Complete Crash without Blue Screen

[Don Deacon]

I upgraded to Vista about a month ago and since then my computer (used as a
PVR) just keeps crashing. It is not even crashing with a blue screen, it
just completely shuts off. After one of these crashes, I can't just power
the PC back on either, I have to disconnect the power supply, flip the power
switch, reconnect the power supply then boot. I'd swear it was just a HW
problem myself but something is telling me it is a driver issue of some sort
as I can boot into Safe Mode and it never seems to happen (I have all the
latest drivers as well). I've looked through event viewer and I can't find
any error relating to what causes the crash either. It used to do it a
couple of times a week but is doing it fairly regularly now so I'm leaving
it in safe mode to see if it happens there, but again, now it seems to have
stopped.

Any idea on where to look to troubleshoot? If I could just troubleshoot it
down to a piece of HW I could replace it but the only thing I have is my gut
telling me it is the video drivers. Would like some better evidence.

Thanks,
D

 

[Curious]

Are you sure the computer is shutting down and not just the graphics card?
Learn to restart your computer using only key strokes starting with the
windows button then tab tab and the letter U key so that the next time it
appears to shut down you can try restarting it.

 

[Timothy Davis [MSFT]]

If you have to unplug the machine, it is a hardware problem.

Make sure your components are seated correctly, and that your power supply
is powerful enough for all of your devices.

I would troubleshoot in the following order:

1: Re-seat all components in the system (cables, memory, processor)
2: Check the mfgr website for updated BIOS
3: Replace the power supply for the computer

Most people don't realize that the power supply is one of the most common
devices on the machine to fail - and they often don't completely fail, but
simply become flakey.

 

[Steve Thackery]

This is a hardware problem. Probably either the cpu overheating, or more
likely the power supply shutting down due to over-current or
over-temperature.

SteveT

 

[Richard Urban]

Many of the better power supplies have a thermal overload. To reset the
overload you have to unplug the power supply from the mains and allow it to
cool off for a while.

The big problem is WHY is it tripping out. It is usually due to a short in
the computer somewhere. On my computer it was a capacitor that had failed on
the M/B that was tripping the thermal overload in the P/S.

 

[Don Deacon]

I will open it up tonight and have a look but there is definitely something
about being in Safe Mode that is keeping it from happening. It shut off
about 10 times this morning in Normal mode so I put in in Safe Mode in the
late morning. It has been running stable since then without a burp in safe
mode.

I suppose something in Normal mode could be triggering it to overheat and
trip the PS.

Don

 

[Curious]

Very likely it is your graphics card which is drawing more power in normal
mode since it is running at a higher resolution than it does in safe mode.
This is why I suggested that you try to restart using the keyboard since
possibly the graphics card was disabled due to it's drawing too much power
in normal mode.

 

[Dominic Payer]

If your system has been in use for some time, it sounds like hardware.

1. Check that there is no dust mat between the cpu fan and the cooler fins.
If there is, the motherboard's cpu protection will shut the system down with
when the cpu starts to overheat.

2. Is the PSU failing - overheating with fan failure or component breakdown?

3. Are any capacitors or other components on the motherboard failing.

Since you have to reset the power, the PSU's internal protection is a likely
cause. If you know its model number, see if there is any documentation about
this.

 

[Don Deacon]

Thanks,
Lots of good questions, here is my config:
Home-built PC with the following:
Kingwin Supernova Case
Kingwin AP-450 Power Supply
MSI K8NGM2 Motherboard, using the onboard video
AMD Athlon 64 3200+ CPU
1 GB RAM
Hauppauge MCE500 PVR Card
250 GB SATA Drive
Linksys Wireless PCI NIC
Vista Home Premium SP1

I am using is strictly as a Media Server/PVR. I was planning on removing the
Wireless NIC as I not have Gigabit Ethernet going to it but haven't gotten
around to it yet (but will now that I have it stripped open).

To address some of the other questions, it was a bit dusty inside though I
have thoroughly cleaned it and it is still crashing. Also, the only app not
running in Safe mode is media center itself, I was connected to the network
and in Safe Mode with Networking. Nothing shows up in problem reports &
solutions (no problems reported or solutions).

D

 

[Curious]

I suggest testing without any network connection to reduce the activity on
the system as it appears that there may be some normal background service
that does not run in safe mode may be having trouble checking something on
the internet.
Does task manager give you any indication of other process or files that may
be running in normal mode that are not running in safe Mode?

 

[Don Deacon]

Well this has been crashing all afternoon (every time I restart and is has
done it about 7-8 times) and I noticed it crashes at the same point when
Windows launches and shortly after the Media Center Splash Screen comes up.
I booted into safe mode (MCE doesn't auto launch in safe mode so it wasn't
running those times I said the system was stable in safe mode). I stopped
MCE from auto startup in normal mode and the system has been starting up
fine since then. I'm going to mess around with having the PC running without
MCE running and with to see if it has anything to do with that.

D

 

[Curious]

Can you run MCE if you start it manually after booting up in Normal Mode?

Well this has been crashing all afternoon (every time I restart and is has
done it about 7-8 times) and I noticed it crashes at the same point when
Windows launches and shortly after the Media Center Splash Screen comes
up. I booted into safe mode (MCE doesn't auto launch in safe mode so it
wasn't running those times I said the system was stable in safe mode). I
stopped MCE from auto startup in normal mode and the system has been
starting up fine since then. I'm going to mess around with having the PC
running without MCE running and with to see if it has anything to do with
that.

D

 

[Don Deacon]

Yep. I launched it after boot and left it a while without a crash. Started
it up and it crashed about an hour later. This isn't really definitive
though as once the PC booted successfully it could run for quite a while
without crashing, even with MCE running. I'm going to leave it for an
extended period of time without MCE running to see if it will crash.

D

 

[Curious]

Have you installed the following update?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/955519

 

[Don Deacon]

Actually I think it just installed today. Any reason why you bring it up?

 

[Steve Thackery]

Yep. I launched it after boot and left it a while without a crash. Started

it up and it crashed about an hour later. This isn't really definitive
though as once the PC booted successfully it could run for quite a while
without crashing, even with MCE running. I'm going to leave it for an
extended period of time without MCE running to see if it will crash.

Don't bother with all this stuff. You've been told already: it's a pure
hardware problem. Almost certainly the power supply over-current
protection.

Fit a new one and the problem will go away!!!

SteveT

 

[Don Deacon]

I have already said I know it is likely hardware that needs to be replaced
but am trying to get down to what. I don't think just putting in a bigger
power supply is the right thing to do if is is something else triggering the
power supply to go into overload (my PS supposedly has overload protection
up to 28A on 12V).

 

[Curious]

Just to be sure that you have the latest version installed since it is
always not clear what all of the fixes in a rollup release are.
I still would like to remove or disable your nic card and disconnect your
Ethernet cable you don't want both of them active and I would like to
confirm that your get a failure in normal mode with no network background
services potentially active. Also removing the NIC card may lower the draw
on your power supply.

 

[Don Deacon]

Yesterday I removed the Wireless NIC and unplugged the the Network cable and
fired things up as I normally would and got crashes like normal as well. I
couldn't remove the Ethernet NIC as it is on the MB so that is why I
unplugged the cable.

So I have had it running without crash now though for 24 hours without Media
Center running. I haven't gone in and checked the October rollup yet but
will later today and then try running with MC open. I'm wondering if it
could be a combination of things like this...the video card is onboard and
uses the system RAM for video. With Media Center running, CPU resource goes
up, video usage goes up, using RAM as well. I wonder if a video card (though
it may draw more power) with it's own memory may improve things. Or just
adding more memory. This is my dilemma I could add PSU, Memory and/or video
card but would prefer to do the minimum if possible.

D

 

[Don Deacon]

Well I've had a bit of an unprecedented run without a crash on the system. I
disabled the onboard video on the MB and put in a new ATI video card and
added some memory last Saturday. Had a crash shortly after that but then
updated the video drivers and it has been running steady since then. Not
sure if that helped or is irrelevant. Also I noticed yesterday that one of
the thermistors wasn't working and when I pulled it out, I saw that the
thermistor end had come off leaving a bare wire...pulled it out of the
system yesterday. Bottom line is so far the system is much more stable
without the need of changing the power supply.

D