B
Bob
The Everest temp is the same as the MBM5 temp.
The Everest temp is the same as the MBM5 temp.
B
Bob
I am using the KPF-23, which has one 40mm fan in the bay and two 40mm
fans in the tray. The tray is almost all aluminum for good heat
transfer to the air stream created by the fans.
Because the tray is easily accessible, I have performed a simple test.
I shut down Windows and pull the tray and open the top and put the
backside of my index finger directly on the drive. I do the same to a
drive that has been sitting on my desk. That way I can go back and
forth between the two drives and compare the heat sensation I get in
my finger.
The temp of the drive I just took out of service is *slightly* warmer
than the one sitting on my desk. There is no heat issue here.
B
Bob
I am using the KPF-23 which has three 40mm fans built in, one in the
bay and two in the tray.
Besides the finger test I mentioned in the previous post, I have used
an electronic meat thermometer which is accurate enough for this test.
First I calibrate it at room temp against other electronic
thermometers I have. It's spot on so I then use it to probe the temp
of the air coming out the front of the tray. It is not hot by any
means.
B
Bob
The Kingwin KPF-23 is made of aluminum. It also has 3 fans.
B
Bob
I did not have the problem after I did the IPU. It cropped up well
after then.
From what I have read it has serious diagnostics built in.
When I said I wanted to try Vista I should have included the fact that
I would only use it after the first SP had been out - usually I wait
until the second SP has been out a month or so.
These are the JB "special editions".
Interesting. That may be the problem I am facing. After this week's
tests I will wire the boot drive in directly to the IDE channel. I can
use removables for cloning.
Does anyone know what DIN-connector based removables the writer was
referring to?
I expect people to report a major problem on Usenet.
B
Bob
Win2K does not have scandisk. I suppose you are talking about the one
that comes with MS-DOS, which I do have.
I will try that. Any particular switches or configuration? It's been a
while since I ran it.
M
~misfit~
Bob said:
Of course it is!!!! That's why I said in a post that WD drives seem to
report temps incorrectly (IME). The software only reads what the drive tells
it. The temp would be the same in Speedfan, SiSoft Sandra, Dr Watson... You
name it. They all just report what the drive is saying. I'm saying that I
don't trust WD drives to report properly.
FWIW Samsung drives also report wrong temps IME.
T
Timothy Daniels
~misfit~ said:
The connectors and cable specified for ATA/100 and ATA/133
are both identical for the 2 speeds.
An exhaust fan drawing air through the front of a HD tray
is not "passive cooling". It is *active* cooling. The fan
just happens to be a big fan mounted in the wall of the
case instead of a little fan in the tray or its rack. It works
quite well as shown by the lack of problems with it in the
UCLA student computer labs.
The Kingwin trays and racks are aluminum. But too much
is made of metal-to-metal contact for HD cooling. If you take
a close look at the mounting screw bosses on a hard drive,
you will see that they are a tiny step up from the adjacent edge
of the hard drive case. Even if the hard drives are tightly bolted
to the tray or other supporting structure, there will be an air gap,
eaving only the boss and the screw to conduct heat between
the two structures. OTOH, a business consultant named "Anna"
who posts in the microsoft.public.windowsxp.* NGs installs the
plastic mobile trays mad by Athena for her customers to use for
regular cloning backups, and she claims that none of her
customers has had a problem related to inadequate cooling of
the hard drives. In short, most of hard drive cooling is provided
by airflow, not by metal-to-metal conduction.
You meant to write "5,400 rpm", didn't you?
Kingwin makes a very nicely cooled tray that has a builti-in
fan in the bottom of the tray:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=25&ID=136
It works quite well to keep my 7,200 rpm HDs cool, and
it's quiet, but that style of fan is only available for PATA
hard drives.
Athena also makes similar model, the MR-999ATN which
has a larger bottom fan: http://www.athenapower.com/ .
*TimDaniels*
K
kony
1) It is not active cooling. The chassis for entire system
is actively cooled, but when speaking of a subsystem such as
a removable enclosure, the criteria is ALWAYS (even in
made-up-bs-Tim-world) whether that specific subsystem is
self-sustaining with it's own fan, else it is passively
cooled. This is a FACT.
2) If these student computer labs aren't having at LEAST
the typical failure rate (that all drives do, even in
*perfect conditions*, then the lab techs were in error
claiming there are no failures over several years.
Clueless.
Trivial amounts of heat are removed by the sides of the
drive frame. The main components needing cooling are on the
middle of the bottom (bearings) and the components on the
PCB (and the PCB traces-as-'sinks). Whether the tray/bay is
aluminum or in contact (which is laughable in itself unless
you're smearing heatsink grease all over it, a relatively
tiny % of the two surfaces would otherwise be in contact),
the difference in cooling is trivial at best.
You might think about refraining from guessing, making up
nonsense, and all your other trollisms.
Y
yuenkitmun
I'm using win2k - scandisk is under Windows explorer. Right click
properties the drive, Tools / Error Checking
Select all checking options. Good luck
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/ArticleID/23061/23061.htm
T
Timothy Daniels
korny said:
Of course it is. "Passive" cooling is by conduction or
by convection. Anything that requires energy input is
considered "active" cooling, and a fan drawing air
into, across, and out of the PC case is considered
"active" cooling because it takes the input of electrical
energy to activate the fan to move the air. There really
is no difference whether the fan is on the rear of the
rack, on the front of the tray, on the bottom of the tray,
or at the rear of the case. It's all the same - energy is
being expended to move the air, so the cooling is
"active" by definition.
I never asked them if the drives never failed. I asked
them if there had ever been problems traceable to the
removable trays. From my experience in touching the
drives upon their removal, they're not overheating,
and the techs have never known of a HD not working
because of a bad tray connector.
I agree! My reply was to "Misfit" who wrote:
"I'd hate to run a modern HDD running at 7,200 rpm in
a passively cooled "mobile tray". In fact, I simply wouldn't
do it unless the tray/bay system was made out of heavy
aluminium and made good enough contact with the
HDD/the other component to act as a heatsink."
As "Anna" reports, she and her customers have not had
any HD cooling problems with the plastic removable trays.
This is in total agreement with your claim that the sides of
the drive frame do not appreciably aid in heat removal.
So HD cooling depends on airflow, not the material
making up its mounting. And.... since there is adequate
airflow through the UCLA removable trays provided by the
case fan - without any fans inside the removable trays or
their racks - the HDs are kept cool and healthy.
All this adds up to there being nothing inherently wrong
with "Bob's" removable HD tray. Such trays can be as
trouble-free as any fixed HD. There *may* be a problem
with it, but it is no more probable than any other reason.
*TimDaniels*
K
kony
Which is exactly what that subsystem does.
Except you overlook the part about this removable bay not
requiring any "energy input" for it.
Of the case yes, of the bay, no. These are standard terms,
your opinion means naught.
There is one difference that is highly relevant, that in the
former, it's not active. You simply don't know what
"active" means and apparently guessed, misinterpreted from
that point onward.
Most certainly not. By definition or by industry use and
practice it is passive. In your random "still needs
airflow" argument, you start out correct but that's not what
active vs passive is. It is the state of the subsystem
itself.
If we only wanted to consider relative terms, in fact the
bay does NOT require any fan at all, on the chassis, merely
an ambient temp low enough.
Same is true of video cards, CPU heatsinks and anything else
you want to consider, that these parts are by definition,
passively cooled though they do rely on a certain minimal
amount of chassis airflow.
It becomes even more suspicous, but to go with this...
Asking them if a problem was traceable, even ignoring their
possible lack of direct knowledge on this, does not exclude
it. Bob could have problems with his drive bays, but he too
has not "traced" them to the bays.
So we can say the same about a car crashing into a brick
wall, that it was not known by the driver that it happened
because the tire went flat... even if the tire went flat,
and that caused it.
Giving the bays the benefit of the doubt, perhaps they do
work fine. I wouldn't trust that for a second if/when
drives start loosing all their data but for the moment even
if we suppose those particular bays worked fine, we still
have other variables such as what ATA rate they used, and
whether that model of the product is even available for
purchase today. Citing one product that "seems" to work is
no evidence another does equally well, let alone singular
specimens of product even when the average specimen of that
product line does work well.
T
Timothy Daniels
kony said:
Read the above again with your glasses on. It says:
"An exhaust fan drawing air through the front of a HD tray".
That is active cooling. By your definition, active cooling
of the hard drives could only occur if the hard drives had
built-in fans. By your definition, hard drives in removable
trays that had fans would be cooled passively because
the hard drives wouldn't be blowing on themselves. Yours
is an argument gone absurd.
The truth is that removable hard drive trays don't need fans
if there is adequate airflow produced by the case fan. The
small 40mm fans commonly used in removable trays are
more effective in producing noise than in producing airflow.
That's why the fans in the bottom of the trays are so effective -
they're larger and there isn't a direct path for sound to get out.
And both Kingwin and Athena offer such removable trays
among their models. You ought to try them before giving voice
to your inexperience.
*TimDaniels*
M
~misfit~
Timothy said:
No it's not. If the airflow is there already and isn't supplied by the
subsytem (tray) then the tray, as a subsystem, is passively cooled. Are you
really this thick?
You do love deliberately misunderstanding and shit-stirring don't you Timmy?
The dicussion is about the tray/HDD subsystem and you know it. *Yours* is an
argument that has *stayed* absurd. I actually don't remember saying I
plonked you, if I did I forgot the follow-up part.
I have no time for people who just get into circular arguments for the sake
of it. That is what you are doing and have been doing in here for a long
time.
So...
WTF has that got to do with the active/passive discussion? Stop trying to
divert attention away from the fact that you're just plian wrong.
I won't be seeing you.
B
Bob
When I do that Win2K tells me that it will have to schedule it for the
next time I reboot. When I reboot, Win2K runs CHKDSK.
Do a Search for "scandisk". There is none that belongs to Windows.
K
kony
Read the following while taking your meds:
WHERE the fan is, has everything to do with whether a
specific subsystem is deemed active or passive.
No, by everyone's definition.
Hard drives are not cooled actively, but IF the removable
bay or external enclosure they're in, has the fan INTEGRAL
to it, then that bay or enclosure itself is actively cooled.
It is relative to the subsystem discussed.
it is sometimes the case that with a very limited # of
dedicated subsystems, where the one doesn't exist without
the other (when will you use a removable tray, as-in be
actually "using" it, if there is no drive in it?), that they
are considered as a whole in that they are not modular to
the extent that one has purpose without the other.
I didn't make up the "rules" , Tim, the industry uses the
terms active and passive quite often. You are disputing
everything from passive southbridge, northbridge, CPU
(if/when they can be passively cooled), video card, et al
components which we both know are termed passively cooled
although they too, need a certain minimal level of airflow
afforded by the case exhaust.
To a certain extent I will at least agree with this, they're
quite noisey, though that noisey 40mm fan can still cool
most drives acceptibly in more hospitable environments.
But thinner. They still rely on the exhaust area too.
Essentially they aren't much more effective but do help
reduce noise quite a bit.
If only the fan placement were all there is to consider...
B
Bob
It's not like you to engage in cheap ad homs.
Something has gotten into you in the past couple weeks. You are not
the mild mannered reporter for the Daily Planet anymore.
T
Timothy Daniels
~misfit~ said:
Ahhh! *You* have Alzheimer's, too. On February 19, 2006,
in the thread "How much heat do cooling fans generate" in this
very newsgroup, you wrote:
"Well, after reading this group for many years and
seeing Kony selflessly give good advice to many
hundreds of people I have one word for you Timmy.
<Plonk>
--
~misfit~"
It appears that you lied.
Are you lying now, too?
*TimDaniels*
K
kony
I tend to respond similarly to the preceeding post. If
someone seems to relate in a certain way, my replies will
tend to go that direction too. If you were in China would
you speak Spanish?
T
Timothy Daniels
~misfit~ said:
You should recall that the "active/passive discussion" began
with Korny's absurdity that Kingwin removable HD trays
were "questionable".
*TimDaniels*