Dimage Scan Elite 5400 vs Dimage Scan Elite 5400 II

B

brose63

I am looking to purchase a dedicated film/slide scanner and cannot
make
up my mind whether to purchase the older version of Dimage Scan Elite
5400 or the newer 5400 II. I wish one could go to a store and see
images produced, but where I live you cannot find one. I have also
considered the Nikon V ED or coolscan 5000, the latter being a bit
pricey and not sure if I would need it. I mostly like slides (Velvia,
kodachromes, and some professional film). It seems they have made some

changes to the new Dimage 5400 II, L.E.D. light source, no grain
dissolver, new color algorithms. I love the vibrant colors of the
velvia and kodachromes, and it seems some of the samples I have seen on

the web of Nikon have more color. On the other hand I have read really

good reviews on the previous Dimage 5400 and some so-so reviews on the
Dimage 5400, plastic casing. I am not a professional, but may in the
future like to test my abilities. Any opinions of users of these
scanners would be appreciated. Thanks a bunch! MaggieM
 
R

Robert Feinman

I am looking to purchase a dedicated film/slide scanner and cannot
make
up my mind whether to purchase the older version of Dimage Scan Elite
5400 or the newer 5400 II. I wish one could go to a store and see
images produced, but where I live you cannot find one. I have also
considered the Nikon V ED or coolscan 5000, the latter being a bit
pricey and not sure if I would need it. I mostly like slides (Velvia,
kodachromes, and some professional film). It seems they have made some

changes to the new Dimage 5400 II, L.E.D. light source, no grain
dissolver, new color algorithms. I love the vibrant colors of the
velvia and kodachromes, and it seems some of the samples I have seen on

the web of Nikon have more color. On the other hand I have read really

good reviews on the previous Dimage 5400 and some so-so reviews on the
Dimage 5400, plastic casing. I am not a professional, but may in the
future like to test my abilities. Any opinions of users of these
scanners would be appreciated. Thanks a bunch! MaggieM
If you can get the older model at a discount compared to the new one
I think you will be very satisfied.
Color brightness and the like can all be adjusted after scanning using
any good image editing program. What you want is for the scanner to
capture all the available information in the original and for the
scanner software not to over process this data.

See if any of the scanning disucssions on my web site are of use to you.
Follow the tips link on the home page.
You might also consult scantips.com for good advice.
 
H

Hecate

I am looking to purchase a dedicated film/slide scanner and cannot
make
up my mind whether to purchase the older version of Dimage Scan Elite
5400 or the newer 5400 II. I wish one could go to a store and see
images produced, but where I live you cannot find one. I have also
considered the Nikon V ED or coolscan 5000, the latter being a bit
pricey and not sure if I would need it. I mostly like slides (Velvia,
kodachromes, and some professional film). It seems they have made some

changes to the new Dimage 5400 II, L.E.D. light source, no grain
dissolver, new color algorithms. I love the vibrant colors of the
velvia and kodachromes, and it seems some of the samples I have seen on

the web of Nikon have more color. On the other hand I have read really

good reviews on the previous Dimage 5400 and some so-so reviews on the
Dimage 5400, plastic casing. I am not a professional, but may in the
future like to test my abilities. Any opinions of users of these
scanners would be appreciated. Thanks a bunch! MaggieM


Hi Maggie,

I bought the 5400 a little while before v. II came out. When I
compared the specs I was awfully glad I had the original. The grain
dissolver alone makes the original a far superior machine. Also, I
user a firewire connection, something else they've dropped. Plus, you
should be able to get it at a discount now that the new version has
come out. If, for some reason, I had to rep-lace my original, that's
what I'd do. There's no way I'd buy the new version.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 
A

Alex

Hecate said:
Hi Maggie,


I bought the 5400 a little while before v. II came out. When I
compared the specs I was awfully glad I had the original. The grain
dissolver alone makes the original a far superior machine. Also, I
user a firewire connection, something else they've dropped. Plus, you
should be able to get it at a discount now that the new version has
come out. If, for some reason, I had to rep-lace my original, that's
what I'd do. There's no way I'd buy the new version.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Hello Maggie,

I completely agree with the judgment of the older 5400: I couldn't be
happier with any other instrument: that is my sincere belief!

Badly scratched and dusted old negatives are producing scans that show
nearly no trace of any of these defects! It really is amazing how
digital ICE is doing away with all these faults. I've done about 1000
negatives dating from 1959 - 1995, and I couldn't be more pleased with
the results.

I would go for the 5400, and from what I've read about the 5400 II - I
would say: forget about
it!
Greetings, Alex
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

I completely agree with the judgment of the older 5400: I couldn't be
happier with any other instrument: that is my sincere belief!

Badly scratched and dusted old negatives are producing scans that show
nearly no trace of any of these defects! It really is amazing how
digital ICE is doing away with all these faults. I've done about 1000
negatives dating from 1959 - 1995, and I couldn't be more pleased with
the results.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find it irritating when people
make what are no more than basic product loyalty recommendations along
the lines of "Buy what I have, it is the best!" and then go on to
justify that recommendation by citing a feature or facility that is
present on *all* of the units under consideration!
I would go for the 5400, and from what I've read about the 5400 II - I
would say: forget about
it!

WHY???? You haven't mentioned a single feature that would prevent you
from getting exactly the same level of satisfaction from the 5400 MkII,
yet you bought and recommend one but completely reject the other. Why
do YOU think they differ so dramatically?

For one thing, the LED source in the MkII will give a far more longer
life light source, which is far more robust, producing more consistent
colour throughout its longer than could ever be achieved by the cold
cathode lamp in the Mk1. A significant number of Mk1's have had to have
their lamps replaced already (and it has only been around for a couple
of years) but the light source on the MkII will last longer than many
other parts of the scanner.
 
C

cinznno

For casual users, the 5400 II's biggest and observable improvement is
its scanning speed. This is important to those who need to scan fast and
often (archivers or pros?), but not a big deal for those who leisurely
scan a few dozen or so a year (artists?). With the improved scanning
speed, Minolta's hope is that the 5400 II can be a real contender to the
Nikon Coolscans.

Kennedy said:
For one thing, the LED source in the MkII will give a far more longer
life light source, which is far more robust, producing more consistent
colour throughout its longer than could ever be achieved by the cold
cathode lamp in the Mk1.

What are the life expectancies of the LED and cathode light sources, and
under what usage? With some figures, even ball park, users can decide if
this is important to them. Otherwise, a longer life is meaningless.
After all, we all die in the long run. The same holds for "producing
more consistent colour", but that is even more difficult to quantify and
demonstrate.
A significant number of Mk1's have had to have
their lamps replaced already (and it has only been around for a couple
of years) but the light source on the MkII will last longer than many
other parts of the scanner.

What is the "significant number" and where did it come from?
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

For casual users, the 5400 II's biggest and observable improvement is
its scanning speed. This is important to those who need to scan fast and
often (archivers or pros?), but not a big deal for those who leisurely
scan a few dozen or so a year (artists?).

If you are only scanning a few dozen frames a year, you would get better
results cheaper by using a bureau with a drum scanner.
With the improved scanning
speed, Minolta's hope is that the 5400 II can be a real contender to the
Nikon Coolscans.

That objective may also have been significant in the selection of a more
reliable and consistent light source for the MkII.
What are the life expectancies of the LED and cathode light sources, and
under what usage? With some figures, even ball park, users can decide if
this is important to them.

Cold cathode : typically 1000hrs
LED : typically 500,000hrs

This is under steady state conditions. The "ignition" spike on a cold
cathode lamp means that as used in a scanner, the actual life will be
significantly less, perhaps less than 200hrs of actual use. At a minute
or so per scan, that is still many thousand scans, but still very small
compared to an LED source, which has no degradation of life when used
with a small duty cycle. The life of a LED is pretty much determined by
the leakage of contaminants into the semiconductor through the package,
which is only marginally affected by whether the device is on or off,
and not at all by the number of starts.
Otherwise, a longer life is meaningless.

Which is why I made reference to the fact that these lamps often burn
out well before the scanner reaches the end of its life - it isn't long
enough to be meaningless.
After all, we all die in the long run. The same holds for "producing
more consistent colour", but that is even more difficult to quantify and
demonstrate.
Perhaps more difficult to quantify and demonstrate, but you can get a
good analogy of the effect quite easily by examining the light output
from fluorescent tubes, which are effectively the same lighting
technology. Anyone who has ever worked in an office with fluorescent
lighting can tell you that when lamps are replaced as they "burn out"
the new tubes are obviously brighter and bluer than the older tubes for
several weeks. Many companies replace fluorescent tubes as a batch
schedule to maintain uniform light output these days, and certainly do
if light quality is critical for the task being undertaken. If you
haven't had the experience of seeing this for yourself, it is easy
enough to check, if a little time consuming.

Buy two identical replacement tubes and fit them into a lampholder to
check that they give the same light output. Now put one in storage in
the original opaque cover and run the other for a couple of months. Then
compare the light output with the lamp that has been in storage. The
difference is dramatic, even by eye.

By contrast, the LED output has a fixed colour determined by the
semiconductor bandgap. Whilst the light output may vary as a
consequence of the power supply voltage changing with temperature, which
the autoexposure will compensate for, the colour will not change, not
ever, throughout the entire life of the lamp, or the scanner - which is
shorter.
What is the "significant number" and where did it come from?

Well, I have seen at least 40 reports on various forums, as well as
scanners offered on Ebay, where the lamp has required replacement. Given
that most people would simply return the scanner to Minolta right away
for a lamp replacement, that is significant - especially compared to
exactly zero similar reports for LED replacement on Nikon scanners,
which have used essentially the same light technology on all of their
scanners for about 15 years.

If I am not mistaken, even Minolta cannot obtain replacement lamps for
some of their previous generations.
 
D

Don

What are the life expectancies of the LED and cathode light sources, and
under what usage? With some figures, even ball park, users can decide if
this is important to them. Otherwise, a longer life is meaningless.
After all, we all die in the long run. The same holds for "producing
more consistent colour", but that is even more difficult to quantify and
demonstrate.

Actually both are very important to a serious user. Or even to a
comical one... ;o)

LEDs just don't burn out unless you fry them with high voltage. Now,
knowing they will outlast you is nice, but it's not the main advantage
of LEDs as a light source. It's their *stability*! LEDs don't shift
over time as conventional light sources do as they age and slowly
deteriorate increasingly and secretly corrupting your data (the
"boiling frog" syndrome).

Similarly, conventional light sources are all over the place when it
comes to consistent color and color purity. By contrast, LEDs produce
pure light. Not only that, but conventional light source colors bleed
and pollute each other, aren't pure, require filters, etc. etc.

BTW, I don't believe 5400 II can be a real contender to the
Nikon Coolscans because - it is my understanding - Minolta uses a
single white LED while Nikon uses 3 individual color LEDs. Therefore
many of the issues with a single light source will still plague the
Minolta.

Don.
 
W

winhag

Yes, the LED lightsource is probably an improvement. But removal
of the diffuser plate or 'grain dissolver' is definately not.
Even Imacon in it's top of the line CCD scanner boasts of a diffuse
light source (a la 'grain dissolver'). I would guess that Minolta
chose to reduce cost and offer the very obvious benefit of faster
scanning speed (vs. the less obvious but still important and distintive
benefit of the 'grain dissolver').

W
 
M

MaggieM

Hi all,

All of this information is very informative, especially about the light
source being more stable with the L.E.D. light. After looking at the
specs. on both the Dimage Scan Elite 5400 II and the Nikon V ED (which
are comparably priced) the Dimage has a 3 line color CCD with 5340
pixels per line, primary color filter whereas, the Nikon has a 3964
pixel linear CCD image sensor, the Dimage has 4.8 dynamic range and the
Nikon has 4.2. The Light source on the Dimage has only one L.E.D.
light source, and the Nikon does have R,G,B & IR L.E.D.'s. I wonder
then which specs. play the most importance. Sorry to complicate this
further, but I am not an expert in all of this and just want to get the
best for my money. Although everyone, after reading many reviews, seem
to really like the original Dimage Scan Elite 5400, and it seems that
there are a few complaints about the newer version, although it doesn't
seem to come from actual owners. Thanks alot for all the input.
Maggie M
 
I

ian lincoln

MaggieM said:
Hi all,

All of this information is very informative, especially about the light
source being more stable with the L.E.D. light. After looking at the
specs. on both the Dimage Scan Elite 5400 II and the Nikon V ED (which
are comparably priced) the Dimage has a 3 line color CCD with 5340
pixels per line, primary color filter whereas, the Nikon has a 3964
pixel linear CCD image sensor, the Dimage has 4.8 dynamic range and the
Nikon has 4.2. The Light source on the Dimage has only one L.E.D.
light source, and the Nikon does have R,G,B & IR L.E.D.'s. I wonder
then which specs. play the most importance. Sorry to complicate this
further, but I am not an expert in all of this and just want to get the
best for my money. Although everyone, after reading many reviews, seem
to really like the original Dimage Scan Elite 5400, and it seems that
there are a few complaints about the newer version, although it doesn't
seem to come from actual owners. Thanks alot for all the input.
Maggie M

If you scan alot of shots in one sitting the spiking effect won't be too
bad. Nor will the degradation as auto exposure will correct for it. If you
have a decent editing package you can correct. Even if you did have a
constant quality of light it doesn't mean the image will be perfect with no
correction required. Almost everyone who owns the original 5400 seems more
than satisifed. Having a difuse lightsource is very useful. If the
original 5400 is cheap than the nikon or 5400 mkII then get that and learn
how to batch scan. Save the images as tiffs not jpegs. You can save and
resave the same file and there will be no loss of quality whereas with jpeg
even with minimum compression everytime you resave the same file you lose
some quality.

Any money you save should be spent on storage such as dvd writer. Keep
basic scans with no corrections and keep these as your digital negative.
then make the necessary corrections and save seperately. As your scanning
and manipulation skills improve you may find you want to create new
corrected versions of your digital originals. You would also be wise to
invest any savings into a proper calibrated screen.
 
A

Anoni Moose

MaggieM said:
to really like the original Dimage Scan Elite 5400, and it seems that
there are a few complaints about the newer version, although it doesn't
seem to come from actual owners. Thanks alot for all the input.

There are even fewer complaints from owners of the version
that comes out next year!

The number of 'version 1' owners is probably substantially
higher than the number of version 'II' owners.

Mike (Version '1' owner with no complaints).


P.S. - Don't fluorescent lamps usually last more like
10,000 hours, or is the one in scanners 'special'?
I've seen "cold cathode fluorescent lamp" ratings
over 20,000 hours.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Yes, the LED lightsource is probably an improvement. But removal
of the diffuser plate or 'grain dissolver' is definately not.
Even Imacon in it's top of the line CCD scanner boasts of a diffuse
light source (a la 'grain dissolver'). I would guess that Minolta
chose to reduce cost and offer the very obvious benefit of faster
scanning speed (vs. the less obvious but still important and distintive
benefit of the 'grain dissolver').
Of course, nobody seems to have opened up a Minolta 5400 MkII scanner to
determine if the white LED source is intrinsically diffuse, thereby
rendering the grain dissolver obsolete, but you all seem content to
assume that its loss is a retrograde step.

A diffuser plate is only of value if the light source itself is not
diffuse.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Hi all,

All of this information is very informative, especially about the light
source being more stable with the L.E.D. light. After looking at the
specs. on both the Dimage Scan Elite 5400 II and the Nikon V ED (which
are comparably priced) the Dimage has a 3 line color CCD with 5340
pixels per line, primary color filter whereas, the Nikon has a 3964
pixel linear CCD image sensor, the Dimage has 4.8 dynamic range and the
Nikon has 4.2. The Light source on the Dimage has only one L.E.D.
light source, and the Nikon does have R,G,B & IR L.E.D.'s. I wonder
then which specs. play the most importance.

The approach that Nikon use is to measure the density of the film dyes
at the very specific wavelengths of the LEDs, and these are selected so
that there is minimum crosstalk from the dyes in the other film layers.
This results in maximum colour purity at the time of the scan itself.

The "white light" scan that almost every other desktop scanner uses is
based on averaging the density of the film dye across the filter
response of each of the three colours. If you look at the spectral dye
density of most (all?) films you will see that while the red dye has
most of its density in the red are of the spectrum, there is also a
significant density in areas that are passed by the green filter and the
other dyes have some density in the other filter areas too. In
addition, if you look at the spectral response of the filters used on
CCDs (which are only dyed etch resist!) you will find that their
responses spread into areas of the spectrum corresponding to the other
film dyes as well. In simple terms, the colours smear into each other
and saturation is lost. This is no different from when you copy images
from one type of film to another under white light - each generation
results in reduced colour saturation because of the cross contamination
of the dyes and responses. What the scanner then does, knowing the
spectral response of the colour filters reasonably well (but not
accurately) is to increase the saturation by matrix manipulation to
compensate for the loss.

Don't read too much into the dynamic range figures, since both scanners
actually deliver less than they claim. The manufacturers compute their
dynamic range from the number of bits that the ADC produces, which
ignores the noise in the analogue circuit, the intrinsic ADC noise, and
any noise gain as a result of any necessary colour correction.
Effectively, each bit corresponds to 0.3 in dynamic range. So, with a
14-bit ADC, Nikon claim a dynamic range of 14x0.3 = 4.2, while Minolta
use a 16-bit ADC and claim 16x0.3=4.8. Both are unrealistic and, whilst
the Minolta may actually have a better dynamic range at the ADC output
(as a consequence of quieter analogue and better ADC circuits) it is
questionable whether this is retained in practice at the scanner output.
Sorry to complicate this
further, but I am not an expert in all of this and just want to get the
best for my money. Although everyone, after reading many reviews, seem
to really like the original Dimage Scan Elite 5400, and it seems that
there are a few complaints about the newer version, although it doesn't
seem to come from actual owners.

The complaints about the MkII mainly come from owners of the Mk1 and are
almost invariably about the removal of the Grain Dissolver - but nobody
seems to have ascertained if it is a loss of capability or if it is an
option that has become unnecessary as a consequence of the new light
source. Most of the complainers are the same people that were
complaining about the fact that the Mk1 took so long to scan when the
grain dissolver was used.

A diffuse light source might have actually been built in permanently,
but Mk1 owners are complaining because the words "grain dissolver" are
missing from the specification list. In other words, the complaints
appear to be based on nothing more than assumption.

I am not aware of anyone having evaluated a "Scanhancer" plate (the
original independent version of the "grain dissolver") with the MkII
scanner to see if it actually delivers the same benefit as in the MkI.
The complaints would be quite ironic if Minolta have actually delivered
a shorter scan time and a diffuse light source in the MkII ! ;-)

The other major change is the loss of Firewire interface. Well, if you
have several scanners running at the same time and use XP then that
could force a change of workflow to overcome some Micro$oft limitation,
but that is hardly Minolta's fault. One interface on the scanner is
certainly cheaper than two, and two interfaces is one more than will be
used.
 
P

Philip Homburg

Of course, nobody seems to have opened up a Minolta 5400 MkII scanner to
determine if the white LED source is intrinsically diffuse, thereby
rendering the grain dissolver obsolete, but you all seem content to
assume that its loss is a retrograde step.

A diffuser plate is only of value if the light source itself is not
diffuse.

How does that work, a LED source that is 'intrinsically diffuse'?

But it should not be that difficult to compare a couple of test scans (without
ICE) with the Minolta 5400 with and without grain dissolver.
 
W

winhag

Regarding the Mk II potentially having permanent diffuse light source
is interesting.
However, I would be vey surprised if this were the case. I think
Minolta would
be touting this if it were so. However, you do raise a good point in
that it has not
been verified either way.
I do not own either Minolta. I have used a 'scanhancer' diffuser plate
with a current
gen. Nikon scanner and have marveled at the results in certain cases
(there
are cases where there is virtually no improvement, others where it is
difference
is drastic). That is why I made some noise about the (apparent) drop of
the diffuser.

W
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

How does that work, a LED source that is 'intrinsically diffuse'?
Any LED without a lens is intrinsically diffuse - they emit light across
the entire surface of the LED and it is pretty close to. Some types of
white LED are actually UV LEDs with a white phosphor coating, so it
would be relatively simple to make a white diffuse LED with an area
similar to 35mm frame.
 
P

Philip Homburg

Any LED without a lens is intrinsically diffuse - they emit light across
the entire surface of the LED and it is pretty close to.

Most LEDs are tiny, and are more like point light sources. You are saying
that you can just as well build big ones?
Some types of
white LED are actually UV LEDs with a white phosphor coating, so it
would be relatively simple to make a white diffuse LED with an area
similar to 35mm frame.

But then it is the coating that provides the diffuse light and not the LED.
 
P

Pavel Dvorak

Kennedy said:
The approach that Nikon use is to measure the density of the film dyes
at the very specific wavelengths of the LEDs, and these are selected so
that there is minimum crosstalk from the dyes in the other film layers.
This results in maximum colour purity at the time of the scan itself.

The "white light" scan that almost every other desktop scanner uses is
based on averaging the density of the film dye across the filter
response of each of the three colours. If you look at the spectral dye
density of most (all?) films you will see that while the red dye has
most of its density in the red are of the spectrum, there is also a
significant density in areas that are passed by the green filter and the
other dyes have some density in the other filter areas too. In
addition, if you look at the spectral response of the filters used on
CCDs (which are only dyed etch resist!) you will find that their
responses spread into areas of the spectrum corresponding to the other
film dyes as well.

Just a naive question: Isn't this approximating the human vision closer
than using three almost monochromatic colour sources? After all,
the colour sensors in the human eye are sensitive to rather broad
spectral bands, widely overlapping each other, particulary the red and
green ones.

See e.g. http://www.cs.unc.edu/~majumder/color/node12.html

Pavel
 
P

Philip Homburg

Just a naive question: Isn't this approximating the human vision closer
than using three almost monochromatic colour sources? After all,
the colour sensors in the human eye are sensitive to rather broad
spectral bands, widely overlapping each other, particulary the red and
green ones.

See e.g. http://www.cs.unc.edu/~majumder/color/node12.html

This is the way to go for a real world scene, but not for a slide.

When designing a scanner for slides and negatives, we can assume that we
need to capture just the desitity of (at most) three different layers at
each point. There is no point in trying to capture what a human sees because
that can be reconstructed later.

A slide (or a negative) 'sees' the real world through three colored filters
and records that information in three layers. By scanning the slide with
monochromatic colour sources we can directly digitize what is recorded by
the slide.

If you use while light and color filters, you also record any impurities
that are in the slide's filters that reproduce colors.

The interesting that recording colors can be done using three filters,
because that is how the eye sees the world. However, for reproducing
colors, three filters (or mixing three colors) is not enough to reproduce
all the different colors we can see.

So by sampling a slide with white light, you are recording an imperfect
reproduction. Recording with three monochromatic colour sources followed
by digital manipulations gets you much closer to the original scene.

It some point it become a question of whether you want to reproduce a
particular slide (including any imperfections) or whether the slide is
just a means to record a real world scene, which is to be digitized and
manipulated before the final image is printed or displayed.
 

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