Clean a PC before selling?

[John John]

How would you know that no one has ever recovered data?
The fact is that even modern disks have tolerances and you cannot
guarantee to position the heads during a wipe in such a way that a ring
of un-wiped data is left. Now you may claim no one has ever read such a
ring but there is no way you can prove it. The sort of organisations
with the resources and the /need/ to do so are not going to talk to you
about it.
So the facts are, I have stated a "theoretical" way of getting data back
and you have stated that no one has ever done it.
Its up to the person responsible for the data to determine if the $50 it
costs for a disk is worth the risk.

PS:
As I said the military destroy the disks with important stuff on and I
have been there when they collect them up and leave you with a room full
of computers without disk drives.

Also if you have any personal data on me I expect you to destroy the
drives or I will bring a prosecution under the data protection act (UK)
for not using due care.

Facts? What facts have you stated? Proof? Have you provided any?
What you have provided are myths and old wives tales! The one about the
military destroying drives is often used to bolster claims that data can
be recovered from wiped drives, but the reason why the military or
others handling sensitive data destroy drives is much more mundane than
what you perceive.

Please provide real facts, not just hearsay. Provide names of companies
who can recover data on wiped drives. Provide academic papers showing
that files have been recovered on wiped drives. Provide testimony from
verifiable, reliable sources that they have recovered data from wiped
drives. I challenge you, or any one else reading these groups to
provide concrete proof that files can be recovered on wiped drives. I
repeat, no one has ever been able to recover files on securely wiped
drives, no one, not even the CIA or the US Department of Defense!

John

 

[Mark R. Cusumano]

How would you know that no one has ever recovered data?
The fact is that even modern disks have tolerances and you cannot
guarantee to position the heads during a wipe in such a way that a ring of
un-wiped data is left. Now you may claim no one has ever read such a ring
but there is no way you can prove it. The sort of organisations with the
resources and the /need/ to do so are not going to talk to you about it.
So the facts are, I have stated a "theoretical" way of getting data back
and you have stated that no one has ever done it.
Its up to the person responsible for the data to determine if the $50 it
costs for a disk is worth the risk.

PS:
As I said the military destroy the disks with important stuff on and I
have been there when they collect them up and leave you with a room full
of computers without disk drives.

Also if you have any personal data on me I expect you to destroy the
drives or I will bring a prosecution under the data protection act (UK)
for not using due care.

As the price of HD space has plummeted over the years if you are that
worried about the data, physically destroying the data is the best choice if
you have data that sensitive. As they say in the movie Alien (or it's
sequel), "Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure".

I also hope your threat to bring persecution was done tongue in cheek
otherwise you have marked yourself as a poster not to be taken seriously.

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

Fer crissake, m'man... the guy doesn't have to worry that the CIA is
gonna get ahold of his computer and scour it for details!

Although you are very probably right, there's no way you can know that
for sure.

Also note that jim wrote "ALL," in capital letters, stressing that he
wasn't interested in a halfway solution.

Folks who ask these kinda questions are giving their computer to an
ordinary person who is clueless - not to add, probably disinterested -
when it comes to things like that.

Again, that's *usually* true, but not necessarily always. Even if it's
true in this case, I think it's import for people to ask to realize
that a particular solution may be good enough for them, but it's not
perfect.

Here's the kind of reply I usually make to such questions, pointing
out both what's good enough for most people, and what's required for
perfection:

"It all depends on how paranoid you want to be. Simply deleting a
file often leaves it possible for someone to recover it, but they have
to actively want to and try to do this. Because that's a rare
occurrence, just deleting it is probably good enough for most
people.

If you want to do more, there are freeware/shareware programs
available that will overwrite the data, one or several times. That
makes it much harder to recover anything.

It's important, however, to recognize that there is *no* way to do
this perfectly. Even overwriting it multiple times isn't necessarily
good enough; there are sophisticated (and expensive) techniques that
can often recover even overwritten data. For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

But if you're not an international spy, you probably don't have data
that warrants that kind of treatment. I'd either just delete it, or
use one of the overwriting programs I mentioned above. Google will
find you several choices."

 

[John John]

It's important, however, to recognize that there is *no* way to do
this perfectly. Even overwriting it multiple times isn't necessarily
good enough; there are sophisticated (and expensive) techniques that
can often recover even overwritten data.

Excuse me, Ken, but with all due respect that is simply not true. No
one has ever been able to recover data from a securely wiped drive
regardless of how much money they had to spend trying. That is nothing
more than a myth or urban legend.

For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

That is another argument that many use to bolster the claim that data
can be recovered from securely wiped drives, it too is not true. The
reason that the US government destroys drives rather than wipe them is
not because data can be recovered from wiped drives, it is rather to
make sure that drives don't leave "without" being wiped, it is to avoid
human errors. If no drives are permitted to be disposed other than by
destroying them then they are sure that no "unwiped" drives make it out.
That way they don't have to rely on Joe Friday's word and assurances
that the drive was in fact wiped, by destroying the drives it eliminates
the risk of errors and that drives "thought" to be wiped fall into
unwanted hand, it has nothing to do with the notion that data can be
recovered on wiped drives.

Proof enough of this is that not too long ago the US Department of
Defense issued a request for supply of services or means of recovering
data on wiped drives and the call went unanswered. No one, not even the
US Army with all the money that it has at its disposition can recover
data from a securely wiped drive.

John

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

Excuse me, Ken, but with all due respect that is simply not true. No
one has ever been able to recover data from a securely wiped drive
regardless of how much money they had to spend trying. That is nothing
more than a myth or urban legend.

Yes, I've seen your posts before stating that. As far as I know, what
I stated *is* true. I will admit that I have not had that experience
myself, so I can't authoritatively refute what you say, but I will try
to do some additional research, as time permits, on the subject.

That is another argument that many use to bolster the claim that data
can be recovered from securely wiped drives, it too is not true. The
reason that the US government destroys drives rather than wipe them is
not because data can be recovered from wiped drives, it is rather to
make sure that drives don't leave "without" being wiped, it is to avoid
human errors. If no drives are permitted to be disposed other than by
destroying them then they are sure that no "unwiped" drives make it out.
That way they don't have to rely on Joe Friday's word and assurances
that the drive was in fact wiped, by destroying the drives it eliminates
the risk of errors and that drives "thought" to be wiped fall into
unwanted hand, it has nothing to do with the notion that data can be
recovered on wiped drives.

What you say makes sense. Do you have a citation for it?

Proof enough of this is that not too long ago the US Department of
Defense issued a request for supply of services or means of recovering
data on wiped drives and the call went unanswered. No one, not even the
US Army with all the money that it has at its disposition can recover
data from a securely wiped drive.

Again, I would love to see a citation for that, if you could provide
one.

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Yes, I've seen your posts before stating that. As far as I know, what
I stated *is* true. I will admit that I have not had that experience
myself, so I can't authoritatively refute what you say, but I will try
to do some additional research, as time permits, on the subject.

First of all, the preferred method of destruction is degaussing, not a
furnace. Physical destruction of any kind is used only for the higher
classifications (shredding and melting for the very highest), or if the
drive is defective and cannot be wiped using software.



Working for the government (DoD, actually) I can state that this is
categorically untrue. There are specific software products that must be
used to wipe hard drives, specific forms that must be fulled out, and
specific disposition and documentation instructions to be followed, but
hard drives are not arbitrarily destroyed just to "avoid human error."
Again, physical destruction is a last resort; it costs less to wipe and
then re-use a drive.

What you say makes sense. Do you have a citation for it?

Probably not, at least nothing universal. Some government agencies,
such as the DoD, are perfectly content to dispose of hard drives that
have been wiped, using approved software tools. This applies to both
non-classified and classified (up to Secret) hard drives. Physical
destruction is used only for the highest classifications, or if the
drive is defective and cannot be wiped using software. I speak from
first-hand experience as a DoD civilian employee whose daily duties
include the of hard drives for disposition.



Fallacy alert. That is proof only of the fact that the contract terms
being offered were unacceptable to those to whom it was offered, not
that it couldn't be done.

Again, I would love to see a citation for that, if you could provide
one.

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

 

[John John]

Yes, I've seen your posts before stating that. As far as I know, what
I stated *is* true. I will admit that I have not had that experience
myself, so I can't authoritatively refute what you say, but I will try
to do some additional research, as time permits, on the subject.






What you say makes sense. Do you have a citation for it?

The newest information that I have found on this is here:

https://www.dss.mil/portal/ShowBina.../clear_n_san_matrix_06282007_rev_11122007.pdf

Up until a few years ago under certain circumstances wiping was
acceptable. A few years ago for highly secure or sensitive information
the body that oversees this decided that they would no longer test
wiping utilities.

Again, I would love to see a citation for that, if you could provide
one.

Charles H. Sobey mentions it in his whitepaper:

http://www.actionfront.com/ts_whitepaper.aspx


John

 

[Charlie Tame]

First of all, the preferred method of destruction is degaussing, not
a furnace. Physical destruction of any kind is used only for the higher
classifications (shredding and melting for the very highest), or if the
drive is defective and cannot be wiped using software.




Working for the government (DoD, actually) I can state that this is
categorically untrue. There are specific software products that must be
used to wipe hard drives, specific forms that must be fulled out, and
specific disposition and documentation instructions to be followed, but
hard drives are not arbitrarily destroyed just to "avoid human error."
Again, physical destruction is a last resort; it costs less to wipe and
then re-use a drive.




Probably not, at least nothing universal. Some government agencies,
such as the DoD, are perfectly content to dispose of hard drives that
have been wiped, using approved software tools. This applies to both
non-classified and classified (up to Secret) hard drives. Physical
destruction is used only for the highest classifications, or if the
drive is defective and cannot be wiped using software. I speak from
first-hand experience as a DoD civilian employee whose daily duties
include the of hard drives for disposition.




Fallacy alert. That is proof only of the fact that the contract
terms being offered were unacceptable to those to whom it was offered,
not that it couldn't be done.

Under the confidentiality rules (Healthcare Business) the penalties for
"Losing" data are high and mostly our old drives are too small to bother
recycling or else have failed for some reason. In both cases a 4 pound
hammer (And safety glasses) is the simplest and cheapest method, with
the drive then passed on to a recycler.

 

[John John]

Bruce Chambers wrote:

Fallacy alert. That is proof only of the fact that the contract
terms being offered were unacceptable to those to whom it was offered,
not that it couldn't be done.

Fair enough, however, fallacy or not, this business of recovering data
on zero-filled hard drives is much like the bogey man, many speak of it
but none has ever been able to offer concrete proof of its existence!
The reason for not being able to offer proof is that it is so expensive
and secretive that we can't even know who can do it! Well obviously the
US DoD can't do it or else they would not have needed to issue a call
for offers on it. Why no one took it up, well only the bogey man knows.
None of the data recovery firms that I have ever contacted can do it
and all of them so far have told me that it is impossible to recover
data on a securely wiped drive.

John

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Bruce Chambers wrote:




Fair enough, however, fallacy or not, this business of recovering data
on zero-filled hard drives is much like the bogey man, many speak of it
but none has ever been able to offer concrete proof of its existence!
The reason for not being able to offer proof is that it is so expensive
and secretive that we can't even know who can do it! Well obviously the
US DoD can't do it or else they would not have needed to issue a call
for offers on it. Why no one took it up, well only the bogey man knows.
None of the data recovery firms that I have ever contacted can do it
and all of them so far have told me that it is impossible to recover
data on a securely wiped drive.

John

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

 

[dennis@home]

What you say makes sense. Do you have a citation for it?

It actually rubbish.
Its just as likely that they will miss collecting a disk for destruction as
it is that they will miss running the wipe on it.
Having been there when they collected them I can assure you that they are
very careful and they will remove drives from everything.

 

[John John]

It actually rubbish.
Its just as likely that they will miss collecting a disk for destruction
as it is that they will miss running the wipe on it.
Having been there when they collected them I can assure you that they
are very careful and they will remove drives from everything.

Could very well be. And yes drives could fall off the truck on the way
to the furnace or disposal site. I don't dispute that at all, maybe the
reason why they destroy drives is for a complete different reason than
what I stated, I could be completely wrong, I fully accept that. But
that doesn't mean that data can be recovered from securely wiped drives.
If you read the paper that I pointed out in my other post it appears
that the governing body that sets standards for disposal of highly
secure information has decided not to test wiping software any more, so
it appears that it is no longer an option for disposal of drives. It
says nothing about the ability to recover data on securely wiped drives,
as far as I am concerned and until someone can supply verifiable proof
that it can be done I will class this in the same file as the bogey man!

One thing that I want to mention is that until about a year ago or so I
too thought that it *might* be possible to recover data from securely
wiped drives. Every time that I answered a question or made comments
about this I always left a small hint that it might be possible but that
unless users had state secrets on their drives they shouldn't be
concerned about it. I have been looking for concrete proof of this data
recoverability possibility on and off for about 4 or 5 years now and in
the past year I have come to the conclusion that it is nothing more than
a myth, no one has ever been able to prove this beyond hearsay. We all
know when the rumors started (with the publication of Peter Gutmann's
paper) and most of the rumors were propagated by companies selling or
trying to sell wiping software.

Dr Gutmann's theory that it might be possible is just that, a theory.
It has never been successfully been translated into actual practice.
Not too long ago researchers at a university (or scientist at a private
lab, I forget) somewhere Down Under said that they had proven that
teletransportation was possible. They stuck an atom in a gizmo of some
sorts and bombarded it with electrons or magnetic forces or something or
other and they said that they teletransported the atom! Amazing! How
far did they teletransport this atom? By exactly the width of one atom!
To this date I have not heard of others duplicating the test, but then
I didn't search for this, so maybe others have duplicate the feat. But
even if they did, does that mean that teletransportation is actually
practically possible? If your toaster is broken can you call the
hardware store and tell them to teletransport a toaster to your house?
Can I step in a box and teletransport myself from this frigid Canadian
winter to a warm summer day in Australia? No, teletransportation is no
more than fiction to be carried out by Captain Kirk and the crew of the
U.S.S. Enterprise, and data recovery on securely wiped drives is also
fiction as far as I am concerned.

But I am open to change, I will take a different point of view if anyone
can find this elusive data recovery method, in my 4 or 5 years of
searching I could not find a shred of evidence of this being possible,
so now I ask others to pitch in and find actual proof of it! Simple
enough isn't it? I am not insulting or demeaning anyone, based on my
research I have simply come to the conclusion that it doesn't exist. So
now I ask others to show me the actual evidence that they have found,
simple enough, isn't it?

If you want a help with your searching throw in the term "HelpHelp" in
your search queries, but don't read into what you find to be proof of
data recoverability on securely wiped drives, dig deeper than the first
paper you read, you will find that the "HelpHelp" test was extremely skewed!

In the meantime I would like to point out that my recommendation for
secure wiping can be found here:
http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/SecureErase.shtml For the extremely
paranoid, encrypt the drive before wiping it and don't save the
encription key!

Regards;

John

 

[PD]

Although you are very probably right, there's no way you can know that
for sure.

<guffaw>

You "experts" just can't resist the urge to show off your knowledge.
Many a time (and I've been here since the first release of XP in
2001), you guys give the most complicated answers to what is obviously
a newb, when you should know full well that the newb won't be able to
follow them.

But to go back to the original topic: I deal in probabilities, not
possibilities. When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is
the recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??

ZERO.

Format the damned drive and sleep easily.

 

[Shenan Stanley]

If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC before
selling it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that
without a format and complete re-install of the OS?

Fer crissake, m'man... the guy doesn't have to worry that the CIA is
gonna get ahold of his computer and scour it for details!

Folks who ask these kinda questions are giving their computer to an
ordinary person who is clueless - not to add, probably
disinterested - when it comes to things like that.

Although you are very probably right, there's no way you can know
that for sure.

Also note that jim wrote "ALL," in capital letters, stressing that
he wasn't interested in a halfway solution.

Again, that's *usually* true, but not necessarily always. Even if
it's true in this case, I think it's import for people to ask to
realize that a particular solution may be good enough for them, but
it's not perfect.

Here's the kind of reply I usually make to such questions, pointing
out both what's good enough for most people, and what's required for
perfection:

"It all depends on how paranoid you want to be. Simply deleting a
file often leaves it possible for someone to recover it, but they
have to actively want to and try to do this. Because that's a rare
occurrence, just deleting it is probably good enough for most
people.

If you want to do more, there are freeware/shareware programs
available that will overwrite the data, one or several times. That
makes it much harder to recover anything.

It's important, however, to recognize that there is *no* way to do
this perfectly. Even overwriting it multiple times isn't necessarily
good enough; there are sophisticated (and expensive) techniques that
can often recover even overwritten data. For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

But if you're not an international spy, you probably don't have data
that warrants that kind of treatment. I'd either just delete it, or
use one of the overwriting programs I mentioned above. Google will
find you several choices."

<guffaw>

You "experts" just can't resist the urge to show off your knowledge.
Many a time (and I've been here since the first release of XP in
2001), you guys give the most complicated answers to what is
obviously a newb, when you should know full well that the newb
won't be able to follow them.

But to go back to the original topic: I deal in probabilities, not
possibilities. When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is
the recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??

ZERO.

Format the damned drive and sleep easily.

What you are actually saying is that we should not answer the questions to
the best of our ability/knowledge - but the best of *your* ability and
knowledge? That there should never be any discussion about 'better ways to
do things' or 'other alternatives' given... ? That any advancement in that
manner is just a waste of time and effort and it is better if such things
just stay stagnant...?

You state that you "... deal in probabilities, not possibilities ..."
You ask, "When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is the recipient
likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??"
Your answer is "ZERO"...

So - based off your answer - anyone *you* would give away your computer(s)
to would be completely unskilled in computing and have no interest in your
old data.

However - how does that reflect to anyone *other than* you?

Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give away'
(only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the computer to
are computer tinkerers looking for another system to play around with and
unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this moment playing with data
recovery tools/capabilities just to see what they can do... Or they are just
nosey busy-bodies who would use this as an opportunity - given a few skills
they have - to learn more about the OP. Or - maybe the OP is just paranoid
about making sure nothing gets out even if the computer might fall into the
hands of someone who might use the data for their own gain. You do not know
the OPs position in 'giving away' the computer, who might obtain it in their
'circle of people'. Their very reason for asking is a black hole for you -
and may be that they suspect whom they will be giving it to has such skills
(or they believe them to) that it makes them nervous.

Also - you only referred to 1/2 the question. The circle of people the OP
(or actually - your answer only deals with your probabilities - not the
OPs - but...) would *give* the computer to may be completely different than
the circle of people the OP could sell their computer to. They did specify
"selling it or giving it away". That throws a whole new superset into the
equations of probability. And yes - you have to deal with
sets/supersets/subsets in such a calculation - in this case.

Of course - I gather from your posting - you are not actually working with
probability or possibilities. You are dealing with WAG's and assumptions.
Not only WAG's and assumptions - but those dealing with only *you* and *your
environment* - not the OP's (original poster) who asked the question.


Scenario:

I know if I was some sort of identity thief - I would look for signs of an
inexperience computer user who happened to be selling their computer and I
would buy it up (likely using money obtained from my last identity
theft/credit card scam (get cash out or a refund on something I did not buy
with my money, etc.)) and scour it for private information. If someone
(inexperienced/didn't ask) sold said computer without getting rid of
anything or just deleting a few files/directories instead of a format -
imagine what I could recover with nothing more than a freeware piece of
software! Even if they did a system restore with a built-in process - some
of the freeware (or more expensive tools I could have bought with past scam
money) could recover data even from that.

Think that sounds like too much trouble? You could be right - but then
again - things like that *do* happen. If I was a thief - the fact that I
lessen my chances at being caught doing that versus stopping and taking
someone's mail, going through their garbage, taking credit card
receipts/information from where I work as I check people out, etc - would
increase the lure of doing such things in private and stealth.


Questions for you:

While the probability for *you* may be low if you *give away* a computer -
just how did you make that probability calculation for the OP?
Why did you leave out the 'sale' of said computer in your calculations (it
was given in the original question)?
Why does it bother you that someone might give the OP a more detailed answer
with alternatives and more advanced options than 'format'?

You leave out that the OP came back and posted this:

Thanks for the info - http://dban.sourceforge.net/ for those that
want it too.

So that we now know they will be wiping the drive to a bit higher-standard
than just a format and that is obviously what *they* wanted.

When giving an answer to someone where interaction is limited - sometimes it
is best to give them many different options and let them choose the one that
suits their needs best, IMHO.


For those interesting in doing whatever they can (whatever your reasons)
when you are about to sell or give away a computer to ensure that your data
that existed on that computer at some time is difficult (at best) to
retrieve (or you just want to read about the methods and discussions this
topic generated in this conversation), I suggest you scan through the entire
conversation here:
http://groups.google.com/group/micr...5/71ecb5f091536425?lnk=st&q=#71ecb5f091536425

Good Luck!

 

[Plato]

If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC before selling
it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that without a format
and complete re-install of the OS?

Zero the HDD.

 

[PD]

Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give away'
(only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the computer to
are computer tinkerers looking for another system to play around with and
unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this moment playing with data
recovery tools/capabilities just to see what they can do... Or they are just
nosey busy-bodies who would use this as an opportunity - given a few skills
they have - to learn more about the OP.  

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

 

[Shenan Stanley]

If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC before
selling it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that
without a format and complete re-install of the OS?

Fer crissake, m'man... the guy doesn't have to worry that the CIA is
gonna get ahold of his computer and scour it for details!

Folks who ask these kinda questions are giving their computer to an
ordinary person who is clueless - not to add, probably
disinterested - when it comes to things like that.

Although you are very probably right, there's no way you can know
that for sure.

Also note that jim wrote "ALL," in capital letters, stressing that
he wasn't interested in a halfway solution.

Again, that's *usually* true, but not necessarily always. Even if
it's true in this case, I think it's import for people to ask to
realize that a particular solution may be good enough for them, but
it's not perfect.

Here's the kind of reply I usually make to such questions, pointing
out both what's good enough for most people, and what's required for
perfection:

"It all depends on how paranoid you want to be. Simply deleting a
file often leaves it possible for someone to recover it, but they
have to actively want to and try to do this. Because that's a rare
occurrence, just deleting it is probably good enough for most
people.

If you want to do more, there are freeware/shareware programs
available that will overwrite the data, one or several times. That
makes it much harder to recover anything.

It's important, however, to recognize that there is *no* way to do
this perfectly. Even overwriting it multiple times isn't necessarily
good enough; there are sophisticated (and expensive) techniques that
can often recover even overwritten data. For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

But if you're not an international spy, you probably don't have data
that warrants that kind of treatment. I'd either just delete it, or
use one of the overwriting programs I mentioned above. Google will
find you several choices."

<guffaw>

You "experts" just can't resist the urge to show off your knowledge.
Many a time (and I've been here since the first release of XP in
2001), you guys give the most complicated answers to what is
obviously a newb, when you should know full well that the newb
won't be able to follow them.

But to go back to the original topic: I deal in probabilities, not
possibilities. When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is
the recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??

ZERO.

Format the damned drive and sleep easily.

What you are actually saying is that we should not answer the
questions to the best of our ability/knowledge - but the best of
*your* ability and knowledge? That there should never be any
discussion about 'better ways to do things' or 'other alternatives'
given... ? That any advancement in that manner is just a waste of
time and effort and it is better if such things just stay
stagnant...?

You state that you "... deal in probabilities, not possibilities
..."
You ask, "When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is the
recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??"
Your answer is "ZERO"...

So - based off your answer - anyone *you* would give away your
computer(s) to would be completely unskilled in computing and have
no interest in your old data.

However - how does that reflect to anyone *other than* you?

Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give
away' (only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the
computer to are computer tinkerers looking for another system to
play around with and unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this
moment playing with data recovery tools/capabilities just to see
what they can do... Or they are just nosey busy-bodies who would
use this as an opportunity - given a few skills they have - to
learn more about the OP. Or - maybe the OP is just paranoid about
making sure nothing gets out even if the computer might fall into
the hands of someone who might use the data for their own gain.
You do not know the OPs position in 'giving away' the computer, who
might obtain it in their 'circle of people'. Their very reason for
asking is a black hole for you - and may be that they suspect whom
they will be giving it to has such skills (or they believe them to)
that it makes them nervous.

Also - you only referred to 1/2 the question. The circle of people
the OP (or actually - your answer only deals with your
probabilities - not the
OPs - but...) would *give* the computer to may be completely
different than the circle of people the OP could sell their
computer to. They did specify "selling it or giving it away".
That throws a whole new superset into the equations of probability.
And yes - you have to deal with sets/supersets/subsets in such a
calculation - in this case.

Of course - I gather from your posting - you are not actually
working with probability or possibilities. You are dealing with
WAG's and assumptions. Not only WAG's and assumptions - but those
dealing with only *you* and *your environment* - not the OP's
(original poster) who asked the question.


Scenario:

I know if I was some sort of identity thief - I would look for
signs of an inexperience computer user who happened to be selling
their computer and I would buy it up (likely using money obtained
from my last identity theft/credit card scam (get cash out or a
refund on something I did not buy with my money, etc.)) and scour
it for private information. If someone (inexperienced/didn't ask)
sold said computer without getting rid of anything or just deleting
a few files/directories instead of a format - imagine what I could
recover with nothing more than a freeware piece of software! Even
if they did a system restore with a built-in process - some of the
freeware (or more expensive tools I could have bought with past
scam money) could recover data even from that.

Think that sounds like too much trouble? You could be right - but
then again - things like that *do* happen. If I was a thief - the
fact that I lessen my chances at being caught doing that versus
stopping and taking someone's mail, going through their garbage,
taking credit card receipts/information from where I work as I
check people out, etc - would increase the lure of doing such
things in private and stealth.


Questions for you:

While the probability for *you* may be low if you *give away* a
computer - just how did you make that probability calculation for
the OP?
Why did you leave out the 'sale' of said computer in your
calculations (it was given in the original question)?
Why does it bother you that someone might give the OP a more
detailed answer with alternatives and more advanced options than
'format'?

You leave out that the OP came back and posted this:


So that we now know they will be wiping the drive to a bit
higher-standard than just a format and that is obviously what
*they* wanted.

When giving an answer to someone where interaction is limited -
sometimes it is best to give them many different options and let
them choose the one that suits their needs best, IMHO.


For those interesting in doing whatever they can (whatever your
reasons) when you are about to sell or give away a computer to
ensure that your data that existed on that computer at some time is
difficult (at best) to retrieve (or you just want to read about the
methods and discussions this topic generated in this conversation),
I suggest you scan through the entire conversation here:
http://groups.google.com/group/micr...5/71ecb5f091536425?lnk=st&q=#71ecb5f091536425

Good Luck!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

However - is it your business to be concerned over whether or not the OP is
crazy/paranoid or wouldn't it just be eaiser to bypass all the nonsense and
give them a way to securely erase the data (ALL data) as they originally
asked...?

Not that the link to your homepage wasn't amusing at least, but it did
nothing to answer the actual mathematical and reference point questions
asked of you...

 

[PD]

jim wrote:

However - is it your business to be concerned over whether or not the OP is
crazy/paranoid or wouldn't it just be eaiser to bypass all the nonsense and
give them a way to securely erase the data (ALL data) as they originally
asked...?

One question: can you bend over and pick up a penny off the floor with
that broomstick up yer ass?

Not that the link to your homepage wasn't amusing at least, but it did
nothing to answer the actual mathematical and reference point questions
asked of you...

Refer to "One question".

 

[Shenan Stanley]

<snipped some conversation for brevity>
Suggested highly that the entire conversation be reviewed for complete
comprehension, and luckily Google does archive it nicely for us:
http://groups.google.com/group/micr...5/71ecb5f091536425?lnk=st&q=#71ecb5f091536425

If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC before
selling it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that
without a format and complete re-install of the OS?

Fer crissake, m'man... the guy doesn't have to worry that the CIA is
gonna get ahold of his computer and scour it for details!

Folks who ask these kinda questions are giving their computer to an
ordinary person who is clueless - not to add, probably
disinterested - when it comes to things like that.

Although you are very probably right, there's no way you can know
that for sure.

Also note that jim wrote "ALL," in capital letters, stressing that
he wasn't interested in a halfway solution.

Again, that's *usually* true, but not necessarily always. Even if
it's true in this case, I think it's import for people to ask to
realize that a particular solution may be good enough for them, but
it's not perfect.

Here's the kind of reply I usually make to such questions, pointing
out both what's good enough for most people, and what's required for
perfection:

"It all depends on how paranoid you want to be. Simply deleting a
file often leaves it possible for someone to recover it, but they
have to actively want to and try to do this. Because that's a rare
occurrence, just deleting it is probably good enough for most
people.

If you want to do more, there are freeware/shareware programs
available that will overwrite the data, one or several times. That
makes it much harder to recover anything.

It's important, however, to recognize that there is *no* way to do
this perfectly. Even overwriting it multiple times isn't necessarily
good enough; there are sophisticated (and expensive) techniques that
can often recover even overwritten data. For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

But if you're not an international spy, you probably don't have data
that warrants that kind of treatment. I'd either just delete it, or
use one of the overwriting programs I mentioned above. Google will
find you several choices."

<guffaw>

You "experts" just can't resist the urge to show off your knowledge.
Many a time (and I've been here since the first release of XP in
2001), you guys give the most complicated answers to what is
obviously a newb, when you should know full well that the newb
won't be able to follow them.

But to go back to the original topic: I deal in probabilities, not
possibilities. When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is
the recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??

ZERO.

Format the damned drive and sleep easily.

What you are actually saying is that we should not answer the
questions to the best of our ability/knowledge - but the best of
*your* ability and knowledge? That there should never be any
discussion about 'better ways to do things' or 'other alternatives'
given... ? That any advancement in that manner is just a waste of
time and effort and it is better if such things just stay
stagnant...?

You state that you "... deal in probabilities, not possibilities
..."
You ask, "When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is the
recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??"
Your answer is "ZERO"...

So - based off your answer - anyone *you* would give away your
computer(s) to would be completely unskilled in computing and have
no interest in your old data.

However - how does that reflect to anyone *other than* you?

Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give
away' (only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the
computer to are computer tinkerers looking for another system to
play around with and unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this
moment playing with data recovery tools/capabilities just to see
what they can do... Or they are just nosey busy-bodies who would
use this as an opportunity - given a few skills they have - to
learn more about the OP. Or - maybe the OP is just paranoid about
making sure nothing gets out even if the computer might fall into
the hands of someone who might use the data for their own gain.
You do not know the OPs position in 'giving away' the computer, who
might obtain it in their 'circle of people'. Their very reason for
asking is a black hole for you - and may be that they suspect whom
they will be giving it to has such skills (or they believe them to)
that it makes them nervous.

Also - you only referred to 1/2 the question. The circle of people
the OP (or actually - your answer only deals with your
probabilities - not the
OPs - but...) would *give* the computer to may be completely
different than the circle of people the OP could sell their
computer to. They did specify "selling it or giving it away".
That throws a whole new superset into the equations of probability.
And yes - you have to deal with sets/supersets/subsets in such a
calculation - in this case.

Of course - I gather from your posting - you are not actually
working with probability or possibilities. You are dealing with
WAG's and assumptions. Not only WAG's and assumptions - but those
dealing with only *you* and *your environment* - not the OP's
(original poster) who asked the question.


Scenario:

I know if I was some sort of identity thief - I would look for
signs of an inexperience computer user who happened to be selling
their computer and I would buy it up (likely using money obtained
from my last identity theft/credit card scam (get cash out or a
refund on something I did not buy with my money, etc.)) and scour
it for private information. If someone (inexperienced/didn't ask)
sold said computer without getting rid of anything or just deleting
a few files/directories instead of a format - imagine what I could
recover with nothing more than a freeware piece of software! Even
if they did a system restore with a built-in process - some of the
freeware (or more expensive tools I could have bought with past
scam money) could recover data even from that.

Think that sounds like too much trouble? You could be right - but
then again - things like that *do* happen. If I was a thief - the
fact that I lessen my chances at being caught doing that versus
stopping and taking someone's mail, going through their garbage,
taking credit card receipts/information from where I work as I
check people out, etc - would increase the lure of doing such
things in private and stealth.


Questions for you:

While the probability for *you* may be low if you *give away* a
computer - just how did you make that probability calculation for
the OP?
Why did you leave out the 'sale' of said computer in your
calculations (it was given in the original question)?
Why does it bother you that someone might give the OP a more
detailed answer with alternatives and more advanced options than
'format'?

You leave out that the OP came back and posted this:


So that we now know they will be wiping the drive to a bit
higher-standard than just a format and that is obviously what
*they* wanted.

When giving an answer to someone where interaction is limited -
sometimes it is best to give them many different options and let
them choose the one that suits their needs best, IMHO.


For those interesting in doing whatever they can (whatever your
reasons) when you are about to sell or give away a computer to
ensure that your data that existed on that computer at some time is
difficult (at best) to retrieve (or you just want to read about the
methods and discussions this topic generated in this conversation),
I suggest you scan through the entire conversation here:
http://groups.google.com/group/micr...5/71ecb5f091536425?lnk=st&q=#71ecb5f091536425

Good Luck!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

However - is it your business to be concerned over whether or not the OP
is
crazy/paranoid or wouldn't it just be eaiser to bypass all the nonsense
and
give them a way to securely erase the data (ALL data) as they originally
asked...?

Not that the link to your homepage wasn't amusing at least, but it did
nothing to answer the actual mathematical and reference point questions
asked of you...

One question: can you bend over and pick up a penny off the floor
with that broomstick up yer ass?

Refer to "One question".

Personal insults instead of defending what you have stated/answering direct
questions posed to you about your response - very telling...

As for the questions - I am sorry you have missed them somehow. I thought
the line above them (Questions for you pointed them out clearly - but I
can see how one might miss that - so here they are once again...

Questions for you:

- While the probability for *you* may be low if you *give away* a computer -
just how did you make that probability calculation for the OP?
- Why did you leave out the 'sale' of said computer in your calculations (it
was given in the original question)?
-Why does it bother you that someone might give the OP a more detailed
answer
with alternatives and more advanced options than 'format'?

Please note "OP" is "Original Poster" for the purpose of this thread...

 

[John John]

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

You really don't understand the issue. In essence what you are saying
is that you would have no qualms disposing of a file cabinet full of
personal/financial papers by simply putting it at the curb for garbage
pickup or giving it to a thrift shop. The simple formating solution
that you offer is akin to using whiteout liquid paper to cover the
folder names but otherwise leaving everything in the file cabinet, as if
people won't be able to look in the file folders because they have no
name or identification written on the tabs. For your own sake you
better reconsider your advice when comes time to dispose of your own
computer!

John