CONTROLLING DRIVE LETTERS: At the BIOS level? Somewhere else? (Windows2000 Professional)

R

Rod Speed

CURIOUS ANGEL said:
GAG! Well. No wonder I didn't find "Mount Manager" anywhere in my
Resource Kit. Someone's produced a PDF--
5 MB
2004-07-15
http://www.esm-software.nl/documentation/Storagecentral/E-book SC5 VRTS.pdf
--217 PAGES LONG!

And from Microsoft . . .
HOW WINDOWS 2000 ASSIGNS, RESERVES, AND STORES DRIVE LETTERS
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=234048

So, 3 years later when I'm done reading the guide (juuuust kidding ;)
. . .
Alright. Peter.
Let's take it from the top.
Here's what I'm gonna do.
Please insert PRECISELY where/when I NTFS the remaining 3 drives.

Just do each one after its been seen by XP after its been added.
 
C

CURIOUS ANGEL

Rod said:
Just do each one after its been seen by XP after its been added.

(it's Windows 2000 Professional btw, no big deal, the thread is long but
I don't want anyone reading it to be confused) . . .

Okay Rod,

I just want verification that the PRECISE sequence I listed above is
what I should try? I'm not trying to beat the issue to death; but
obviously I haven't been doing (the infamous) "something" correctly up
to now and even one mistake could blow this whole reinstall.

A simple Yes? I have these steps in the correct sequence?

Angel
 
P

Peter

And from Microsoft . . .
HOW WINDOWS 2000 ASSIGNS, RESERVES, AND STORES DRIVE LETTERS
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=234048

Yes, that one is not bad.

"All assigned drive letters are "persistent" after they are assigned. This
means they should remain assigned to that volume until it is either deleted
or changed manually using Disk Management. This should hold true for all
online volumes as you add and remove disks to the system.

The exception to this rule is that if a volume (disk) is offline, and a
different new volume comes online, it may get the offline volume's drive
letter. To ensure you keep your drive letter assignments intact, you must
keep existing volumes online when introducing new volumes."

Alright. Peter.
Let's take it from the top.
Here's what I'm gonna do.
Please insert PRECISELY where/when I NTFS the remaining 3 drives.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1. Low-level format all 4 of the drives

{How you do that, BTW?}
Power off
2. Cable FLOPPY + 18 GB SCSI HDD + IDE DVD±R/RW DRIVE

I would connect everything as for final configuration.
Power on with W2K Pro in a bootable DVD drive.
Check BIOS config to ensure correct boot order.
3. NTFS 18 GB through Windows 2000 Professional Setup CD

Install W2K, then SP4
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
4. Reassign boot DVD±R/RW drive to . . . H:\

That is important.
Reassign other optical drives to I: J: K:
5. Power down

No need
6. Cable D:\ 2 GB IDE, boot

No need
But install drivers for ZIP drive
Power down/up
W2K Disk Manager assign E: to ZIP drive
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
7. NTSF D:\,

No need to power down
8. Cable E:\ 100 MB ZIP IDE, boot, power down

That's already done, no need to power down
9. Cable F:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot

No need
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
10. NTSF F:\,

No need to power down
11. Cable G:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot

No need
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
12. NTSF G:\,

No need to power down
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
13. Reassign T:\ (DVD±R/RW) to -->> H:\, power down

It is H: already, no need reassign or power down
14. Cable I:\ DVD±R/RW, boot, power down
15. Cable J:\ 4X SONY CD-ROM, boot, power down
16. Cable K:\ 24X TDK CD-R/RW, boot, power down

Those are already done.

That should work, unless some mass storage drivers are introduced
too late in above process (just speculating...)
 
R

Rod Speed

CURIOUS ANGEL said:
Rod Speed wrote
(it's Windows 2000 Professional btw, no big deal, the thread is long but I
don't want anyone reading it to be confused) . . .
Okay Rod,
I just want verification that the PRECISE sequence I listed above is what I
should try?

Yes, I should have said that more strongly.
I'm not trying to beat the issue to death; but obviously I haven't been doing
(the infamous) "something" correctly up
to now and even one mistake could blow this whole reinstall.
A simple Yes? I have these steps in the correct sequence?

Yes.
 
C

CURIOUS ANGEL

Rod said:
Yes, I should have said that more strongly.

Yes.

A double yes is good enough for me. Thanks so much Rod.

Launch will probably be in a couple of days, because I want to read a
bit of that PDF and . . . I'm nervous lol. Well, what the hell. Every
crash is a learning experience, eh?

Angel

(my poor long-suffering drives lol)
 
C

CURIOUS ANGEL

Peter said:
{How do you do that, BTW?}

Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
SCSI utility).

Two HDD mfg.s confirmed independently that "no virii can survive a
low-level format. none. period." (I'm sure someone will come along
and tell me the one exception to that rule lol)

I'm leaning toward the CABLE/REBOOT approach, but . . . I'm going to
read a bit of that monster PDF first.

Thanks Peter.

Angel
 
P

Peter

{How do you do that, BTW?}
Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
SCSI utility).

That fine for SCSI drives.
Two HDD mfg.s confirmed independently that "no virii can survive a
low-level format. none. period." (I'm sure someone will come along
and tell me the one exception to that rule lol)

I'm leaning toward the CABLE/REBOOT approach, but . . . I'm going to
read a bit of that monster PDF first.

There is nothing interesting in that PDF, at least from your original
problem perspective.

And I advise to leave cables properly attached, right from the beginning.
 
P

Peter

GAG! Well. No wonder I didn't find "Mount Manager" anywhere in my
Resource Kit. Someone's produced a PDF--
5 MB
2004-07-15
http://www.esm-software.nl/documentation/Storagecentral/E-book SC5 VRTS.pdf
--217 PAGES LONG!

And from Microsoft . . .
HOW WINDOWS 2000 ASSIGNS, RESERVES, AND STORES DRIVE LETTERS
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=234048

So, 3 years later when I'm done reading the guide (juuuust kidding ;) . . .

Alright. Peter.
Let's take it from the top.
Here's what I'm gonna do.
Please insert PRECISELY where/when I NTFS the remaining 3 drives.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1. Low-level format all 4 of the drives
2. Cable FLOPPY + 18 GB SCSI HDD + IDE DVD±R/RW DRIVE
3. NTFS 18 GB through Windows 2000 Professional Setup CD
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
4. Reassign DVD±R/RW drive to . . . T:\
5. Power down

Well I would reboot here just to make sure DVD is on drive T before
continuing. Then I would power down and continue with step 6
6. Cable D:\ 2 GB IDE, boot
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
7. NTSF D:\, power down
8. Cable E:\ 100 MB ZIP IDE, boot, power down
9. Cable F:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
10. NTSF F:\, power down
11. Cable G:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
12. NTSF G:\, power down, boot
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
13. Reassign T:\ (DVD±R/RW) to -->> H:\, power down

Same here.
14. Cable I:\ DVD±R/RW, boot, power down
15. Cable J:\ 4X SONY CD-ROM, boot, power down
16. Cable K:\ 24X TDK CD-R/RW, boot, power down
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In fact perhaps it may be best to do that in all situations where you
add a new device and then reassign its letter. Just to make sure that
device is sticking.
 
C

CURIOUS ANGEL

Peter said:
{How do you do that, BTW?}


That's fine for SCSI drives.

Peter, I do hope you know there are utilities out there to Low-Level
format IDE drives, as well? You don't need to have SCSI drives to be
able to scrub them squeaky clean; and in a world of increasing viral
attacks, people should educate themselves on this issue. For whatever
reason, periodically it is just a good idea to scrub your drives. As I
mentioned previously, NO virus, worm, trojan, or other nasty can survive
a Low-Level format. The Low-Level format takes your hard drive down to
the condition it was in when it left the factory (this, from IBM and
Seagate technicians, independent of one another). From the Maxtor PDF:

LOW LEVEL FORMAT, Quick or Full Test:
!! Warning!! These tests are data destructive, all user information on
the hard drive is removed. Maxtor recommends you backup all critical
data and remove other hard drives before performing this test. Perform
this test only if all other tests have passed (or by direction of Maxtor
Technical Support) but the hard drive is still not performing correctly.
.. . . The full LLF overwrites a pattern of zeros to all sectors on the
drive. High capacity hard drives take longer to complete. Allow
sufficient time to complete the test. Several hours to overnight may be
needed. A full Low Level Format remains the most effective test for a
drive with intermittent problems.

Every hard drive manufacturer has their own little utility; they are a
free download; they are small enough to fit on floppy(ies); and they run
as a BOOT option, SEPARATE from Windows. They have (increasingly)
lovely little GUI's -- these aren't ugly black-screen DOS command-line
utilities, but full-color little programs, mouse enabled, VERY user
friendly, and usually with extensive Help. They offer a Quick LLF or a
Full LLF. ALWAYS do the Full LLF, since virii can infect your MBS
(Master Boot Sector), and a Quick LLF will not reach that far back. I
can't emphasize enough how important this is. My 181 GB Seagate Full
LLFs in about 4 hours.

These little programs are also, uh, smart heh heh: They sniff your
drives and can frequently tell if you're using their utility on someone
ELSE's brand; so be prepared to hunt down the one specific to your mfg
if you don't want to invite an automatic reboot.

Although I have three different brands of hard drives in my P6DGU, I
_hugely_ prefer both the GUI and the reliability of the IBM / HITACHI
utility, called Drive Fitness Test. Both Maxtor and Seagate have
Caldera-based utilities and are neither as reliable (Powermax),
forgiving (Seagate), or features rich. Here are some links. I highly
recommend you burn their ISO version to a CD for a much more pleasant
experience.
___________________________________________________
For **ANY** HARD DRIVE (not just IBM / HITACHI) I highly recommend you use
DRIVE FITNESS TEST \ Erase Disk
http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm
___________________________________________________
If you want to use SEAGATE's utility, be prepared to have at least _1_
SEAGATE drive cabled or you Do Not Pass Go, you Do Not Collect $200, and
you Do Not even get to launch the program. You'll say in a DOS screen
with a rude instruction to CNTL+ALT+DEL and no further explanation. If
you are permitted to access the program, you'll find a lovely interface;
but . . . meh. I still prefer IBM's DFT and 16 colors is good 'nuff for
me.
DISCWIZARD
http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/drivers/discwiz.html
___________________________________________________
MAXTOR has two utilities. The basic one is called MaxBlast, and I
haven't tested it because I used the ISO Powermax version. I have never
gotten this utility to work, not once. Not only is the interface ugly,
a 90-second test HANGS, and there is a paucity of data. Perhaps
MaxBlast works better.
POWERMAX \ Low Level Format
http://www.maxtor.com/en/support/downloads/powermax.htm
http://www.maxtor.com/en/support/downloads/maxblast3.htm
___________________________________________________
And lastly, Ultimate Boot CD also has a nice portal (typically
maintained and up-to-date) on HDD mfg utility links at
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com
There is nothing interesting in that PDF, at least from your original
problem perspective.

My toner cartridge thanks you Peter lol. ;)
(my eyes, too)
And I advise to leave cables properly attached, right from the beginning.

I see.
I was thinking about this last night from a purely logical perspective,
and have to say I'm leaning toward doing that only because neither
option worked previously ANYWAY. Well, if neither option worked
previously, a fully-cabled Setup option has as much of a chance at
success as a repeat-CABLE/REBOOT option; and if I don't try it now, I'll
never know if it would have worked.

One thing will be different this time (well, many things really, since I
am armed with literature and hefty DOS utilities): I will, as before,
low-level format all four of the drives first, to remove any ghost of a
previous MBR, NTLDR, BOOT.INI, or anything else that may have been left
from prior attempts; but when I run Setup, I am going to NTFS —>only the
one IBM (18 GB) C:\ drive<— and leave the other 3 drives in their
nascent low-level formatted state . . . to be NTFS'd as Basic drives
from within Windows 2000.

Either way I'll report back on the system for the benefit of others who
might suffer this same process, and want to know what my results were.

Angel
 
R

Rod Speed

CURIOUS ANGEL said:
Peter wrote
I see.
I was thinking about this last night from a purely logical perspective,

Tad radical |-)
and have to say I'm leaning toward doing that only
because neither option worked previously ANYWAY.

The reason the previous approaches didnt work was
JUST because you physically disconnected the DVD
drive you installed 2K from. If you just give it the letter
you want instead, you wont see drive letters changing.
Well, if neither option worked previously, a fully-cabled Setup option has as
much of a chance at success as a repeat-CABLE/REBOOT option;

The only advantage with the non fully cabled approach
is that you have more control over what letters drives
get if you add the extra drives back one by one.

Basically they get letters in the order they are added.

I assumed you wanted to be able to completely control
the letters the drives got, because you had scripts etc
that used specific drive letters that you wanted to carry
over to the new install. If you dont need to control which
letters drives get, and just want to ensure the letters
dont change later, the fully cabled route will be fine.
and if I don't try it now, I'll never know if it would have worked.

Yeah, quite a bit to be said for carefully testing the
alternatives at this stage, while the drives are empty.
One thing will be different this time (well, many things really,
since I am armed with literature and hefty DOS utilities): I will,
as before, low-level format all four of the drives first, to remove
any ghost of a previous MBR, NTLDR, BOOT.INI, or anything else that may have
been left from prior attempts; but when I run Setup, I am going to NTFS —>only
the one IBM (18 GB) C:\ drive<— and leave the other 3 drives in their nascent
low-level formatted state . . . to be NTFS'd as Basic drives from within
Windows 2000.

Yeah, its generally best to do it in 2K,
some of the utes can bugger things up.
Either way I'll report back on the system for the benefit of others who might
suffer this same process, and want to know what my results were.

Even if you end up hanging yourself in disgust ? |-)
 
F

Fred

whose name means "stinks of piss; feels said:
Tad radical |-) The reason the previous approaches didnt work was JUST
because you physically disconnected the DVD drive you installed 2K from.

I have no reason the previous approaches did not work was just because I
physically disconnected the dvd drive I installed 2k from.
If you just give it the letter you want instead, you wont see drive
letters changing.

Who in their right mind would want to do that, Speed?
The only advantage with the non fully cabled approach is that you have
more control over what letters drives get if you add the extra drives back
one by one.

Why do you ask what letters drives get if I add the extra drives back one by
one?
Basically they get letters in the order they are added.

What are these things called added?
I assumed you wanted to be able to completely control the letters the
drives got, because you had scripts etc that used specific drive letters
that you wanted to carry over to the new install.

You didn't get anything?
If you dont need to control which letters drives get, and just want to
ensure the letters dont change later, the fully cabled route will be fine.

Want to ensure the letters do not change later? Are you mad?
Yeah, quite a bit to be said for carefully testing the alternatives at
this stage, while the drives are empty.

Are you a cautious person?
Yeah, its generally best to do it in 2K, some of the utes can bugger
things up.

Some people can't hit bottom.
Even if you end up hanging yourself in disgust?

I don't have time for this stupid shit.

Plenty.—Worse.
 
P

Peter

Peter, I do hope you know there are utilities out there to Low-Level
format IDE drives, as well?

OK. They are some. But last time I did low level format,
it was for 3650 Miniscribe MFM formatted as RLL, to play with
increased capacity. Never used LLF since then.
I just use OS to remove partitions, volumes etc.
beginning.

I see.
I was thinking about this last night from a purely logical perspective,
and have to say I'm leaning toward doing that only because neither
option worked previously ANYWAY. Well, if neither option worked
previously, a fully-cabled Setup option has as much of a chance at
success as a repeat-CABLE/REBOOT option; and if I don't try it now, I'll
never know if it would have worked.

One thing will be different this time (well, many things really, since I
am armed with literature and hefty DOS utilities): I will, as before,
low-level format all four of the drives first, to remove any ghost of a
previous MBR, NTLDR, BOOT.INI, or anything else that may have been left
from prior attempts; but when I run Setup, I am going to NTFS —>only the
one IBM (18 GB) C:\ drive<— and leave the other 3 drives in their
nascent low-level formatted state . . . to be NTFS'd as Basic drives
from within Windows 2000.

Either way I'll report back on the system for the benefit of others who
might suffer this same process, and want to know what my results were.

For your own benefit, after each step, keep track of keys in:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices]
(you can export to file). It will help in troubleshooting.

Some people might edit \DosDevice\<letter>: key values to customize
Mount Manager manually, but I never had to do so.
 
C

CURIOUS ANGEL

Rod said:
Even if you end up hanging yourself in disgust ? |-)

LOL Rod.
Now look. Don't talk me out of it, it's taken me this long just to get
up the courage to do it again!!

I . . . I just have to know. That's all I can say. I'll never feel at
peace with this process unless I know I tried. And I really don't want
to feel intimidated by the OS. For heaven's sake, it's ridiculous.

Anyway I'm just hanging around waiting for an unrelated issue to be
answered and then (cue theme from Jaws) heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's ZERO!
heh heh

Tomorrow is D Day.
D, as in M.
(for Maxtor ;)
 
D

David Maynard

CURIOUS said:
Peter, I do hope you know there are utilities out there to Low-Level
format IDE drives, as well?

They tend to use the term "low level format" for those things but they
don't do a "format," low level or otherwise. What they do, as the Maxtor
description you posted below explains, is "overwrite a pattern of zeros to
all sectors on the drive."

With modern drives the 'format' is done at the factory and it's not
possible to do it in the field.
 
F

Folkert Rienstra

Please learn to post.

David Maynard said:
They tend to use the term "low level format" for those things but they
don't do a "format," low level or otherwise.

That depends on whether their drives actually do support the Format Track command.
If the drives don't then obviously 'they' don't do a Low Level Format.
If the drives do support it, it doesn't necessarily mean 'they' use it too.
And since you can't change sector size and sectors per track with IDE there will be no
real formatting taking place anyway.
What they do, as the Maxtor description you posted below explains, is
"overwrite a pattern of zeros to all sectors on the drive."

And what exactly do you think a Low Level Format would do differently?
Btw, that sentence doesn't even make sense when taken literally.
With modern drives the 'format' is done at the factory

Has nothing to do with modern (IDE) drives.
With all drives the 'format' is done at the factory, none excluded.
You have to go back a long way to where drives came without the drive
controller and you had to low level format it depending on what controller
you were using. But even these drives were preformatted in the factory.
Still, even IDE drives allowed LLF-ing after they became obsolete and
it was actually possible to kill a drive by using the wrong parameters
or breaking off an ongoing LLF.
and it's not possible to do it in the field.

Yes it is, except that there is no point in doing it, with the drive
already formatted and not being allowed to change sector size.
IBM/Hitachi drives do allow reformatting of LBA to Physical location
translation. SCSI drives still allow Low Level Formatting.
[lots of bullshit snipped]
 
F

Fred

Folkert Rienstra, <[email protected]>, whose name means "immature and
sings Welsh rugby songs; hates smoking; pinches girls bottoms; likes to call
his penis his 'spooge gun'", ministered:
Please learn to post.

Politeness will get you nowhere.
That depends on whether their drives actually do support the Format
Track command.

That is a great discovery.
If the drives don't then obviously 'they' don't do a Low Level Format.

Don't aggravate me while I'm working.
If the drives do support it, it doesn't necessarily mean 'they' use it
too.

It's nice to have a little grey hair around.
And since you can't change sector size and sectors per track with IDE
there will be no real formatting taking place anyway.

You have spyware.
And what exactly do you think a Low Level Format would do differently?

What you think I was thinking is irrelevant, Rienstra.
Btw, that sentence doesn't even make sense when taken literally.

When does your shift start?
Has nothing to do with modern (IDE) drives.

Surely something?
With all drives the 'format' is done at the factory, none excluded.

All you have to do is stick to your wish to live.
You have to go back a long way to where drives came without the drive
controller and you had to low level format it depending on what controller
you were using But even these drives were preformatted in the factory.
Liar.

Still, even IDE drives allowed LLF-ing after they became obsolete and it
was actually possible to kill a drive by using the wrong parameters or
breaking off an ongoing LLF.

You have spyware.
Yes it is, except that there is no point in doing it, with the drive
already formatted and not being allowed to change sector size.

It sure would make life easy.
IBM/Hitachi drives do allow reformatting of LBA to Physical location
translation SCSI drives still allow Low Level Formatting.

Hey. There'll be none of that.
[lots of bullshit snipped].

I don't want to talk to you.
 
R

Rod Speed

Folkert Rienstra said:
Please learn to post.

Get ****ed.
That depends on whether their drives actually
do support the Format Track command.

It actually depends on what the drive does with one.
If the drives don't then obviously 'they' don't do a Low Level Format.
If the drives do support it, it doesn't necessarily mean 'they' use it too.
And since you can't change sector size and sectors per track
with IDE there will be no real formatting taking place anyway.

So it aint actually doing a format at all.
And what exactly do you think a Low Level Format would do differently?

Pathetic, really.
Btw, that sentence doesn't even make sense when taken literally.

Wrong, as always.
Has nothing to do with modern (IDE) drives.

Wrong, as always.
With all drives the 'format' is done at the factory, none excluded.

Wrong, as always.
You have to go back a long way to where drives came
without the drive controller and you had to low level
format it depending on what controller you were using.

Utterly mangled all over again.

The early IDE drives did a real LLF. They had to,
because they were stepper motor drives and that
is necessary because those get sector jitter.
But even these drives were preformatted in the factory.

Wrong, as always.
Still, even IDE drives allowed LLF-ing after they became
obsolete and it was actually possible to kill a drive by using
the wrong parameters or breaking off an ongoing LLF.
Yes it is, except that there is no point in doing it, with the drive
already formatted and not being allowed to change sector size.

Wrong, as always.
IBM/Hitachi drives do allow reformatting
of LBA to Physical location translation.

That aint 'reformatting'
 

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