Does Epson Stylus Photo 700 really do ICM at all?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Michael A. Covington
  • Start date Start date
What should be done about this?
Click to expand...

Well I have a Stylus Photo 1290, and have been experimenting with the
supplied profiles (e.g. Stylus Photo 1290 Photo Paper), selecting the
profile as the target in Photoshop's "print with preview", and the results
are utterly awful. The colours come out with a red cast and the shadow areas
are washed out. It leaves me wondering just what Epson were smoking when
they made these profiles.

On the other hand, selecting, "Generic CMYK Profile" gives me almost perfect
results. Go figure.
 
Chris Brown said:
Well I have a Stylus Photo 1290, and have been experimenting with the
supplied profiles (e.g. Stylus Photo 1290 Photo Paper), selecting the
profile as the target in Photoshop's "print with preview", and the results
are utterly awful. The colours come out with a red cast and the shadow areas
are washed out. It leaves me wondering just what Epson were smoking when
they made these profiles.

On the other hand, selecting, "Generic CMYK Profile" gives me almost perfect
results. Go figure.
Click to expand...

I'm all for "what works", but this is very odd, to be sure. If you are
actually converting to this profile, you are losing colors that your printer
can make. Not only that, but the driver has to re-convert the file back to
RGB before it can make the print...not the best idea.

Here is the one of the "the" web-links that really explains how this all
works in PS and in the Epson Drivers (this tutorial is good for both Macs
and XP machines, and Ian *knows* what he is talking about):

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps7_print/ps7_print_mac.htm

Review that, try what Ian suggests, and let me know how it works for you.
It really boils down the settings you use in these 3 steps:

Photoshop Proof: Profile, Intent, Paper White (on/off)

Photoshop Print with Preview: Source Space, Print Space, Intent

Epson Stylus Photo Driver: Color Management
 
It's there.
Click to expand...

This doesn't make much sense in light of what you had said previously:
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Understood. I have tried either one, both, and neither. Would you believe
the prints look the same all 4 ways? That's why I distrust Epson's ICM
profile. I think it's not doing anything.
Click to expand...
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Your "Either One" prints should have been different to your Both Off
print.

The only reason why they turned out to be the same is that NONE of the
color managements are working - not just Epson's ICM.

The only thing I can think of for now is that one or other of the
color profiles - Monitor or Printer is not loaded correctly and/or not
recognized by the operating system or PhotoShop - or one or other of
the profile is really a "NULL" profile - ie: pass-through/does Nothing
profile.........

This previously referenced article:
Out of Gamut: Color Management Made Stupid
By Bruce Fraser

http://www.creativepro.com/printerfriendly/story/2440.html

was using an Epson Stylus Photo EX which I believe is the same vintage
as the Epson Stylus Photo 700 (or older?) - so that would imply ICM
and color management worked for that author.......
 
Chris Brown said:
Well I have a Stylus Photo 1290, and have been experimenting with the
supplied profiles (e.g. Stylus Photo 1290 Photo Paper), selecting the
profile as the target in Photoshop's "print with preview", and the results
are utterly awful. The colours come out with a red cast and the shadow areas
are washed out. It leaves me wondering just what Epson were smoking when
they made these profiles.

On the other hand, selecting, "Generic CMYK Profile" gives me almost perfect
results. Go figure.
Click to expand...
Hi Chris,

the clue is to use the same settings in the printer driver that have
been used to produce the profile. Another problem is that the preview
window is not colormanaged.
I found a nice link regarding the recommanded setting for icc with
epson printers.

http://www.photoexpert.epson.co.uk/UK/EXPERTISE/how_to_icc_page1.htm

Winfried
 
Here is the one of the "the" web-links that really explains how this all
works in PS and in the Epson Drivers (this tutorial is good for both Macs
and XP machines, and Ian *knows* what he is talking about):

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps7_print/ps7_print_mac.htm

Review that, try what Ian suggests, and let me know how it works for you.
It really boils down the settings you use in these 3 steps:

Photoshop Proof: Profile, Intent, Paper White (on/off)

Photoshop Print with Preview: Source Space, Print Space, Intent

Epson Stylus Photo Driver: Color Management
Click to expand...

I'd been setting the "Print Space" to the Epson colour profile, as he does
in Figure 6, and getting prints where the colours are just plain wrong
(source is Adobe RGB). Might give the "Printer Color Management" thing a try
tonight to see how it compares. Hopefully it will give me better results
than using "Generic CMYK".
 
the clue is to use the same settings in the printer driver that have
been used to produce the profile. Another problem is that the preview
window is not colormanaged.
Click to expand...

Ah, I found the problem - the settings I was using were applying the profile
to the image *twice*, which resulted in the colours being all over the
place. A slight adjustment, and they look pretty much perfect.
 
Chris Brown said:
I'd been setting the "Print Space" to the Epson colour profile, as he does
in Figure 6, and getting prints where the colours are just plain wrong
(source is Adobe RGB). Might give the "Printer Color Management" thing a try
tonight to see how it compares. Hopefully it will give me better results
than using "Generic CMYK".
Click to expand...

If you are setting Print Space to a profile, make sure you have turned Color
Management to OFF in the driver ~ otherwise you are double color-managing
and will end up with the dreaded "Epson magenta cast."

BTW, pay no attention to the Epson driver preview, *unless* you are using
printer color management. That preview is not color managed, and has
absolutely no idea what Photoshop has done to the file *before* the driver
gets it.
 
See my other "success" posting. What I have to do is set the Print color
profile (in Photoshop) to "Same As Source" (not "Printer Color Management"
nor "Epson Stylus Photo 700").

Then I set the printer driver to "ICM" and I get decent color. Actually,
other printer driver settings probably work reasonably also.

This does not square with the instructions other people have posted
regarding Epson printers and Photoshop.
 
Michael A. Covington said:
See my other "success" posting. What I have to do is set the Print color
profile (in Photoshop) to "Same As Source" (not "Printer Color Management"
nor "Epson Stylus Photo 700").
Click to expand...

With a Souce Space>Document and a Print Space>Same as Source, Photoshop
color management is completely turned off so everything is being controlled
by the driver. With Souce Space>Profile and a Print Space>Same as Source ,
this setting tells Photoshop to convert the document to the profile space
and then send it to the driver, unchanged by another Print Space conversion.

What was intended by Adobe was to use Souce Space>Document and Print Space>
[your profile] for a Photoshop color managed workflow. Without an accurate
profile, however, this won't work well, if at all.
Then I set the printer driver to "ICM" and I get decent color. Actually,
other printer driver settings probably work reasonably also.
Click to expand...

What default ICM/ICC profile does it indicate it is using?
This does not square with the instructions other people have posted
regarding Epson printers and Photoshop.
Click to expand...

There are about a dozen ways of getting to the same place, but that does not
mean that they are all "correct." Ian Lyon's methodology *will* work, and
it is the manner in which Adobe intended.
 
If you are setting Print Space to a profile, make sure you have turned Color
Management to OFF in the driver ~ otherwise you are double color-managing
and will end up with the dreaded "Epson magenta cast."
Click to expand...

Yup, that turned out to be the problem, and the images were indeed magenta.
Can't say the supplied documentation was particularly helpful here.

I guess the reason CMYK profile was working was simply because the picture
was being converted to CMYK, then reprofiled by the printer driver anyway.
I usually work in Adobe RGB, and the conversion to CMYK did lose something,
but the difference isn't huge in print. Leaving it in Adobe RGB and setting
the target to "Printer Color Management" is producing results which look a
bit nicer. They are also now looking almost *exactly* like what I'm seeing
on the screen (which I spent some time recently calibrating - the monitor
calibration stuff in Mac OS 10.3 seems to be quite comprehensive).
 
What default ICM/ICC profile does it indicate it is using?
Click to expand...

There is no selection. In Printer Properties, there is one and only one ICM
profile associated with this printer.
There are about a dozen ways of getting to the same place, but that does not
mean that they are all "correct." Ian Lyon's methodology *will* work, and
it is the manner in which Adobe intended.
Click to expand...

I'll try it. Thanks.
 
I don't know what the printer driver actually do when you select ICM,
but I guess you don't need it ?
Click to expand...

Selecting ICM tells the printer driver to use the operating system to
convert the image data into the device space. Therefore, the printer
driver will call upon ColorSync in a Mac and ICM in Windows to do the
conversion into the designated profile. I believe on a Mac the
profile can be designated in the printer driver, but on Windows, the
designation is made in the Color Management tab for the printer in the
Printers Control Panel.
in fact, when you select "Printer Color Mangement" in Photoshop, you are in
fact telling the program to convert colors from the input color space to the
printer's color space (defined by the printer's default color profile) ? this
is a ICM conversion.
Click to expand...

This is not correct. "Printer Color Managment" tells Photoshop to
send the image data along with the source profile to the driver.
Photoshop does not convert the data. The driver does the conversion,
or the driver asks the operating system to do the conversion if "ICM"
is selected in the driver.
If you then select "Color management in the printer driver", you can make
further adjustments.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what "Color management in the printer driver" means but
to me that's the same as "Printer Color Management".
 
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