Did Microsoft engage in "bait and switch"

B

Bill

I quote:

"In sum, Microsoft engaged in bait and switch -- assuring consumers they
were purchasing 'Vista Capable' machines when, in fact, they could obtain
only a stripped-down operating system lacking the functionality and
features that Microsoft advertised as 'Vista,' " the complaint says. As a
result, the suit said, people were buying machines that couldn't run "the
real Vista."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/310004_msftsued03.html
 
R

Rafael R. [Live Butterfly]

Sounds like Microsoft being blamed for uneducated (and lazy?) consumers.

- Rafael
 
F

Frank

Bill said:
I quote:

"In sum, Microsoft engaged in bait and switch -- assuring consumers they
were purchasing 'Vista Capable' machines when, in fact, they could obtain
only a stripped-down operating system lacking the functionality and
features that Microsoft advertised as 'Vista,' " the complaint says. As a
result, the suit said, people were buying machines that couldn't run "the
real Vista."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/310004_msftsued03.html

So what they're saying is that they purchased computers that the store
put "Vista Capable" stickers on and they will run Vista but not Vista Aero.
Is that correct?
Frank
 
G

Guest

Yah after reading the article, I have to agree that that sticker was very
misleading! Gates didnt help the situation with his interviews stating you
could upgrade to vista for under $100. The "wow" campain really focus' on
the premium home editions and above, but hardly mentions the "BASIC" edition.
Unfortunately, people dont like 5 versions of anything. I dont care what it
is. Its too confusing. It was bad enough when you had XP home and XP
business. At least then, the general public had a reasonable idea of what
they should get. Then came XP:Tablet PC, XP: Media 2005, etc. Again it got
confusing to people.

Microsoft needs to make just two versions: VISTA HOME PREMIUM (roll Basic
into Premium) and VISTA BUSINESS (ROLL ULTIMATE INTO BUSINESS).

Otherwise people will continue these problems.

A great example is my brotherinlaw. I had told him several times to get
premium vista with his new PC. But when it was all said and done, he got a
pc with BASIC in it because he couldnt figure out what to look for on the box
and the salesperson he bought it from was selling him "an less expensive
budget pc".
 
S

Stephan Rose

Rafael said:
Sounds like Microsoft being blamed for uneducated (and lazy?) consumers.

I'd rather say MS is being, quite correctly, blamed for misleading and false
advertising.

When a user buys a "Vista Capable" Pc they expect it to be *fully* capable.
They don't expect it to just barely work with over half of its features
disabled.

Do you really thing the average consumer has *any* idea what processor,
video card, ram they have? Should have? need to have? They have NO idea!
They don't want to, nor should they *need to*, have an idea.

The only thing they want to do is walk into a store, buy their PC for the
operating system of their choice and run their OS with all its features
that they paid money to have.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
B

Bill

There probably should be some co-defendants in this lawsuit from among
the major OEM's who fully knew that their economy systems were not
capable of running anything but Vista basic, and even that rather
poorly. Vista was already RTM. It sounds more and more like a co-
conspiracy.
 
D

Dustin Harper

When "Vista Capable" came out, there was a big stink that "Capable" wasn't
enough. It was barely enough to run Vista Basic. That is what "Capable"
meant in that instance.

"Vista Premium Ready" was the other sticker. Meant it was ready for Premium
versions.

They can run Vista just fine. The Premium Ready machines can run the premium
versions of Vista just fine.

But, it obviously is a concern for some as there is a class action against
Microsoft. But, as far as the what the Judge decides is ignorance or
misleading, I have no idea.

--
Dustin Harper
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.vistarip.com

--
 
L

LaRoux

Filing a lawsuit and applying for class action status (in the US at least)
is something anyone can do for any reason at any time and for very little
money.

Getting certified as a class action would be the next step and even this
isn't all that difficult.

Then, if past history is any indication, they will probably get certified
and three years later it will be settled out of court. MS will admit nothing
but for anyone who says they purchased a computer with a sticker of any
sort, they will offer coupons for $10 off 3 Xbox games unless you are in the
EU in which case you'll be able to download WMP for free. : )

Sadly, in the end, only the lawyers will "win".
 
T

Test Man

I say that "Vista Capable" is exactly that, capable of Vista. Note that it
doesn't specify the specific version, so in this case, Microsoft AREN'T
being misleading here. It IS capable of running Vista!

You need to get a proper grasp of the English language before you are quick
to blame Microsoft.
 
J

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

"*fully* capable"
Interesting word you added there.
The word "fully" is not mentioned or implied by any advertising I have
seen.
Adding it changed the meaning significantly.

A lawsuit filed means almost nothing since almost anyone can sue
almost anyone else for just about anything.
The publicity of this suit may hurt Microsoft but that is probably it.
This discussion on Vista Capable seems to ignore Vista Premium Ready,
all of which are easily researched on Microsoft's website.
As is often typical, some want others to pay for their inability or
unwillingness to research the purchase in advance.

My guess is this suit will result in no award and that assumes it does
not get thrown out first.
 
S

Stephan Rose

Test said:
I say that "Vista Capable" is exactly that, capable of Vista. Note that
it doesn't specify the specific version, so in this case, Microsoft AREN'T
being misleading here. It IS capable of running Vista!

You need to get a proper grasp of the English language before you are
quick to blame Microsoft.

My grasp of the English language, among others, is just fine.

If I go by your definition of "Capable" then I could claim a low-end 5 year
old Pentium 4 is capable. Sure it might take it half an hour to boot up and
move at the speed of a snail. But the operating system is *running* so the
system is obviously capable of running it...even if at a horrid speed.

Does the end-user care about the text-book dictionary definition
of "capable" though? No they don't.

They only care about one thing: They spent money on something and they
didn't get what they paid for. They spent money on a computer and money on
a operating system just to find out that they can't use some of the key
features the OS promised despite the claims that the PC is capable of
running their OS.

Think they would have bought it if the sticker said "Capable of only running
half the features of Vista"?

I won't disagree in that any consumer should do some reasarch prior to
buying anything down to a friggin toaster for their kitchen. Fair enough.

However I also do believe that some corporations, and this is one of those
times, get away with things they simply shouldn't get away with either. MS
and other corporations like it *do* have responsibility as well and should
be held responsible for their actions.

Provoding misleading stickers for hardware is something that I personally
cannot justify.

Just because they will probably weasel their way out of it with the same
textbook definition you mentioned does *not* make it right.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
J

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

There are 4 versions, not 5 since Enterprise and Starter are not
widely available.
And if you quickly look at them, selecting is simple.
Home Premium is similar to Windows XP Home while Business is close to
Windows XP Pro.
Home Basic and Ultimate are new and do not really have any
comparisons.

As for your brother in law, if you said "premium vista", you are
partly to blame since you did not give the correct name to someone who
does not know any better.
You should have said "Home Premium", better yet, you or someone
knowledgeable should have accompanied him..
Perhaps you had given the correct name, he would had gotten what you
suggested.
In either case, your brother in law chose the computer and Microsoft
nor anyone else is responsible, except for possibly the sales rep and
his brother in law giving incomplete information.
Perhaps he had to much information about specifications and to little
knowledge to make an informed purchase?
Sales people often are motivated buy bigger sales so if your brother
had mentioned Home Premium and paid attention, that is probably what
he would have bought.
Hopefully he returned the unsatisfactory computer.

As for making only 2 versions, I like a choice and many others do as
well.
The 4 choices allow people to get the features they want with less
need to get undesired features at a higher cost.
Microsoft gave a choice that allows buyers to get very little or
everything.
Have you asked some users that prefer the cheaper Home Basic what they
think of your idea of eliminating that option and forcing them to pay
more for Home Premium even though they do not want or need the
features?
The price of Business would similarly rise.
Your rolled up Business would probably be cheaper than Ultimate but
more than the current Business.
My guess is you have Ultimate.
 
P

Pecos

Jupiter Jones said:
There are 4 versions, not 5 since Enterprise and Starter are not widely
available.
And if you quickly look at them, selecting is simple.
Home Premium is similar to Windows XP Home while Business is close to
Windows XP Pro.
Home Basic and Ultimate are new and do not really have any comparisons.


If you take a look online at a website like Newegg you will find 21 versions
of Vista available to the retail U.S. customer broken down as follows:

Home Basic OEM 32 Bit
Home Basic OEM 64 Bit
Home Basic Upgrade (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for nominal fee)
Home Basic Upgrade Tech SKU (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for nominal
fee)
Home Basic Full Retail (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for nominal fee)

Home Premium OEM 32 Bit
Home Premium OEM 64 Bit
Home Premium Upgrade (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for nominal fee)
Home Premium Upgrade Tech SKU (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for
nominal fee)
Home Premium Full Retail (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for nominal
fee)

Business OEM 32 Bit
Business OEM 64 Bit
Business Upgrade (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for nominal fee)
Business Upgrade Tech SKU (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for nominal
fee)
Business Full Retail (32 bit DVD w/ option for 64 bit DVD for nominal fee)

Ultimate OEM 32 Bit
Ultimate OEM 64 Bit
Ultimate Upgrade (32 bit and 64 bit DVD's included)
Ultimate Signature Upgrade Edition (32 bit and 64 bit DVD's included)
Ultimate Upgrade Tech SKU (32 bit and 64 bit DVD's included)
Ultimate Full Retail (32 bit and 64 bit DVD's included)

Each of course has it's specific EULA verbiage.

I have contacted Newegg via EMail and live help and can't get an explanation
of what the Upgrade Tech SKU is. They gave me an EMail to a Microsoft
contact and they couldn't answer the question either. That is clear as mud.
And if you quickly look at them, selecting is simple.

I find it difficult to believe that any rational being on this planet finds
it 'simple' to select the right version of Vista for them. I spent 2-3
hours a night for a week and a half trying to figure out the differences
between those 21 versions and the limitations of their EULA's (there are at
least three EULA's to review).

Please read my entire article on 'Vista Confusion' and tell me this is
simple.
--
Alan Norton
Reviews of ABIT AN8 SLI, ECS P965T-A & Foxconn 975X7AB-8EKRS2H MBs
Vista Confusion, Missing Posts Mysteries & Playing the Rebate Game Articles
Arizona Pics and Cute Animal Pics
http://www.mindspring.com/~anorton1/
 
G

Gary VanderMolen

People don't like 5 versions of anything?
Then how do you explain that America's most popular car,
the Honda Accord, comes in 8 different trim levels?

Gary VanderMolen
 
J

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

Yes, it is simple.
Perhaps NewEggs marketing is making the simple seem complicated.
If New Egg lists those with little or no explanation, they are making
it difficult for their customers.
The fact NewEgg can not explain what they have tells us something
about NewEgg.

And those you listed come down to 4
Home Basic
Home Premium
Business
Ultimate.
Regardless the source, OEM, Retail, Educational.

Your 21 is flawed, for one, the signature is a packaging difference
only and otherwise identical.
You also missed educational and others such as MSDN, TechNet etc.
There is software for sale beyond NewEgg.
Perhaps NewEgg is best for the already informed.
Your experience with them indicates as much.

Instead of looking at 21 as you did, I would start with the 4 above
and go from there.
Then upgrade or full.
If full, OEM or retail.
For most it is that simple.
The hardest part is which of the 4, and that is usually easy.
 
G

Guest

Well I said it wrong, I meant that I had told my brother VISTA HOME PREMIUM!
See, even such a "SIMPLE" example came across as the "wrong" version, even
among the "experts" here (I have been using MS products since MSDOS 2.0 and
first learned on a Commadore vic20 some 25 years ago).

And I am sorry but pecos is right! The EULA is too confusing to the average
person! People expect to be able to transfer software from an old computer
to a new computer when they retire the old computer. Especially when
software is so expensive such as an OS! Yes I know its a money game for MS,
and they want to make money. I have no problem with that. But MS has
created its own beast...aka hackers trying to circumvent the copy protection
(god this sounds familiar aka music) in order to get a reasonable use of a
product that every reasonable person thinks should be transferable. I
disagree with people hacking just for spreading "free software" but there has
to be a middle ground here somewhere where both MS can make money and the
average person can get reasonable transferability rights at a reasonable
price.

Back to the situation at hand in this particular discussion, MS maybe didnt
intentionally "bait and switched" but their own particular approach to
advertising and trying to squeese every penny out of its customers is what is
at the root cause of this situation and this... at least we can say...
misadvertising, on a stupid 2in square advertising sticker. Everyone is
rushing to get computers sold for the christmas season and MS really didnt
explain much about VISTA as it should have until well after the christmas
season had ended (at least for the average, non-computer literate customer to
understand).

It will be interesting to see where this lawsuit lands.
 
J

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

"MS really didnt explain much about VISTA as it should have until well
after the christmas"
Then you did not look on Microsofts website.
The specific information and details about the differences between
Capable and Premium Ready have been on the site for months, long
before the public release in November.

"expect to be able to transfer software"
And you can move retail Vista all you want as long as it is installed
on only one computer at a time.
The same as it has been since at least Windows 95, nothing has
changed.

As for the "bait and switched", I could see that more if there was
only one sticker, but there are two and some seem to ignore Premium
Ready and the obvious differences.

Microsoft made the information available in detail long in advance.
What the buyers and salespeople do with that information is up to
them.
 
P

Pecos

Jupiter Jones said:
Yes, it is simple.
Perhaps NewEggs marketing is making the simple seem complicated.
If New Egg lists those with little or no explanation, they are making it
difficult for their customers.
The fact NewEgg can not explain what they have tells us something about
NewEgg.

Newegg doesn't have the resources to fully list the features and
considerations of the different versions. Except for the Upgrade Tech SKU
which seems to be Newegg specific, most online software vendors have the
other 17 versions. That makes it a Microsoft marketing issue not a Newegg
issue.

Your 21 is flawed, for one, the signature is a packaging difference only
and otherwise identical.
You also missed educational and others such as MSDN, TechNet etc.
There is software for sale beyond NewEgg.
Perhaps NewEgg is best for the already informed.
Your experience with them indicates as much.

Fair enough. One of the 21 is identical to the others except for the
packaging. I left the other versions out since they are not retail to the
general public.
Instead of looking at 21 as you did, I would start with the 4 above and go
from there.
Then upgrade or full.
If full, OEM or retail.
For most it is that simple.
The hardest part is which of the 4, and that is usually easy.

I'm sorry to disagree with you Jupiter, but I would hardly call someone
using your simple method a fully informed buyer.

I'm guessing that you didn't read my article. :) That's OK. We can
discuss some of the issues here.

Buying a copy of Vista was so complicated that I created some new terms to
help clarify matters.

I broke the 21 versions into three basic categories:

The Features Version (4)
Home Basic
Home Premium
Business
Ultimate

The Bit Version (2)
32 bit
64 bit

The Package Version (3)
OEM
Upgrade
Full

I don't even discuss to any real extent the features versions on my website.
This is a good website to determine what features go with what versions:

http://www.powerdonkey.net/signup3.php

There are 42 features there that a Vista customer has to understand and pick
and choose from to find the right version of Vista for them. I don't have a
big problem with that. It is the nature of beast. But I wouldn't call the
process of determining which features a Vista buyer might want as simple.

Then there is the device limitation of the different features versions.
Home Basic allows only 5 device connections and the others allow 10 device
connections - 'connections' to "Print services", "File Services", "Internet
Information Services" and "Telephony Services". So a buyer must understand
that if they have more than 5 'devices', Home Basic won't work for them. I
really don't understand what these 'devices' are. Is a modem connected to
the internet a "Telephony Service" device? Are hard drives, floppy drives
and DVD drives considered "File Service" devices? If true, one can come up
with five such devices in a hurry.

The bit version can be a little bit tricky though. When I got my beta
version of Vista, it had both the 32 and 64 bit versions. The instructions
said to install the appropriate version for my computer. Anyone doing any
homework at all will quickly discover that it isn't that simple. There are
driver issues with the 64 bit version. Most applications are still 32 bit.
You won't gain much there at least right now by choosing the 64 bit version.
Except for high data usage applications, 32 bit should suffice. However,
you miss the opportunity of future-proofing your PC if you pass on the 64
bit version. So that one isn't such a simple decision either. In some
cases, the only way you could really know what version is best for you is to
try them both and see which one you can live with. I was excited to hear a
rumor that Vista would come with both DVD's like the beta's did, but only
Ultimate was ultimately chosen to include both DVD's.

And lastly in this brief overview we have the package version. The main
issue here is the transferability rights to another device and to a third
party. The rights generally speaking become more liberal as you move from
the OEM to the Full package version. Believe me, it is no simple matter to
wade through the three EULA's to determine what those rights are. Yes,
there are three EULA's (at least), one for OEM, one for Business and one for
Home Basic, Home Premium and Ultimate.

I won't go into the other complexities of the EULA's here, but anyone who
isn't a lawyer can become quickly overwhelmed by the lack of simplicity
there!

One simple consideration of the package versions is what previous version of
Windows qualifies for the upgrade. But then there is a matrix that the
Vista buyer has to look at to determine what the upgrade path is. And then
there are the 'true in-place' versus 'clean install' upgrade considerations.

I have done the research and I don't claim it to be the definitive guide for
choosing the right version of Vista. I posted it as a helpful guide to those
who don't want to spend a lot of time online doing the research to become a
more informed buyer.

I came up with a list of 12 questions that can greatly narrow down the
choices. It is not a comprehensive list, but in lieu of a full-fledged flow
chart, it can greatly simplify the decision process. You will have to use
the matrix on my website or make one of your own.

Top Row:

OEM 32 Bit
OEM 64 Bit
Upgrade
Signature Upgrade
Upgrade Tech SKU
Full

1st Column:

Home Basic
Home Premium
Business
Ultimate

Then go to your favorite online software vendor and enter the prices for
each row/column cell.
----

First, print out the Vista Version Matrix in the first section of my article
or make one for yourself.

Next, answer these questions that apply to you:

Did you build your computer, build one for someone else or order a new PC
from a system builder/vendor?
If no, cross out the OEM columns in the table.

Do you own or will be buying Windows 2000, XP TabletPC, XP Home, XP
Professional or XP Professional x64 and is it or will it be installed on you
computer?
If no, cross out the Upgrade, Signature, and Upgrade Tech SKU columns in the
table.

Next, answer these questions that you want or don't want in your new
operating system:

Do you want to have the option to sell the OS in the future and keep your
current computer?
If yes, cross out the OEM columns in the table.

Do you want to be able to install your version of Vista on another computer
if your current computer dies?
If yes, cross out the OEM columns in the table.

Do you want both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions of Vista?
If yes, cross out the OEM columns in the table.

Do You want Aero (Windows Vista glass-like translucent graphical interface),
scheduled backup capability and Productivity Features?
If yes, cross out the Home Basic row.

Do you plan to or want to be able to uninstall and then reinstall Vista on
another computer?
If yes, cross out the OEM columns in the table.

Do you want to connect more than 5 devices for "Print services", "File
Services", "Internet Information Services" and "Telephony Services"?
If yes, cross out the Home Basic row in the table.

Do you want to use Windows Media Center? Note that Media Center is a
superset of the Media Player which will be available on all versions.
If yes, cross out the Home Basic and Business rows in the table.

Do you want to use Virtualization and / or Remote Desktop?
If yes, cross out the Home Basic and Home Premium rows in the table.

Do you want the Previous Versions feature? (Allows you to restore previously
cached versions of your data files).
If yes, cross out the Home Basic and Home Premium rows in the table.

How Much do you want to spend?
Finally, cross out the individual cells with prices above the amount you
want to spend for Vista.

----

That's as simple as I could make it. But to make a fully informed decision,
a person wanting to purchase Vista should read the EULA's for themselves and
carefully research the other issues related to the features, bit and package
versions.
--
Alan Norton
Reviews of ABIT AN8 SLI, ECS P965T-A & Foxconn 975X7AB-8EKRS2H MBs
Vista Confusion, Missing Posts Mysteries & Playing the Rebate Game Articles
Arizona Pics and Cute Animal Pics
http://www.mindspring.com/~anorton1/
 
J

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

"Newegg doesn't have the resources to fully list the features and
considerations of the different versions"
Yes they do.
They have direct private sources at Microsoft as well at the vast
information publically available at microsoft.com as well as other
sources.
Or do you mean NewEgg chooses not to list or make available
information on the products they sell?
If that is the case, find a willing seller.

If they can not locate the information on what they sell, they should
not sell what they can not adequately identify.
Find a seller that knows the products they sell if NewEgg is not up to
that simple task..

Much of what you write has some degree of truth but it seems designed
to make the simple complicated.
"I broke the 21 versions into three basic categories:" "The Bit
Version (2)"
For example no one needs to make a choice concerning 32 or 64 bit
where retail is concerned since both are included, Ultimate has both
DVDs while the other three can order 64 bit DVD.

No need to make a choice

"Then there is the device limitation"
Those that need to look carefully here are not typical and probably
already know far more than the average since they have several
computers.
Again, simple to the point of being a nonexistent issue for most.

"The bit version can be a little bit tricky though."
Yes, the simple can also be made "tricky".
That is one reason why 64 bit is not included in the three versions,
most of those do not need 64 bit and confusion it may add.
Ultimate is intended for the more knowledgeable so they can also make
an informed choice.
A simple choice of one for most.

For the most part, users do not buy at online sales sources unless
they are somewhat informed to begin with.
The less informed will buy at a brick and mortar store such as Staples
or Wal-Mart.
For them there are 8 choices, the 4 versions and a choice of full or
upgrade.
Other options are for more informed buyers since a little more
knowledge may be needed.
What the salesperson does with that lack of information is a
reflection on the salesperson and the company.
While even more will not buy Vista until the need for a new computer.

For the most part, you have taken steps that seem to make the simple
look complicated.
The most basic users will buy a new computer with the current
operating system available.
This group often has no previous knowledge.
Another group will upgrade by purchasing at a brick an mortar store
where there are few choices.
his group already has some knowledge since they are upgrading an
existing computer.
the next may venture online and/or OEM.
They probably have more knowledge still since since they have expanded
their sources.

The choices available become more visible and available as experience
increases.
Someone with zero computer experience is unlikely to build from
scratch and be faced with the myriad choices of hardware, software and
operating systems, they will simply go purchase a computer probably
complete with a printer and maybe a few other items.
The more knowledgeable will face more options as experience allows and
make an informed choice accordingly.

Quite regularly people complain that Microsoft is to controlling and
yet some want Microsoft to restrict peoples choices and give people
less control over what they purchase.
It seems no matter which way Microsoft goes, some will complain.
I for one like the many options Microsoft makes available some of
which have probably been forced on Microsoft.such at the N versions of
Vista.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org
 
B

bp

I say that "Vista Capable" is exactly that, capable of Vista. Note that it
doesn't specify the specific version, so in this case, Microsoft AREN'T
being misleading here. It IS capable of running Vista!

You need to get a proper grasp of the English language before you are quick
to blame Microsoft.
Am I missing simething here.
Becasue I didn't know MS sold PC's Vista capable or not.
 

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