Computer will not shut down after installing Security Update KB2393802


K

Ken Springer

I'm "rebuilding" an old Gateway E-4600 computer, to give away via a
local social agency. And I've run into some strange happenings, just
short of being "possessed", that I've never come across before. :)

Operating system is XP Home, and the COA product ID is valid.

As I write this, I'm in the midst of the 3rd attempt to get all updates
to install *without* preventing the computer from shutting down. Each
install has given me minor differences in the updates available, but I
didn't keep sufficiently detailed records of what was offered to be
specific in those differences. :-( I'll know better from here on out!
LOL

I didn't realize a problem existed in the shutdown until I was almost
finished with the first rebuild, which included software installation.

During the second and third rebuilds, I extensively used System Restore
to isolate any problem, and found the following:

KB 2393802 Security Update for Windows prevents the computer from
shutting down using shutdown from XP. The only way I've found to shut
it down is to hold the power button in or unplug the computer. I didn't
actually unplug it, but that obviously has to work! LOL

More interestingly, the KB article refers to Intel and AMD graphic
adapters, and this computer has an NVIDIA GeForce2 MX/MX 400 display
adapter (via Belarc Advisor).

I'm still trying to find an answer online, but nothing so far. :-(

Thoughts and suggestions?


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 5.0
Thunderbird 5.0
LibreOffice 3.3.3
 
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P

Paul

Ken said:
I'm "rebuilding" an old Gateway E-4600 computer, to give away via a
local social agency. And I've run into some strange happenings, just
short of being "possessed", that I've never come across before. :)

Operating system is XP Home, and the COA product ID is valid.

As I write this, I'm in the midst of the 3rd attempt to get all updates
to install *without* preventing the computer from shutting down. Each
install has given me minor differences in the updates available, but I
didn't keep sufficiently detailed records of what was offered to be
specific in those differences. :-( I'll know better from here on out!
LOL

I didn't realize a problem existed in the shutdown until I was almost
finished with the first rebuild, which included software installation.

During the second and third rebuilds, I extensively used System Restore
to isolate any problem, and found the following:

KB 2393802 Security Update for Windows prevents the computer from
shutting down using shutdown from XP. The only way I've found to shut
it down is to hold the power button in or unplug the computer. I didn't
actually unplug it, but that obviously has to work! LOL

More interestingly, the KB article refers to Intel and AMD graphic
adapters, and this computer has an NVIDIA GeForce2 MX/MX 400 display
adapter (via Belarc Advisor).

I'm still trying to find an answer online, but nothing so far. :-(

Thoughts and suggestions?

http://blogs.technet.com/b/asiasupp...007f-after-installing-ms11-011-kb2393802.aspx

"We have heard numerous reports of systems experiencing a BSOD after
applying this update, and we have been able to confirm this issue
results from kernel stack exhaustion. KB 2393802 leaves less stack
space available in the Windows kernel for other kernel modules to use."

http://www.symantec.com/connect/forums/pgp-wde-blue-screen-after-kb2393802

"Results of the investigation

After reviewing a number of memory dump files, our engineering team
has determined the following:

* Windows XP leaves approximately 12,000 bytes of shared stack space for
kernel modules to share.
* Windows provides no way to identify available stack space; it just BSODs
when the stack overruns.
* PGP WDE 10.0.2 and below use approximately 600 bytes of stack space.
* In the PGP WDE 10.1, we proactively reduced this to approximately 100 bytes
of stack space.
* KB 2393802 leaves less stack space available in the Windows kernel for
other kernel modules to use.
* PGP WDE (pgpwded.sys) is generally the last driver loaded. As a result,
when we try to grab our modest stack space, the blue screen will display
our driver name as the responsible driver.
* In our testing, almost every system suffering from this problem used the
Intel graphics driver. This uses about 7,000 bytes(!) of stack space.
Without this single driver using over half of this available shared resource,
there would be plenty of room for the WDE driver.
"

But your machine probably has a separate graphics card, and not integrated Intel.
(It's a P4 with RDRAM as far as I know, and I don't think they did integrated
graphics in the associated chipsets.)

Stack space is used for things like subroutine calls, and I didn't think it
was used for other purposes. And that's probably why that space is so small
to begin with. Being the home of the kernel, that 12000 bytes isn't used
by applications, and the quality of code running there, has to be a lot
better than your general purpose software. (Otherwise, it would have been
crash city before KB2393802.)

Have you checked the Event Log ? It's probably too late, when something
like that happens, for an entry in the Event Log, but take a look and see.

Paul
 
T

Tim Meddick

After Automatic Updates tried and failed to install :

Microsoft Security Essentials Client Update Package - KB2544035

....I found on reboot, that MSSE was completely gone from my computer!!

Had to download the latest copy of MSSE and re-install it!

I, for one, will not be in any hurry to allow auto-updates for MSSE to go
ahead in future.

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :)
 
K

Ken Springer

Hi, Paul,

Ken Springer wrote:

http://blogs.technet.com/b/asiasupp...007f-after-installing-ms11-011-kb2393802.aspx


"We have heard numerous reports of systems experiencing a BSOD after
applying this update, and we have been able to confirm this issue
results from kernel stack exhaustion. KB 2393802 leaves less stack
space available in the Windows kernel for other kernel modules to use."

<snip>

I've not had a single BSOD during this whole thing. It doesn't matter
how I try to select "Shutdown", the computer simply reboots just as if
I'd selected Restart instead.
But your machine probably has a separate graphics card, and not
integrated Intel.
(It's a P4 with RDRAM as far as I know, and I don't think they did
integrated
graphics in the associated chipsets.)

Correct, it's an Nvidia card as I stated in the original post. :)

Have you checked the Event Log ? It's probably too late, when something
like that happens, for an entry in the Event Log, but take a look and see.

I never thought of that. But as I do this for fun more than anything
else, I'm not sure what to look for in the Event Log. I can easily
install the update once more, and then check the log.

What do you think I would be looking for in the log?


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 5.0
Thunderbird 5.0
LibreOffice 3.3.3
 
K

Ken Springer

Hi, Tim,

After Automatic Updates tried and failed to install :

Microsoft Security Essentials Client Update Package - KB2544035

...I found on reboot, that MSSE was completely gone from my computer!!

Had to download the latest copy of MSSE and re-install it!

I, for one, will not be in any hurry to allow auto-updates for MSSE to
go ahead in future.

I've never had a problem like that, nor the one I'm currently having.
But those constant fixes and stuff is what drove me to the Mac when my
Windows XP machine died. Multiple hardware failures.

But I need to find a solution for this before I give the system away. I
want the automatic updates to work in case the new owners are pretty
much computer illiterate. I want to give them a computer that will be
as (potentially) trouble free as possible.

And as I suspected, with Auto Update turned on, it installed KB2393802,
and the computer wouldn't shut down.

Maybe I'll have to resort to MS's stupid-a**ed forum help area.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 5.0
Thunderbird 5.0
LibreOffice 3.3.3
 
P

Paul

Ken said:
Hi, Paul,





<snip>

I've not had a single BSOD during this whole thing. It doesn't matter
how I try to select "Shutdown", the computer simply reboots just as if
I'd selected Restart instead.


Correct, it's an Nvidia card as I stated in the original post. :)



I never thought of that. But as I do this for fun more than anything
else, I'm not sure what to look for in the Event Log. I can easily
install the update once more, and then check the log.

What do you think I would be looking for in the log?

If you haven't cleared the Event Log, wouldn't any evidence still be there ?

You're looking for any message created by the action of the reboot.

If you wanted, you could also disable automatic restarts, which would cause
the thing to BSOD and stay put, until you copy the screen.

In the System Control Panel, somewhere in Advanced (untick "Automatically Restart")

http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/websearch/190A57D2D4E6B187862570BD00831ABF/$FILE/SR_restart.gif

If you untick that box, then it won't restart, and you should then see a blue screen.
Since the problem is a kernel issue, the error code should be related to that.

If you have a digital camera, you can always take a picture of the blue screen,
so you won't have to write it down by hand.

Paul
 
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Paul

Ken said:
Maybe I'll have to resort to MS's stupid-a**ed forum help area.

Ouch. We don't want that to happen.

Microsoft has some sort of support for Windows Update related issues.

https://support.microsoft.com/oas/default.aspx?gprid=1173&st=1&wfxredirect=1&sd=gn

Try the phone number here for example. Or burrow down to this
page, using the previous link (as the phone number may be
computed based on geolocation when *you* load the page).

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/install3

"This product may qualify for no-charge Windows Update support.
You may choose from the following support options:

* Call Microsoft at (866) xxx-xxxx"

HTH,
Paul
 
K

Ken Springer

Hi, Paul,

If you haven't cleared the Event Log, wouldn't any evidence still be
there ?

Logically, it would be. But apparently XP doesn't consider this to be a
problem. :) There are no warnings or errors involving a restart
instead of a shut down. Only timeouts when a service fails to start in
a specified time, and the anti-virus program not starting as it should.
You're looking for any message created by the action of the reboot.

As noted above, there is...... nada! LOL
If you wanted, you could also disable automatic restarts, which would cause
the thing to BSOD and stay put, until you copy the screen.

I'd stumbled onto this recommendation earlier in my search for a
solution. It didn't work then, and it doesn't work now. No BSOD.

If you post a reply to this, please don't expect a reply until Sunday,
although a reply may happen. I have to work tomorrow, and it will be
long and hard. I'm an engineer, but the technology is at the opposite
end of the technology spectrum. I'm a steam locomotive engineer for a
local narrow gauge railroad. :)

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 5.0
Thunderbird 5.0
LibreOffice 3.3.3
 
K

Ken Springer

Ouch. We don't want that to happen.

Microsoft has some sort of support for Windows Update related issues.

https://support.microsoft.com/oas/default.aspx?gprid=1173&st=1&wfxredirect=1&sd=gn

It would be nice if, when you check the Microsoft Answers link, it would
tell you how many pages the search comes up with. :-(

As with the other subtopic in this thread, a phone call will have to
wait until Sunday at the earliest.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 5.0
Thunderbird 5.0
LibreOffice 3.3.3
 
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K

Ken Springer

I'm "rebuilding" an old Gateway E-4600 computer, to give away via a
local social agency. And I've run into some strange happenings, just
short of being "possessed", that I've never come across before. :)

IT'S FIXED!!!!!!!!

I cannot begin to tell you how many hours I've spent on this, including
working with MS's tech support people in India, who eventually gave up.
The support ticket was filed as "non-resolved".

I won't bore anyone with the gory details, but changing out the network
card solved the problem. The computer has shut down every time since
swapping the cards.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3
 

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