DMAX Question

A

Alan Smithee

"...Dmax has been raised to 4.0, which means better detail in shadows and
highlights..."

The above was a quote from a review of the Epson 4990 scanner. I understand
why a rise in DMAX would give better detail in the highlights (dense areas)
, but why is this true for the shadows (clear areas)? Or is the reviewer
full of it?
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Alan Smithee said:
"...Dmax has been raised to 4.0, which means better detail in shadows and
highlights..."

The above was a quote from a review of the Epson 4990 scanner. I understand
why a rise in DMAX would give better detail in the highlights (dense areas)
, but why is this true for the shadows (clear areas)? Or is the reviewer
full of it?
He is talking about the effect of the scanner Dmax on slides.

You appear to be considering negatives - so highlights come from dense
areas of the negative and shadows come from clear areas. The limited
density range of colour negatives means that the scanner Dmax has little
effect, if any, on either highlights or shadows of scans from negatives.
 
A

Alan Smithee

Kennedy said:
He is talking about the effect of the scanner Dmax on slides.

You appear to be considering negatives - so highlights come from dense
areas of the negative and shadows come from clear areas. The limited
density range of colour negatives means that the scanner Dmax has
little effect, if any, on either highlights or shadows of scans from
negatives.

OK say he IS talking about slides. What effect is this going to have on the
"highlight" areas of a slide. It seems the statement should be about one
type of film or the other and make a broad statement like that is wrong or
willfully ignorant on the reviewer's part.
Link to review:
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Epson 4990/Page 1.htm
 
L

Leonard Evens

Alan said:
OK say he IS talking about slides. What effect is this going to have on the
"highlight" areas of a slide. It seems the statement should be about one
type of film or the other and make a broad statement like that is wrong or
willfully ignorant on the reviewer's part.

The reviewer was assuming that users would be scanning slides. A very
high percentage of people who scan film do scan slides. So the few of
us who prefer color negative film or do black/white work have to read
these comments with a grain of salt.

The effect of a high dmax on highlights for slides (reversal film) is
indirect. You can give slightly more exposure and still be able to scan
the high densities in the shadows for such film. And you can do this
without sacrificing the highlights. However, most reversal film has
limited latitude in any case, so you do really need to get the exposure
right on, whether you are scanning or not. With negative film, you
have more latitude for overexposure. For reversal film, the
conventional advice is to err on the side of underexposure if you have
to err at all.
 
J

Jim

Alan Smithee said:
"...Dmax has been raised to 4.0, which means better detail in shadows and
highlights..."

The above was a quote from a review of the Epson 4990 scanner. I understand
why a rise in DMAX would give better detail in the highlights (dense areas)
, but why is this true for the shadows (clear areas)? Or is the reviewer
full of it?
It is clear that you are discussing negative film. The answer is that it
won't make any difference since the Dmax of the scanner is already much more
than the Dmax of the film.
Jim
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Alan Smithee said:
OK say he IS talking about slides. What effect is this going to have on the
"highlight" areas of a slide.

None at all when properly exposed, but it gives more latitude which can
result in less need for the exact exposure to avoid clipping the
highlights while bringing up all the detail in the shadows. I agree
that the wording is sloppy, but it isn't actually wrong.
 
G

gazza95

One point I was never 100% clear about is if Dmax refers to an absolute
density or simply the ratio of light to dark that can be resolved in a
scan. Thus a Dmax of 4.0 would be able to scan the theoretical range of
densities found in a slide it does not guarentee that the dark areas
would be scanned properly.

This is one of the reasons I prefer scanning negatives as I know my
scanner can cope with the range of densities found. If I scan slides I
lose a lot of detail from the shadow areas.

gary
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

One point I was never 100% clear about is if Dmax refers to an absolute
density or simply the ratio of light to dark that can be resolved in a
scan.

In general use it is an absolute measurement, referring the maximum
density of the film to perfect transparency. However, in the context of
scanners with an adjustable exposure, the term is often misused to mean
"Density Range", since a higher Dmax can be achieved by increasing the
exposure, at the expense of increased Dmin.
Thus a Dmax of 4.0 would be able to scan the theoretical range of
densities found in a slide it does not guarentee that the dark areas
would be scanned properly.
The problem is actually the precision to which the dark areas can de
determined. For example, even if the film only supports a Dmax of 3.6,
it can produce a large number of discrete tones between, say, a density
of 3.6 and a density of 3.3. If you have a scanner with a nominal Dmax
of 3.6 this usually refers to the noise floor of the analogue circuits
or the quantisation noise of the ADC. As a minimum, a scanner with a
Dmax of 3.6 must have a 12-bit ADC, however that will only reproduce 2
tones between the densities of 3.6 and 3.3 - clearly less than the film
can reproduce. Thus the shadows are reproduced much poorer than the
film, with a limited number of tones. This limitation is made more
obvious because the perceptual response is not linear - you can see much
finer graduations in tone in shadows than you can in highlights - and
the image must be converted from linear to perceptual scaling (normally
by gamma and gamma compensation) for you to view it correctly. This
stretches out the lightness in the final image between these two linear
tones that the scanner measured at original densities of 3.3 and 3.6.

A 14-bit scanner can reproduce 8 levels between these two densities -
better, but still considerably less than the film. Similarly a 16-bit
scanner can reproduce 32 levels, betters still. However if the total
noise of the 16-bit scanner was dominated by quantisation noise, then
such a device would be considered to have a Dmax of 4.8 - which you
would think ought to be easily capable of reproducing the shadows on a
film with a Dmax of no more than 3.6, but only just achieves it.
This is one of the reasons I prefer scanning negatives as I know my
scanner can cope with the range of densities found.

But with negatives you simply shift the problem to the other end of the
scale, the dynamic range. Here you have a situation where the contrast
of the image must be stretched, because the density range present on the
negative is much less than the density range of the final image they
represent. Consequently you amplify all the noise, including the
analogue noise, quantisation noise *and* the granular noise of the film
itself, to produce the image. Granted, that granular noise is amplified
when you print from a negative conventionally, but the scanner noise
sources must be much lower for negatives than for slides, because of the
contrast stretch. Now, of course, the noise is reproduced throughout
the perceptual range rather than being accumulated in the shadow regions
as it is with the slide, but overall it is worse for an equivalent
scanner, because of the contrast stretch implicit in the negative
process.
 
D

Don

This is one of the reasons I prefer scanning negatives as I know my
scanner can cope with the range of densities found. If I scan slides I
lose a lot of detail from the shadow areas.

You can "stretch" available dynamic range by scanning twice, once a
nominal scan for highlights and then a second boosted scan for
shadows.

The conventional way of merging such images is known as "contrast
masking" but I prefer a more complicated method of "color
coordinating" the shadows scan to bring it down to the nominal scan
levels (but without the noise) and then do a "clean" merge. By this I
mean the shadows scan contributes 100% of shadows, and the highlights
scan contributes 100% of highlights. Conventional contrast masking
mixes both scans so they "pollute" each other which is why it can't be
used on gradients. My method is unaffected by gradients.

It's a very time consuming process but it turns any scanner into a
"variable dynamic range" scanner.

Don.
 
H

Hecate

In general use it is an absolute measurement, referring the maximum
density of the film to perfect transparency. However, in the context of
scanners with an adjustable exposure, the term is often misused to mean
"Density Range", since a higher Dmax can be achieved by increasing the
exposure, at the expense of increased Dmin.
I'm sure I've said this before, but you ought to save all your posts
and publish a book. ;-0

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 
D

David Blanchard

Don said:
You can "stretch" available dynamic range by scanning twice, once a
nominal scan for highlights and then a second boosted scan for
shadows.

The conventional way of merging such images is known as "contrast
masking" but I prefer a more complicated method of "color
coordinating" the shadows scan to bring it down to the nominal scan
levels (but without the noise) and then do a "clean" merge. By this I
mean the shadows scan contributes 100% of shadows, and the highlights
scan contributes 100% of highlights. Conventional contrast masking
mixes both scans so they "pollute" each other which is why it can't be
used on gradients. My method is unaffected by gradients.

It's a very time consuming process but it turns any scanner into a
"variable dynamic range" scanner.

You've often mentioned your unusual work flow but have never spelled
it out in detail or in print...at least I've not seen it before.

Would you be willing to explain the actual steps you use with
NikonScan and multiple scans, your pixel-level alignment, and your
masking technique?

-db-
 
A

Alan Smithee

Kennedy said:
He is talking about the effect of the scanner Dmax on slides.

You appear to be considering negatives - so highlights come from dense
areas of the negative and shadows come from clear areas. The limited
density range of colour negatives means that the scanner Dmax has
little effect, if any, on either highlights or shadows of scans from
negatives.

Vuescan has a long exposure pass function. Wouldn't this give me more DMAX?
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Alan Smithee said:
Vuescan has a long exposure pass function. Wouldn't this give me more DMAX?
That is the general idea - but it doesn't always work as well as
intended. The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley, as one
of my old locals once wrote.
 
P

Philip Homburg

Would you be willing to explain the actual steps you use with
NikonScan and multiple scans, your pixel-level alignment, and your
masking technique?

What would be interesting (but you can't do that unless you have access
to the firmware sources), it to implement some kind of multi-sample scanning
but with different exposure times.
 
D

Don

Vuescan has a long exposure pass function. Wouldn't this give me more DMAX?

No, it wouldn't. The so-called "long exposure pass" just blurs the
image.

There are many problems with VueScan (as usual) and in this particular
case it misses one essential step, and that's sub-pixel alignment.

Absent that, all VueScan does is combine the two images blindly
resulting in a blurry mess.

You could achieve much better results (and indeed double the speed of
the process!) by simply selecting the shadows and applying a small
amount of Gaussian Blur, usually between 0.2 and 0.5. That way at
least the highlights would stay sharp. Well, as "sharp" as VueScan
will allow... :-/

Don.
 
D

Don

You've often mentioned your unusual work flow but have never spelled
it out in detail or in print...at least I've not seen it before.

Would you be willing to explain the actual steps you use with
NikonScan and multiple scans, your pixel-level alignment, and your
masking technique?

Actually I have, several times and in quite some detail.

Give me a day to go back over my old posts and clean it all up into a
single (somewhat) presentable post. I was meaning to do this before
but I'm just perennially busy...

Don.
 
D

Don

What would be interesting (but you can't do that unless you have access
to the firmware sources), it to implement some kind of multi-sample scanning
but with different exposure times.

That's *exactly* why I got the Nikon SDK but - as expected - firmware
is well hidden with many obstructions in the way. Access to firmware
and controlling the scanner at each scan line is my "Holy Grail".

If that were possible, not only could one vary exposure at virtually
each pixel, but one could also vary focus!!! Namely, I have old
cardboard-mounted Kodachromes which are quite warped and something is
always out of focus. Remounting them is not an option for a number of
reasons. For one, sandwiching them between anti-Newton glass would
only introduce glass artifacts.

Don.
 
P

picky

Kennedy said:
In general use it is an absolute measurement, referring the maximum
density of the film to perfect transparency. However, in the context of
scanners with an adjustable exposure, the term is often misused to mean
"Density Range", since a higher Dmax can be achieved by increasing the
exposure, at the expense of increased Dmin.

This is kind of like adjusting the f-stop on a camera. To capture a high
contrast image that exceeds the film's dynamic range, you can set the
f-stop for the shadow details or the highlight details, but not both.

In the digital world, there is no dmax standard or specification. The
manufacturers take great liberty in publishing their dmax numbers.
 
P

picky

Don said:
That's *exactly* why I got the Nikon SDK but - as expected - firmware
is well hidden with many obstructions in the way. Access to firmware
and controlling the scanner at each scan line is my "Holy Grail".

If that were possible, not only could one vary exposure at virtually
each pixel, but one could also vary focus!!! Namely, I have old
cardboard-mounted Kodachromes which are quite warped and something is
always out of focus. Remounting them is not an option for a number of
reasons. For one, sandwiching them between anti-Newton glass would
only introduce glass artifacts.

At the dawn of digital imaging, I thought that digital cameras and
scanners could do exactly what you described, and solve these problems
faced by wet imaging users. Capturing and merging multiple images to
result in variable dynamic range or focus can be done on the digital
cameras and scanners themselves. After all it is only firmware
manipulation that requires no (or little) additional hardware. Of
course, it takes longer to create such an image, and also takes more
storage. But as of today, no manufacturers are even attempting at these
features. They are all left to the users like Don to post process after
capturing.
 
D

David Blanchard

Actually I have, several times and in quite some detail.
Give me a day to go back over my old posts and clean it all up into a
single (somewhat) presentable post. I was meaning to do this before
but I'm just perennially busy...

Thanks. By the way, if any of the steps are specific to the Windows
version of NikonScan, you might mention that since I am using the Mac
version.

Also, there are differences between versions of NikonScan (e.g., v3 vs
v4) that might be important in your discussion. I use v3.1.2 with the
LS2000 and scan...you guessed it...Kodachromes.

Regards,

David
 

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