Canon i960 vs. IP4000?

[Traveling]

I have been using an i960 for a year and those printed I ahve mounted in
frames and glass have done well. Those on the refrigerator faded as quickly
as the the store printed ones.

I think that the conditions are the issue not the ink or printer.

One person's opinion

: Trevor Holyoak wrote:
: >
: > I am planning to buy a new printer for Christmas. CompUSA has a sale
: > this week on the i960. I see that the new IP4000 is in about the same
: > price range. Which one prints better photos? I'm tempted to go with
: > the newer one, but I believe that the reason they're in the same price
: > range is because the i960 has been discontinued, and so since it was
: > originally a more expensive printer, I'm guessing it might actually do
: > a better job?
:
: Trevor,
:
: I own the large S9000 and to my regret I must conclude that this
: was a mistake to take Canon at that point of time: We observe
: drastic fading of the images, even in a moderate light condition
: and on the expensive glossy paper. There is a reason that Canon
: does not pop up on Wilhelms web pages:
:
: http://www.wilhelm-research.com/
:
: We have posted an examples of such a faded image. The magnetic
: image frame/holder was covering a part of the image and this
: provided us with an excellent durability experiment!
:
: See for yourself:
: http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/2004_10_12_s9000_fading
:
: Tohmas
:
: >
: > Thanks,
: > Trevor

 

[Robert Peirce]

Everyone has different experiences with ink fading. In the example you
clearly stated that the fading is less with other types of papers so that
ought to give you a clue that it's not always a problem with the printer or
the ink, but with a particular paper. I've got prints done on Canon printers
dating back to early 2000 (done on a BJC-3000) which have been displayed
since the day they were printed and no fading. Prints done on my s820, i950
and iP4000 also exhibit no fading. I use a variety of papers, but not Canon
due to the expense which may explain the lack of fading.

What do you find provides the best life from Canon printers and inks?

Do they have the same color balance as Canon or do you have to tweak
them? If the latter, in what ways?

 

[Ron Cohen]

I use Sensient-Formulabs ink from www.alotofthings.com and a variety of
papers. Office Depot Premium High Gloss and Red River Ultra Pro are the ones
I use most, but I also like Georgia Pacific Image Plus Professional which
has been discontinued. These are microporous papers that are highly water
resistant and work very well with my Canon printers. Although these type of
papers are reported to be prone to fading, I haven't experienced this as a
problem. In the swellable polymer line I have Kodak Ultima and some cheapie
papers from Sam's Club. These are reported to be much more resistant to
fading, but they are easily damaged by moisture and finger prints. Since the
prints I make are usually handled quite a bit, durability is more important
to me than longevity. However as I've stated, even the prints on the
microporous papers haven't exhibited any detectable fading and I've got some
of them in areas where fading should be a problem - auto dashboard,
refrigerator and 24/7 lighting conditions. As to color balance for the
papers I can't compare the output I get against Canon papers since I don't
use them. In the ink area I have done some direct testing with both color
pallet sheets and photo output. I recently got a new iP4000 and I printed
these test sheets using the Canon tanks that came with the printer. I then
replaced the CMYK tanks with old BCI-6 tanks from my i950. These tanks have
been refilled many times. I printed a lot of junk to insure the Canon ink
was consumed and that I'd be using Formulabs ink. The color match was
identical (to the naked eye) and the only way I could determine which ink
had been used was by a notation I'd made on the sheets to record which ink
was used.

I have no doubts that fading is a serious problem, but I haven't been
affected by it. Maybe it's the area where I live and the air quality. For
whatever reasons, I seem to be getting better results than most other users.

 

[ThomasH]

Interesting report. Its the 1st report about 3rd party inks
and refilling with these printers. So far I sticked with the
expensive genuine inks.

Steves Digicams passes a few recommendations for 3rd party
papers, I have not tested them yet:

http://www.freephotopaper.com/ProPaper-sdc.htm

I believed in "longevity and correctness of the genuine
products. How wrong I was...

Thomas

 

[Arthur Entlich]

You are certainly correct that fugitive inks will last longer if they
are shielded with glass from UV or certain pollutants. But, some ink
and paper combinations will last even when unprotected with glass.

Framing and glass, and even better UV filter glass, which is designed
with a slightly yellow tint, will make a difference in fading time, but
good inks and papers can make even a greater difference.

Art

 

[PC Medic]

Cyan failure, and especially the light cyan, is a problem Epson's also had
with their dye inks.

I have noted Canon inks don't do well when exposed to UV or fluorescent
lighting without protection. However, you may wish to test other papers.
The dye/paper relationship can be significant. I have found some papers
that make dye inks much less fugitive than others.

You might want to try either some of Kodak's newer "Colorlast' papers or
Epson's Heavy weight matte, and see if either are more stable with the
Canon inks. There are some new papers being created in Europe that use
new technologies that should provide better dye ink permanence. They are
in testing now, and should be widely available in the next 6-12 months, I
believe.

I am using Canon inks and papers for all my photos and have several prints
(some more than 2 years old)
hanging by tack to the wall. The lighting at work is all fluorescent and I
have seen no noticeable fading on any of these. One of my co-workers uses
whatever brand (paper) happens to be on sale and his mileage varies.

 

[Kennedy McEwen]

I own the large S9000 and to my regret I must conclude that this
was a mistake to take Canon at that point of time: We observe
drastic fading of the images, even in a moderate light condition
and on the expensive glossy paper. There is a reason that Canon
does not pop up on Wilhelms web pages:

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/

We have posted an examples of such a faded image. The magnetic
image frame/holder was covering a part of the image and this
provided us with an excellent durability experiment!

See for yourself:
http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/2004_10_12_s9000_fading

Sadly a well documented feature that was first encountered by Epson -
Canon, coming along later, should have known all about this because it
cost Epson dearly in product refunds, replacements and general lost
goodwill amongst many of their loyal customers.

The Epson saga is pretty well covered in the following sites:
http://members.cox.net/rmeyer9/epson/
http://www.p-o-v-image.com/epson/chrono.htm
however, after a long period of denial Epson finally admitted that this
is oxidation of the cyan dyestuff in the ink. Their original admission
indicated that they could reliably replicate the oxidation by exposing
the paper to ozone in the laboratory and this led to the widespread but
completely wrong belief that the problem only occurred in high ozone
environments. Unfortunately, under certain environmental conditions
(temperature and airflow) the oxidation can occur in pure air to a
degree that is easily perceptible by eye in only a few days. The
problem is more significant with high gloss paper because this uses a
microporous surface, the capillary action of which achieved the high
saturation of colour but also acts like a catalyst to the oxidising
chemicals in the atmosphere it is exposed to. Normal fibre and kaolin
coated papers, whilst still susceptible in extreme conditions, are
several orders of magnitude less sensitive to the problem.

Despite numerous attempts to resolve the problem, with anti-oxidants in
the paper, swellable polymer top layers etc. Epson gave up and simply
moved on to pigment inks instead of dyes for their long life products.
The use of high gloss paper with dye based ink is a complete waste of
time and money since the only way to maintain the colour is to protect
the paper surface from the air with glass, plastic or film - making the
high gloss finish obsolete.

 

[Robert Peirce]

I use Sensient-Formulabs ink from www.alotofthings.com and a variety of
papers. Office Depot Premium High Gloss and Red River Ultra Pro are the ones
I use most, but I also like Georgia Pacific Image Plus Professional which
has been discontinued. These are microporous papers that are highly water
resistant and work very well with my Canon printers. Although these type of
papers are reported to be prone to fading, I haven't experienced this as a
problem. In the swellable polymer line I have Kodak Ultima and some cheapie
papers from Sam's Club. These are reported to be much more resistant to
fading, but they are easily damaged by moisture and finger prints. Since the
prints I make are usually handled quite a bit, durability is more important
to me than longevity. However as I've stated, even the prints on the
microporous papers haven't exhibited any detectable fading and I've got some
of them in areas where fading should be a problem - auto dashboard,
refrigerator and 24/7 lighting conditions. As to color balance for the
papers I can't compare the output I get against Canon papers since I don't
use them. In the ink area I have done some direct testing with both color
pallet sheets and photo output. I recently got a new iP4000 and I printed
these test sheets using the Canon tanks that came with the printer. I then
replaced the CMYK tanks with old BCI-6 tanks from my i950. These tanks have
been refilled many times. I printed a lot of junk to insure the Canon ink
was consumed and that I'd be using Formulabs ink. The color match was
identical (to the naked eye) and the only way I could determine which ink
had been used was by a notation I'd made on the sheets to record which ink
was used.

Sorry to quote so much of your post, but I couldn't figure out a good
way to edit it down for the purpose of the following.

Thanks for the feedback. I will have to explore some of these papers.

I have one comment from my own experience. Canon papers and inks do a
pretty fair job on B&W prints in my i9100 using the built-in Canon
profile. However, Canon Inks with Office Depot paper produced a
greenish cast. This is very subtle, to the point that I could not
notice it on color prints, but it is there.

My impression was you were using Canon ink. Using Formulab ink is
likely to add its own flavor of color-cast. Since all the ink-jet
printers I have seen produce B&W by combining colors, I would be
interested in knowing if anybody has an ink/paper combination that
combines neutral color (which is pretty obvious with B&W) and long life.

 

[ThomasH]

Sadly a well documented feature that was first encountered by Epson -
Canon, coming along later, should have known all about this because it
cost Epson dearly in product refunds, replacements and general lost
goodwill amongst many of their loyal customers.

The Epson saga is pretty well covered in the following sites:
http://members.cox.net/rmeyer9/epson/
http://www.p-o-v-image.com/epson/chrono.htm
however, after a long period of denial Epson finally admitted that this
is oxidation of the cyan dyestuff in the ink. Their original admission
indicated that they could reliably replicate the oxidation by exposing
the paper to ozone in the laboratory and this led to the widespread but
completely wrong belief that the problem only occurred in high ozone

Indeed, thanks for the links. I knew about the story, but I
forgot all about these links. Since we are determent to return
the printer (its a try, probably ill fated, but I will try it
anyway,) the comparable example of Epson's admission and consumer
satisfaction measures might help us in achieving our goal to
replace the S9000 by Epson 2200, or even by the Stylus Pro 4000.
The latest option needs domestic negotiation If I will walk
in home with this 80lbs/40kg monster, I will be in trouble.

environments. Unfortunately, under certain environmental conditions
(temperature and airflow) the oxidation can occur in pure air to a
degree that is easily perceptible by eye in only a few days. The
problem is more significant with high gloss paper because this uses a
microporous surface, the capillary action of which achieved the high
saturation of colour but also acts like a catalyst to the oxidising
chemicals in the atmosphere it is exposed to. Normal fibre and kaolin
coated papers, whilst still susceptible in extreme conditions, are
several orders of magnitude less sensitive to the problem.

Despite numerous attempts to resolve the problem, with anti-oxidants in
the paper, swellable polymer top layers etc. Epson gave up and simply
moved on to pigment inks instead of dyes for their long life products.
The use of high gloss paper with dye based ink is a complete waste of
time and money since the only way to maintain the colour is to protect
the paper surface from the air with glass, plastic or film - making the
high gloss finish obsolete.

Good move by Epson, this gives them clearly the competitive edge
and surprisingly, the 12ml tanks for 2200 are no more expensive
than the 13ml BCI-6 for Canon's large printers!

I completely agree about the argument with the glass! Why than
pay so much more for glossy papers, if the image shall be covered
by glass anyway?

People at Keeble and Shuhat told us that the Epson 2200 has some
bronzing problems on the high gloss paper. They said that the
luster paper is most valued by the pros who buy at their store.

Thomas

 

[Bob Headrick]

My impression was you were using Canon ink. Using Formulab ink is
likely to add its own flavor of color-cast. Since all the ink-jet
printers I have seen produce B&W by combining colors, I would be
interested in knowing if anybody has an ink/paper combination that
combines neutral color (which is pretty obvious with B&W) and long life.

Many of HP's recent Photosmart printers use a grayscale cartridge (either #59
or #100) for neutral grayscale printing. See the Photosmart 7960 or 8450 for
example. Actually, all the printers shown at
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF02a/18972-236251-64340.html except
the Photosmart 7400 series support the gray cartridges.

Henry Wilhelm rates the lightfastness of these at 115 years; see:
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/4x6/4x6_permanence_preview.html for specifics
of the Photosmart 375 printer or http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ for a number
of articles on fade resistance.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

 

[Kennedy McEwen]

Since we are determent to return
the printer (its a try, probably ill fated, but I will try it
anyway,) the comparable example of Epson's admission and consumer
satisfaction measures might help us in achieving our goal to
replace the S9000 by Epson 2200, or even by the Stylus Pro 4000.

Good luck - it took many people to make initial steps toward individual
court action to persuade Epson to even admit there was a problem and for
many the solution was less than satisfactory. A lot of professionals
had their own reputations tarnished because Epson refused to underwrite
claims made against them for prints which had faded within the warranty
period.

 

[Hecate]

People at Keeble and Shuhat told us that the Epson 2200 has some
bronzing problems on the high gloss paper. They said that the
luster paper is most valued by the pros who buy at their store.

Yes, that bronzing does occur. But not with semi-gloss or matt papers.
It also doesn't occur with gloss papers using Permajet pigment inks.
(That's the brand I use all the time - a CIS system which works well).

 

[Anoni Moose]

Trevor,

I own the large S9000 and to my regret I must conclude that this
was a mistake to take Canon at that point of time: We observe
drastic fading of the images, even in a moderate light condition
and on the expensive glossy paper. There is a reason that Canon
does not pop up on Wilhelms web pages:

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/

Wilhelm numbers for Canon BCI-6 inks are shown here:

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,105461,pg,3,00.asp


Also note that there is indeed a reason for the particular companies
on wilhelm's site. Those companies paid for those reports to
have been done (which is a good thing, but still something to
concider).

We have posted an examples of such a faded image. The magnetic
image frame/holder was covering a part of the image and this
provided us with an excellent durability experiment!

See for yourself:
http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/2004_10_12_s9000_fading

That page does not use the "expensive glossy paper" of Canon,
it uses the cheap Canon glossy paper. Note that in the
Wilhelm chart above, Canon's actual 'expensive glossy paper'
(Photo Pro) is rated six times longer than a cheaper paper, and
that the Photo Pro paper in that report is the older version
(had a silent upgrade almost a year ago now -- that improved
longevity to a claimed 100 year rating for "album use").

In any case, certain gases (as well as UV light) can attack
prints that are exposed, so anecdotal stories may be more about
the particular environments than about the product being talked
about.

I wonder what effect natural gas has on prints. Our kitchen
has a gas stove, and certainly a little will leak into the air
when a stovetop is started. Or junk coming out of candles? My
wife likes to have a candle burning continuously on a
kitchen counter (not to speak of the gassified oil and grease
coming off of food being fried or baked in the kitchen).

Mike