Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again


N

Nehmo

Not so long ago, I posted about a problem I had with the hard drive:
http://snipurl.com/1q4s3, another thread at http://snipurl.com/1q4sz
Everything was hesitating or stuttering. I cloned the drive and
replaced it, because the SMART results indicated it was going bad ("C5
Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 19 OK: Always passing"). The
drive replacement solved the problem until today.

It seems I'm having the same problem - the same symptoms - with this
new drive. I haven't done much to fix it yet. I'm defraging now to see
if that helps. Below are the current SMART results.

Is the new drive bad too? Any ideas? Ron, I hope you're out there :)

Device Description
WDC WD800BEVE-11UYT0 (WD-WXH607044547)

ID Attribute Description Threshold Value Worst Data Status
01 Raw Read Error Rate 51 200 200 7 OK: Value is normal
03 Spin Up Time 21 189 188 1516 OK: Value is normal
04 Start/Stop Count 0 100 100 103 OK: Always passing
05 Reallocated Sector Count 140 200 200 0 OK: Value is normal
07 Seek Error Rate 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
09 Power-On Time Count 0 100 100 373 OK: Always passing
0A Spin Retry Count 51 100 100 0 OK: Value is normal
0B Calibration Retry Count 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 92 OK: Always passing
C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 200 200 7 OK: Always passing
C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 197 197 10827 OK: Always passing
C2 Temperature 0 97 90 50 OK: Always passing
C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count 0 100 253 0 OK: Always passing
C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C8 Write Error Rate 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
 
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J

JAD

Nehmo said:
Not so long ago, I posted about a problem I had with the hard drive:
http://snipurl.com/1q4s3, another thread at http://snipurl.com/1q4sz
Everything was hesitating or stuttering. I cloned the drive and
replaced it, because the SMART results indicated it was going bad ("C5
Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 19 OK: Always passing"). The
drive replacement solved the problem until today.

It seems I'm having the same problem - the same symptoms - with this
new drive. I haven't done much to fix it yet. I'm defraging now to see
if that helps. Below are the current SMART results.

Is the new drive bad too? Any ideas? Ron, I hope you're out there :)

Device Description
WDC WD800BEVE-11UYT0 (WD-WXH607044547)

ID Attribute Description Threshold Value Worst Data Status
01 Raw Read Error Rate 51 200 200 7 OK: Value is normal
03 Spin Up Time 21 189 188 1516 OK: Value is normal
04 Start/Stop Count 0 100 100 103 OK: Always passing
05 Reallocated Sector Count 140 200 200 0 OK: Value is normal
07 Seek Error Rate 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
09 Power-On Time Count 0 100 100 373 OK: Always passing
0A Spin Retry Count 51 100 100 0 OK: Value is normal
0B Calibration Retry Count 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 92 OK: Always passing
C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 200 200 7 OK: Always passing
C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 197 197 10827 OK: Always passing
C2 Temperature 0 97 90 50 OK: Always passing
C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count 0 100 253 0 OK: Always passing
C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C8 Write Error Rate 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal

Check your 12v/5v rail voltages.
Are you using the same ribbon/sata cable?
Sata controller header 1 / 2 try swapping
IDE try the secondary.
 
N

Nehmo

Check your 12v/5v rail voltages.
Are you using the same ribbon/sata cable?
Sata controller header 1 / 2 try swapping
IDE try the secondary.

It's a laptop, Compaq Presario v2000 http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2580
.. I don't think there is a secondary.
Are you suggesting the voltage may be too high and that that is
burning out the drives?
Does the SMART data from the new drive look bad? It doesn't have the
suspicious ("C5
Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 19 OK: Always passing") item
that the old drive had.
 
J

JAD

Nehmo said:
It's a laptop, Compaq Presario v2000
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2580
OIC

. I don't think there is a secondary.
Are you suggesting the voltage may be too high and that that is
burning out the drives?

check the walwarts(power supply) output. I was thinking more like 'undervoltage'.
If yours will run without the battery, while plugged into the power supply, try that.



Does the SMART data from the new drive look bad? It doesn't have the
suspicious ("C5

many times this info is misleading. I do not rely soley on this diag.
 
A

Arno Wagner

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Nehmo said:
Not so long ago, I posted about a problem I had with the hard drive:
http://snipurl.com/1q4s3, another thread at http://snipurl.com/1q4sz
Everything was hesitating or stuttering. I cloned the drive and
replaced it, because the SMART results indicated it was going bad ("C5
Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 19 OK: Always passing"). The
drive replacement solved the problem until today.
It seems I'm having the same problem - the same symptoms - with this
new drive. I haven't done much to fix it yet. I'm defraging now to see
if that helps. Below are the current SMART results.
Is the new drive bad too? Any ideas? Ron, I hope you're out there :)
Device Description
WDC WD800BEVE-11UYT0 (WD-WXH607044547)
ID Attribute Description Threshold Value Worst Data Status
01 Raw Read Error Rate 51 200 200 7 OK: Value is normal
03 Spin Up Time 21 189 188 1516 OK: Value is normal
04 Start/Stop Count 0 100 100 103 OK: Always passing
05 Reallocated Sector Count 140 200 200 0 OK: Value is normal
07 Seek Error Rate 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
09 Power-On Time Count 0 100 100 373 OK: Always passing
0A Spin Retry Count 51 100 100 0 OK: Value is normal
0B Calibration Retry Count 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 92 OK: Always passing
C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 200 200 7 OK: Always passing
C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 197 197 10827 OK: Always passing
C2 Temperature 0 97 90 50 OK: Always passing

50C is rather hot. If it exceeds that it may get semoconductor malfunction
(such as decreased read amplifier performance) due to obverheating. The
"90" in the "worst" column indicates that it gets even hotter from time
to time.
C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count 0 100 253 0 OK: Always passing
C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
C8 Write Error Rate 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal


Ok, the nly suspicuous thing I find is the drive temperature.
While this is a 5400 rpm drive, this drive has a rather high idle
power consumption, using 2W.

That may be all there is to it.

Arno
 
N

Nehmo

50C is rather hot. If it exceeds that it may get semoconductor malfunction
(such as decreased read amplifier performance) due to obverheating. The
"90" in the "worst" column indicates that it gets even hotter from time
to time.


Ok, the nly suspicuous thing I find is the drive temperature.
While this is a 5400 rpm drive, this drive has a rather high idle
power consumption, using 2W.

That may be all there is to it.

Arno


What do you mean "all there is to it"? Why is the drive too hot, and
what should I do abut it?
 
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M

Mark

One way to possibly help rule out a heat problem is to put a cold
towel (ie, cooled in a refrig or freezer) under the notebook and see
if the problem persists
 
R

Rod Speed

Nehmo said:
Not so long ago, I posted about a problem I had with the hard drive:
http://snipurl.com/1q4s3, another thread at http://snipurl.com/1q4sz
Everything was hesitating or stuttering. I cloned the drive and replaced
it, because the SMART results indicated it was going bad
("C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 19 OK: Always passing").
The drive replacement solved the problem until today.
It seems I'm having the same problem - the same symptoms - with this new drive.

The SMART report is fine tho, so it looks like you had a
bad drive and the symptoms are due to something else.
I haven't done much to fix it yet. I'm defraging now to
see if that helps. Below are the current SMART results.
Is the new drive bad too?

Nope, that SMART report is fine.
Any ideas?

See below.
Ron, I hope you're out there :)

In here actually |-)
Device Description
WDC WD800BEVE-11UYT0 (WD-WXH607044547)
ID Attribute Description Threshold Value Worst Data Status
01 Raw Read Error Rate 51 200 200 7 OK: Value is normal
03 Spin Up Time 21 189 188 1516 OK: Value is normal
04 Start/Stop Count 0 100 100 103 OK: Always passing
05 Reallocated Sector Count 140 200 200 0 OK: Value is normal
07 Seek Error Rate 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
09 Power-On Time Count 0 100 100 373 OK: Always passing
0A Spin Retry Count 51 100 100 0 OK: Value is normal
0B Calibration Retry Count 51 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal
0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 92 OK: Always passing
C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 200 200 7 OK: Always passing
C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 197 197 10827 OK: Always passing
C2 Temperature 0 97 90 50 OK: Always passing

Thats rather high. Its showing 50C can that may well be the problem.

Thats poor drive cooling.
 
R

Rod Speed

What do you mean "all there is to it"?

That the only problem is that the drive is running at too high a temperature.
Why is the drive too hot,

Normally because its not getting enough cooling, enough airflow over the drive.
and what should I do abut it?

Work out why its not getting enough airflow over the drive.

See if the fan inside the laptop is clogged up with fur.

Make sure you arent blocking the air intakes for the laptop, it isnt hard with some
laptops, just putting it on a soft thing like a seat can do that with some laptops.

What room temperature were you seeing when you got that 50C drive temp ?
 
A

Arno Wagner

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Nehmo said:
What do you mean "all there is to it"? Why is the drive too hot, and
what should I do abut it?

Too much heat makes drives temporarily non-operational. In
the short run this is typically reversible.

What you probably should do about it, is get a drive that
consumes significantly less power. Or a laptop that has better
drive cooling. I don't know of any other options.

It may be that the coopling in your laptop is only adequate for
lower power 4200rpm drive model (not all of these are).

Also, in the long run (months...few years), heat may well
kill a drive.

Arno
 
N

Nehmo

That the only problem is that the drive is running at too high a temperature.


Normally because its not getting enough cooling, enough airflow over the drive.


Work out why its not getting enough airflow over the drive.

See if the fan inside the laptop is clogged up with fur.

Make sure you arent blocking the air intakes for the laptop, it isnt hard with some
laptops, just putting it on a soft thing like a seat can do that with some laptops.

What room temperature were you seeing when you got that 50C drive temp ?


The room temperature is normal, around 70 degrees F.
The drive specs seem to allow an operating temperature of 60 degrees
C, http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=102&language=en
I'm not blocking any vents.
The problem exists even when I start the computer. The Windows start-
sound is jerky. The temp when I last started was 46 degrees C.
I already opened the laptop looking for fur. I didn't find much. I'll
open it again, but the drive compartment is different from the area
cooled by the CPU fan.
About in the middle of this page http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2580
, you can see a pic of the CPU fan. The article notes that there is no
direct cooling for the HD. There is a PCMCIA slot above the HD, and
the article notes taking out the dummy card lowers the drive temp a
bit. I just did this, but I believe something is permanently damaged.
The last time this problem presented itself, when I wrote the previous
threads about a month ago, I solved the problem by replacing the
drive. It must be the same problem, but I don't understand what's
going on. Did the old drive, the one before the replacement, die from
being too hot? And now is the same thing happening to the new drive?
Should I replace this drive too?
 
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N

Nehmo

Too much heat makes drives temporarily non-operational. In
the short run this is typically reversible.

What you probably should do about it, is get a drive that
consumes significantly less power. Or a laptop that has better
drive cooling. I don't know of any other options.

It may be that the coopling in your laptop is only adequate for
lower power 4200rpm drive model (not all of these are).

Also, in the long run (months...few years), heat may well
kill a drive.

Arno

The new drive, the one currently in this laptop, has the faster spin
rate and does have a higher idle power consumption
The original HD was a Toshiba with these specs:
Nominal Power Requirements:
Logic +5V(±5%)
Start 4.7watts
Seeking 2.6watts
Reading/Writing 2.3watts
Idle 0.9watts
Standby 0.25watts
Sleep 0.1watts

The WD site is down now, but the idle was 2. watts. It has the faster
spin.

Since replacing the drive solved the problem the first time, I assume
it will solve it this time as well. When the computer hesitates or
interrupts it does so momentarily, and the drive light blinks on.

So you're saying I should only use a 4200 rpm HD?
 
N

Nehmo

The SMART report is fine tho, so it looks like you had a
bad drive and the symptoms are due to something else.

But previously when I changed the drive the symptoms disappeared -
right away, on the first boot.
The new drive has been in there for a month. Now the symptoms have
reappeared.
If the symptoms disappeared when the drive disappeared, it tends to
mean the drive caused the symptoms.
Nope, that SMART report is fine.


See below.


In here actually |-)


Thats rather high. Its showing 50C can that may well be the problem.

Thats poor drive cooling.

You're saying the drive is OK, yet is has poor cooling, and the
symptoms were somehow caused by something else?

As I said earlier, there is no direct cooling of the drive. So, yes,
the cooling must be poor. But I would assume it should be adequate
considering the large number of these laptops in use.

I don't see anything else to do except to replace the drive again. As
I said, I opened the CPU part, where there is a fan, and I didn't find
much fur. There's really nothing to look at in the drive compartment.
The only thing in there is the drive.
 
R

Rod Speed

The room temperature is normal, around 70 degrees F.
The drive specs seem to allow an operating temperature of 60 degrees
C, http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=102&language=en
I'm not blocking any vents.
The problem exists even when I start the computer. The Windows start-
sound is jerky. The temp when I last started was 46 degrees C.
I already opened the laptop looking for fur. I didn't find much. I'll
open it again, but the drive compartment is different from the area
cooled by the CPU fan.
About in the middle of this page
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2580 , you can see a
pic of the CPU fan. The article notes that there is no
direct cooling for the HD. There is a PCMCIA slot above the HD, and
the article notes taking out the dummy card lowers the drive temp a bit.

OK, it looks like its badly designed drive cooling wise.
I just did this, but I believe something is permanently damaged.
The last time this problem presented itself, when I wrote the previous
threads about a month ago, I solved the problem by replacing the
drive. It must be the same problem, but I don't understand what's
going on. Did the old drive, the one before the replacement, die from
being too hot? And now is the same thing happening to the new drive?

There is no evidence that the current drive is dying.

It looks like the symptom doesnt have anything to do with the drive.
Should I replace this drive too?

I wouldnt if it was mine, because the SMART report is fine.
 
R

Rod Speed

Nehmo said:
But previously when I changed the drive the symptoms disappeared -
right away, on the first boot.
The new drive has been in there for a month. Now the symptoms have
reappeared.
If the symptoms disappeared when the drive disappeared, it tends to
mean the drive caused the symptoms.

Yes, but the contraindication is that the SMART data is fine
now and wasnt before the previous drive replacement.

The symptoms you are seeing may be due to something outside
the drive and the act of physically replacing the drive may have
disturbed something physically, what was producing the symptom,
and which has now returned by itself since.
You're saying the drive is OK,
Yes.

yet is has poor cooling,
Yes.

and the symptoms were somehow caused by something else?

Yes, thats what it looks like.
As I said earlier, there is no direct cooling of the drive. So, yes,
the cooling must be poor. But I would assume it should be
adequate considering the large number of these laptops in use.

Thats not always the case. Some of the Dells had similarly poor drive
cooling, and the drive temps were right on the edge of what the hard
drive manufacturer allows, literally. Those laptops did have a much
higher hard drive failure rate than usual and Dell did improve the drive
cooling in later designs and the failure rate of the hard drives dropped
to normal levels when they did.
I don't see anything else to do except to replace the drive again.

I'd try physically removing it and replacing it, the same drive, to see if
its the mechanical disturbance that is causing the symptoms to go away.

There may be a dry joint or cracked trace on the motherboard etc.
As I said, I opened the CPU part, where there is a fan, and I didn't find much fur.

Yeah, it seems clear that its just poorly designed and the drive doesnt get enough cooling.
There's really nothing to look at in the drive compartment.
The only thing in there is the drive.

Sure. If the airflow is poor in there, you wont get a fur buildup there.
 
N

Nehmo

Yes, but the contraindication is that the SMART data is fine
now and wasnt before the previous drive replacement.

The symptoms you are seeing may be due to something outside
the drive and the act of physically replacing the drive may have
disturbed something physically, what was producing the symptom,
and which has now returned by itself since.

The drive in the laptop is still covered by warranty. I bought it form
Micro Center in Overland Park, Kansas, which has a 30 day return-
merchandise period (in addition to the term of any manufacture
warranty). But since I have to clone it to a new drive, I have to buy
the new one first, then clone, then wipe, and then return for a new
drive.

But should I not get one with a 5400 RPM? Should I get one with a low
idle power consumption?

I'll try removing the drive and then just putting it back in place.
Maybe the connector is defective. Or maybe something else is wrong, as
you suggested.

It's worth mentioning that the problem began both times when I was
watching a video. This is a operation that taxes the drive.

Also, the drive indicator light flicks on in-step with the stuttering
as it happens.


Actually, last time, you didn't like the Current Pending Sector Count,
but the SMART comment on that said passing. This time there's no
problem with the Current Pending Sector Count. I'm wondering if this
problem is a problem that doesn't show up in the SMART report.
Yes, thats what it looks like.

If the problem is caused by something other than the drive, I still
need to figure out what it is, unless it cures itself as it did before
when I replaced the drive.
Thats not always the case. Some of the Dells had similarly poor drive
cooling, and the drive temps were right on the edge of what the hard
drive manufacturer allows, literally. Those laptops did have a much
higher hard drive failure rate than usual and Dell did improve the drive
cooling in later designs and the failure rate of the hard drives dropped
to normal levels when they did.


I'd try physically removing it and replacing it, the same drive, to see if
its the mechanical disturbance that is causing the symptoms to go away.

There may be a dry joint or cracked trace on the motherboard etc.

I'll try removing-and-reinstalling the existing drive today. Assuming
the operation doesn't cure the problem, I'll replace the drive
tomorrow.
Yeah, it seems clear that its just poorly designed and the drive doesnt get enough cooling.


Sure. If the airflow is poor in there, you wont get a fur buildup there.

Thanks again.
 
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A

Arno Wagner

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Nehmo said:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storageNehmo<[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
The new drive, the one currently in this laptop, has the faster spin
rate and does have a higher idle power consumption
The original HD was a Toshiba with these specs:
Nominal Power Requirements:
Logic +5V(?5%)
Start 4.7watts
Seeking 2.6watts
Reading/Writing 2.3watts
Idle 0.9watts
Standby 0.25watts
Sleep 0.1watts
The WD site is down now, but the idle was 2. watts. It has the faster
spin.
Since replacing the drive solved the problem the first time, I assume
it will solve it this time as well. When the computer hesitates or
interrupts it does so momentarily, and the drive light blinks on.
So you're saying I should only use a 4200 rpm HD?

You should use one that matches or is below the original disk
in active and idle power consumption. There may be a 5400rmp
diskin the market or thater may not be. Also a 4200rpm disk
may consume too much power. You will need to look into datasheets.
If they do not give the information for a disk. it likely has a
pretty bad rating there.

Arno
 
J

JAD

Nehmo said:
The drive in the laptop is still covered by warranty. I bought it form
Micro Center in Overland Park, Kansas, which has a 30 day return-
merchandise period (in addition to the term of any manufacture
warranty). But since I have to clone it to a new drive, I have to buy
the new one first, then clone, then wipe, and then return for a new
drive.

But should I not get one with a 5400 RPM? Should I get one with a low
idle power consumption?

I'll try removing the drive and then just putting it back in place.
Maybe the connector is defective. Or maybe something else is wrong, as
you suggested.

It's worth mentioning that the problem began both times when I was
watching a video. This is a operation that taxes the drive.

Also, the drive indicator light flicks on in-step with the stuttering
as it happens.



Actually, last time, you didn't like the Current Pending Sector Count,
but the SMART comment on that said passing. This time there's no
problem with the Current Pending Sector Count. I'm wondering if this
problem is a problem that doesn't show up in the SMART report.


If the problem is caused by something other than the drive, I still
need to figure out what it is, unless it cures itself as it did before
when I replaced the drive.


I'll try removing-and-reinstalling the existing drive today. Assuming
the operation doesn't cure the problem, I'll replace the drive
tomorrow.

Thanks again.
How old is the laptop? Does it draw fresh air through the keyboard? There is a filter in
some laptops under the KB that may be blocked with lint and all kinds of nasty stuff.
 
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R

Rod Speed

The drive in the laptop is still covered by warranty.

No evidence that the drive has a problem so they may well refuse a warranty claim.

You should try the drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.
I bought it form Micro Center in Overland Park, Kansas, which has a 30
day return-merchandise period (in addition to the term of any manufacture
warranty). But since I have to clone it to a new drive, I have to buy the
new one first, then clone, then wipe, and then return for a new drive.

I wouldnt do that personally given that the drive appears to be fine.
But should I not get one with a 5400 RPM?
Should I get one with a low idle power consumption?

Yes, since its clear that the laptop doesnt cool the drive properly.
I'll try removing the drive and then just putting it back in place.
Maybe the connector is defective. Or maybe something else
is wrong, as you suggested.

Yeah, I think thats most likely. Classic dry joint/cracked trace type fault.
It's worth mentioning that the problem began both times when
I was watching a video. This is a operation that taxes the drive.
Also, the drive indicator light flicks on in-step with the stuttering as it happens.

Yeah, the fault is likely producing intermittent data flow from the drive.
Actually, last time, you didn't like the Current Pending Sector Count,

Yes, that drive was certainly dying. This one isnt.
but the SMART comment on that said passing.

I dont think I've ever seen that say anything else, even with a known bad drive.
This time there's no problem with the Current Pending Sector Count.
Correct.

I'm wondering if this problem is a problem that doesn't show up in the SMART report.

The SMART report is JUST about the hard drive. If the fault is
outside the hard drive, it wont have any effect on the SMART report.
If the problem is caused by something other than the
drive, I still need to figure out what it is, unless it cures
itself as it did before when I replaced the drive.

Sure, but thats not going to be easy if its a dry joint or cracked trace.
I'll try removing-and-reinstalling the existing drive today. Assuming
the operation doesn't cure the problem, I'll replace the drive tomorrow.
Thanks again.

No problem, happy to continue for as long as it takes.
 

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