Solutions. This is an imaging program that is also
supposed to be able to make System CDs or DVDs of your computer as it is
setup by the owner. I tried the imaging part of the software in both Vista &
XP. In both operating systems I received errors making the images. I would
not recommend this software for that.

As for the System disc part of the software I could not use it. On my
desktop computer I only have a DVD player and a CD writer. The system hard
drive is small enough to make the system disc on DVDs, but not CDs. It would
have taken 15 CDs to make the backup and I just don’t trust having to count
on that many CDs. Now my Laptop has the DVD writer, but the system hard drive
is much bigger on this computer. It would have taken 14 DVD’s to backup my
laptop. Besides the time that would have taken; again I do not want to trust
that many Discs. BTW; the software is not setup to use a Network for coping
as of the copy I have. I found this out from their tech support when I wrote
them asking if I could use my Laptop DVD writer to make the system discs for
my Desktop Computer.

This software does have other uses too, but I was only interested in the 2
I mention. I hope this helps if anyone was considering try this software.

Anna; Thanks again! You are truly a wonderful person to help out so much. I
can’t thank you enough and I am extremely appreciative.

Take care,
James

 

[Flyerfan27]

Hello Anna,

I am very sorry to bother you again. I know I said I would not, but I have
one more question. Yesterday was the first chance I had to try out the Casper
4.0 cloning software. I am using the free trial version because I want to
make sure I can get it to work first. It seems real easy to use and
everything, but I am having a problem. I cloned one of my internal hard
drives to the USBEHD and the drives did not match in disk space used. The
hard drive I copied is using 14.7 GB and the HD I copied to says it is only
using 7.05 GB. I tried cloning from one internal hard drive to another and
the same thing happen. I even tried in “Safe Mode†and it still happens.
Each time Casper gives me a message saying it was copied successfully. My
thought is that Casper is compressing the files, but I can’t find out how to
turn the compression off. I don’t want any of the files compressed. Do I have
to buy the software to stop this from happening? If that is all it is I am
ready to buy. I just want to make sure I can get past this problem before I
buy the software.

Thanks,
James

 

[Timothy Daniels]

...Yesterday was the first chance I had to try out the Casper
4.0 cloning software. I am using the free trial version [.....]
I cloned one of my internal hard drives to the USBEHD and
the drives did not match in disk space used. The hard drive I
copied is using 14.7 GB and the HD I copied to says it is only
using 7.05 GB. I tried cloning from one internal hard drive to
another and the same thing happen. I even tried in "Safe Mode"
and it still happens. Each time Casper gives me a message
saying it was copied successfully. My thought is that Casper is
compressing the files, but I can't find out how to turn the
compression off. I don't want any of the files compressed...

Did you by chance do an imaging instead of a cloning?
The 2-to-1 compression ratio is about right for an image file.
Can you read document files in the "clone" as they are? That
would indicate that they are not compressed, and the copy is
indeed a clone. If that is the case, the difference in "used" size
might be due to Casper just copying.sectors which actually
contain data and ignoring those that don't.

*TimDaniels"

 

[James]

Hi Tim,

I don't think I did an imagining of the drive. I followed the instructions
as Anna gave them to me. The software is quite simple to use. I clicked on
"Copy a specific drive" like I was told to do. A window comes up where you
pick the drive you want to copy. After you pick the drive you want to copy
another window comes up with the drives that you have that can handle the
copy. After you pick where to copy the drive you just confirm the process
and off it goes. I can't even find something that will let you pick your
preferences. So I am wondering if you need the full version to complete what
I want. If that is all it is it is fine with me. I want to buy the software
if it will work for me. You really can't beat how easy it is to use.

Thanks for your response, James

...Yesterday was the first chance I had to try out the Casper
4.0 cloning software. I am using the free trial version [.....]
I cloned one of my internal hard drives to the USBEHD and
the drives did not match in disk space used. The hard drive I
copied is using 14.7 GB and the HD I copied to says it is only
using 7.05 GB. I tried cloning from one internal hard drive to
another and the same thing happen. I even tried in "Safe Mode"
and it still happens. Each time Casper gives me a message
saying it was copied successfully. My thought is that Casper is
compressing the files, but I can't find out how to turn the
compression off. I don't want any of the files compressed...

Did you by chance do an imaging instead of a cloning?
The 2-to-1 compression ratio is about right for an image file.
Can you read document files in the "clone" as they are? That
would indicate that they are not compressed, and the copy is
indeed a clone. If that is the case, the difference in "used" size
might be due to Casper just copying.sectors which actually
contain data and ignoring those that don't.

*TimDaniels"

 

[James]

Tim,

I forgot in my last message to mention that I can see the files on the
drive I copied to just like they appear on the drive I copied in Windows
Explorer. When you do an imagine doesn't it usually compact everything into
fewer files and you can't see the files unless you use an explorer that came
with the software? I know that is how Ghost 9.0 worked.

Thanks,
James

...Yesterday was the first chance I had to try out the Casper
4.0 cloning software. I am using the free trial version [.....]
I cloned one of my internal hard drives to the USBEHD and
the drives did not match in disk space used. The hard drive I
copied is using 14.7 GB and the HD I copied to says it is only
using 7.05 GB. I tried cloning from one internal hard drive to
another and the same thing happen. I even tried in "Safe Mode"
and it still happens. Each time Casper gives me a message
saying it was copied successfully. My thought is that Casper is
compressing the files, but I can't find out how to turn the
compression off. I don't want any of the files compressed...

Did you by chance do an imaging instead of a cloning?
The 2-to-1 compression ratio is about right for an image file.
Can you read document files in the "clone" as they are? That
would indicate that they are not compressed, and the copy is
indeed a clone. If that is the case, the difference in "used" size
might be due to Casper just copying.sectors which actually
contain data and ignoring those that don't.

*TimDaniels"

 

[Anna]

Hello Anna,

I am very sorry to bother you again. I know I said I would not, but I have
one more question. Yesterday was the first chance I had to try out the
Casper
4.0 cloning software. I am using the free trial version because I want to
make sure I can get it to work first. It seems real easy to use and
everything, but I am having a problem. I cloned one of my internal hard
drives to the USBEHD and the drives did not match in disk space used. The
hard drive I copied is using 14.7 GB and the HD I copied to says it is
only
using 7.05 GB. I tried cloning from one internal hard drive to another and
the same thing happen. I even tried in "Safe Mode" and it still happens.
Each time Casper gives me a message saying it was copied successfully. My
thought is that Casper is compressing the files, but I can't find out how
to
turn the compression off. I don't want any of the files compressed. Do I
have
to buy the software to stop this from happening? If that is all it is I am
ready to buy. I just want to make sure I can get past this problem before
I
buy the software.

Thanks,
James

James:
There's absolutely no problem here. It is true that Casper 4 does do some
manipulation of system data during the disk cloning process that results in
a difference (even a substantial difference!) between the total data (in
bytes) on the source HDD and the resultant total data (in bytes) on the
destination drive (the recipient of the clone).

HOWEVER,

This compression of data neither affects your user-created data nor your
program files (applications). If you would compare the folders/files data on
an item-by-item basis between the source & destination disks you would find
them identical in all respects - in terms of number of bytes and actual
data. There's simply no difference between the two.

So have no fear that your data/programs have been changed in any material
way through some compression process that might cause future problems.

All I can tell you is that in the nearly two years that we've been using the
Casper 4 disk-cloning program in which I've personally used the program or
otherwise participated with others in Casper 4 disk-cloning operations
involving the XP OS - numbering hundreds & hundreds of these operations, I
can't recall a single instance - not a single instance - where corruption of
data resulted from the disk-cloning operation.
Anna

 

[James]

Hello Anna,

Thank you so much for replying to this last question. I just wanted to
contact you to make sure I was using Casper 4.0 right and that I was not
doing anything wrong. I needed to make sure the drive I copied to would do
the trick because I plan on doing a few things, like try sp3 and setup a
dual boot with Vista. So I wanted to make sure the backup would work when I
need it. Yes! I said when and not IF. lol

Anna; I just want to tell you that I listen to everything you say and total
trust you. I want you to know I am truly thankful for all the help you have
given me. I really appreciate how patient you have been too. Like I said
before you are a wonderful person.

Well I am off to buy Casper 4.0. I hope you are enjoying the weekend.

Thanks again,
James