Are you sure that belongs in pricelesswarehome.org... ?

A

Anonymous

Hi Everyone,

I just saw an entry for PowerDesk in
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/PL2006FILEUTILITIES.php#FileManager.
The entry includes the following line: "(Liteware) (Registerware)
(Nagware) (free)"

You can probably guess what's coming:

1) I've read in several messages that liteware, registerware, and
nagware are not considered freeware in this group.
2) There is no listing in pricelesswarehome for FreeCommander
(http://www.freecommander.com/index_en.htm) which is not liteware,
registerware, or nagware, but there --is-- a listing for PowerDesk.

That doesn't seem to be consistent with the threads that I'm reading in
this newsgroup.

(In other words: It looks like there is a dent in the side of the car.
The dent might not be a dent---it might be a necessary molding in the
body of the vehicle to accomodate some sort of attachment to the engine
that sits inside the body. Is that dent supposed to be there or is it
an issue that needs attention?)

PS: I'm not advocating FreeCommander and I don't own or use the
software, I just needed a viable example to contrast with PowerDesk.
 
M

Michael Laplante

Anonymous said:
Hi Everyone,
That doesn't seem to be consistent with the threads that I'm reading in
this newsgroup.

Welcome to the ng. I've noticed the same thing. The truth is that if this ng
were to stick with the strickest definition of freeware advocated by some on
this group (you in the back, you know who you are) this ng would disappear.

Fortunately, most people here take a less rigid view. It's kinda like that
classic definition of pornography -- I can't define it, but I know it when I
see it. Generally, we all agree that any talk of commercial software or
shareware is out. Once you get into things like donationware, nagware,
crippleware, time-out ware, registerware, careware, etc things start to get
kinda fuzzy. I consider these all sub-genres of freeware. For me, free=no $.
Beyond that I generally make my own call about how much annoyance I will
tolerate in a piece of free software.

I'm sure you'll find most people here -- more or less -- here fall into that
category.

M
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

I just saw an entry for PowerDesk in
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/PL2006FILEUTILITIES.php#FileM
anager. The entry includes the following line: "(Liteware)
(Registerware) (Nagware) (free)"

You can probably guess what's coming:

1) I've read in several messages that liteware, registerware, and
nagware are not considered freeware in this group.

This group makes a lot of distinctions, but all those things are
generally considered ok to discuss and/or recommend here. It's
appreciated if whoever's doing the recommending points out what the
nags are, etc.
2) There is no listing in pricelesswarehome for FreeCommander
(http://www.freecommander.com/index_en.htm) which is not liteware,
registerware, or nagware, but there --is-- a listing for
PowerDesk.

That doesn't seem to be consistent with the threads that I'm
reading in this newsgroup.

There /is/ a listing at the site for freeCommander. See
<http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/P_programs.php#3302-PW>.

Despite being nagware, PowerDesk was voted onto the pricelessware
list (PL) for this year, whereas freeCommander was not.
(freeCommander has made the list in years past.)

I've always been an advocate of keeping nagware off the PL (though
I've got no problem with it being discussed in a.c.f), but all one
can do is try to convince others during the discussion leading up to
voting. Thanks to a bit of wind and water, I wasn't around for the
PL selection process last time; I don't know whether anyone else
lobbied to exclude nagware. I consider the nags to be a
particularly annoying form of advertising, and so consider nagware
to be a subset of adware, which the PL at least nominally still
claims not to have.

Liteware/crippleware is another matter, and AFAICR it's always been
considered ok for the PL as long as the features it offers place it
among the "best of the best" as determined by the voting.
 
S

Susan Bugher

Anonymous said:
Hi Everyone,

I just saw an entry for PowerDesk in
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/PL2006FILEUTILITIES.php#FileManager.
The entry includes the following line: "(Liteware) (Registerware)
(Nagware) (free)"

You can probably guess what's coming:

1) I've read in several messages that liteware, registerware, and
nagware are not considered freeware in this group.

Yup. ACF's definition of Freeware is "100 percent pure".
2) There is no listing in pricelesswarehome for FreeCommander
(http://www.freecommander.com/index_en.htm) which is not liteware,
registerware, or nagware, but there --is-- a listing for PowerDesk.

Acceptable Ware types for the 2006 Pricelessware List and "ware ballots"
are discussed on this web page:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/2006PL-Procedures.php

freeCommander was on the 2005 Pricelessware List => it's listed on
*more* than one web page. The ACF link:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/P_FILEUTILITIES.php#3302-PW
That doesn't seem to be consistent with the threads that I'm reading in
this newsgroup.

Sure it is. ACF is an unmoderated group. "Free enough for me" apps are
discussed - the definition of "free enough for me" varies. . .

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

Acceptable Ware types for the 2006 Pricelessware List and "ware
ballots" are discussed on this web page:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/2006PL-Procedures.php

Thanks. That page includes removal procedures. :)

AFAICT, PowerDesk should be removed.

PowerDesk has been nagware for a long time. AFAICT, nagware still
isn't acceptable for the PL; that page says nagware is ineligible.
Unless the PL policy WRT nagware changed before the vote and the
procedures page wasn't updated to reflect the change, it looks like
PowerDesk wasn't eligible for nomination. (I've tried searching
Google Groups for a policy change, but I can't find one -- if there
was one, somebody please post a pointer to it.)

Susan, when you posted a list of programs eligible for
nomination[1], PowerDesk was on it. Serveral people nominated or
seconded it in that thread, and I guess the process went forward
without anyone double-checking its eligibility.

[1] <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/95dd603505177572>
 
J

John Corliss

Anonymous said:
Hi Everyone,

I just saw an entry for PowerDesk in
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/PL2006FILEUTILITIES.php#FileManager.
The entry includes the following line: "(Liteware) (Registerware)
(Nagware) (free)"

You can probably guess what's coming:

1) I've read in several messages that liteware, registerware, and
nagware are not considered freeware in this group.
2) There is no listing in pricelesswarehome for FreeCommander
(http://www.freecommander.com/index_en.htm) which is not liteware,
registerware, or nagware, but there --is-- a listing for PowerDesk.

That doesn't seem to be consistent with the threads that I'm reading in
this newsgroup.

(In other words: It looks like there is a dent in the side of the car.
The dent might not be a dent---it might be a necessary molding in the
body of the vehicle to accomodate some sort of attachment to the engine
that sits inside the body. Is that dent supposed to be there or is it an
issue that needs attention?)

PS: I'm not advocating FreeCommander and I don't own or use the
software, I just needed a viable example to contrast with PowerDesk.

From my old F.A.Q., here is the arrangement that this group long ago
came up with, regarding what is and what's not okay to recommend in this
group. However, I can see that backsliding is now occurring and that the
definition of freeware is turning into shit when nagware is allowed in
the Pricelessware list.
________________________________________________________
Adware - Has advertising for other products and/or services built into
it. The "price" you pay for the software is having to give up some of
your screen real estate (and your attention) for the advertising. Adware
is often, in reality, spyware (see below.)
Adware should not be recommended as a solution to a software need
in alt.comp.freeware. It should only be discussed in the context of
whether or not a supposed freeware program is in fact adware. Otherwise,
adware should be discussed in the alt.comp.adware newsgroup.

Betaware - A "rough draft" version of what will be the final version.
You run the risk of having problems with your system when you use such
software. You pay for its use by pointing out bugs to the author and by
otherwise evaluating the program. Sometimes this evaluation is not
optional and when that is the case, the program should not be
recommended as a software solution. Betaware is sometimes recommended
when it is from a reputable and well know author (an example would be
Zone Labs and their program Zone Alarm) and the evaluation is not mandatory.

Careware - The author wants you to send a sum of money to one or more of
their favorite charities/causes. The honor system applies here: you must
live with your guilt if you don't make a donation. Careware is
infrequently discussed in alt.comp.freeware. You just don't see a lot of it.

CDWare - Software that is included on CDs that come with magazines. If
the software is freeware that is freely downloadable from the internet,
then it is okay to recommend it as a solution to a software need. A link
to the download site should be provided when recommending it as a
software solution. If there is no download site available, then it
should not be recommended as a solution to a software need in
alt.comp.freeware for two reasons: first, you MUST purchase the magazine
to obtain the CD. Secondly, such software on most "free" CDs usually may
not be freely distributed according to the EULA (end user licensing
agreement.)

Commercial Software - Costs money. The recommendation of commercial
software is not appropriate in alt.comp.freeware. However, sometimes a
commercial program is mentioned in ACF as an example of a type of
freeware being sought.

Demoware - Software that is intended to allow the user to see what the
full version of a program looks like so they will then purchase the
unlimited commercial version. Crippleware, time-limited software and
trialware are all various types of demoware. The recommendation of
demoware is not appropriate in alt.comp.freeware because it is
considered to be either shareware (in the case of crippleware or
time-limited software) or trialware.

Donationware - Payment to the author for the software is completely
optional. Donationware is frequently discussed in alt.comp.freeware.

Liteware - A free, reduced feature version of program that normally
costs money. The missing features are not "grayed out" (disabled) in the
menu and you are not constantly reminded with popups that the missing
feature is only available in the full version. No critical features like
"Save" or "Print" are missing. In other words, the missing features
might be nice to have but are not critical.
The missing features are simply listed where the "pro" or
full-featured version is promoted. If you don't read the promotion, you
will not be aware that any features are missing. Promotion of the
full-featured version in liteware can be done via:

* a "nag" type screen at startup or program closing
* an inclusion in the help file or the "About..." screen
* a link/ad on the main program screen.

If the latter is done, then the program borders on being adware
(see above.) If the ad is too obnoxious, then the program shouldn't be
recommended as anything other than a temporary solution until something
better comes along.
This is as opposed to crippleware, where removed features are
grayed out and you are reminded every time you try to use one that the
feature is only available in the full version.
Liteware is often discussed in alt.comp.freeware. It should not be
confused with demoware (see above) or crippleware (see below, under
"shareware".)

Orphanware - Software that is no longer supported or offered to the
public by the original author or company. Some people have saved the
original compressed download somewhere and occasionally will make it
available if asked.
Sometimes offering it to others is okay to do and sometimes it
isn't. The main instance where offering orphanware is not okay is when
the product has been improved and changed from freeware to shareware. In
this case the freeware version has been made unavailable by the author
because it would compete with the newer non-freeware version.
With the author's permission, orphanware can become freeware.
Orphanware is infrequently discussed in alt.comp.freeware. Be
careful about copyright infringement when using orphanware.

Postcardware - The author wants you to send them a postcard as the price
of using the software. The cost is the postcard. It's not to much to ask
for their effort and usually, it's optional anyway. Thus, this category
is very close to being freeware and discussing it is not frowned upon in
alt.comp.freeware.

Registerware - The cost is that you must provide personal information
via registration. Some people falsify the information which is
requested. However, since the author has asked the price, falsifying
what they are asking for is not ethical. Registerware is often discussed
in alt.comp.freeware.

Shareware - AKA "try before you buy". Obviously not freeware since
ultimately you are supposed to pay for the software. The recommendation
and discussion of shareware is not appropriate in alt.comp.freeware.
There are several kinds of shareware:

* Crippleware - limited in the amount of features available.
Purchasing the software removes these limitations and renders the
software fully functional. Not the same as trialware, since you can save
and print.
* Nagware - there is a popup (nag) screen at program startup,
exhorting you to purchase the software.
* Time limited - also considered by some to be trialware (see
below)- some of the features or the entire program become unusable after
a period of time.

Spyware - Any software that installs components on your computer which
allow companies and/or individuals to access your hard drive or spy on
your surfing habits. The cost you pay is your privacy and/or security.
You can learn more about spyware at
http://www.spychecker.com/spyware.html or
http://www.tom-cat.com/spybase/spylist.html.
Often, after you remove the software, the files that do the spying
remain on your hard drive. An excellent freeware utility for removing
such garbage is AdAware, available at: www.lavasoft.de/aaw/index.html.
Spyware is almost always Adware and is often discussed in
alt.comp.freeware, always in a negative context and NEVER should be
recommended as a software solution. To see whether or not a suspected
program is spyware, go to: www.spychecker.com.

Trialware - Usually commercial software that is limited in the ability
to save and/or print. The intention of the author is that you learn what
the program can do and how to use it so that you will then purchase the
unlimited commercial version. The discussion of trialware is not
appropriate in alt.comp.freeware.

Viruses or virus authoring software - Either is or makes malicious
programming. It is highly inappropriate to discuss viruses or virus
authoring software in alt.comp.freeware.

Warez - Stolen software and software for stealing other software. Stolen
software is also known as having been pirated, cracked, etc. Use of
warez is usually a felony, (at least in the U.S.) where you can be
punishable by a large fine and prison time if you are caught. It is
highly inappropriate to discuss warez in alt.comp.freeware. Warez is:

* Commercial software or shareware which has had the registration
codes bypassed (cracked), or other security features breached (time
limits, feature limits, etc.)
* Software designed to be used for cracking.
* Serial numbers for unpurchased shareware or commercial software.


--
Regards from John Corliss
I don't reply to trolls like Andy Mabbett or Doc (who uses sock
puppets), for instance. No adware, cdware, commercial software,
crippleware, demoware, nagware, PROmotionware, shareware, spyware,
time-limited software, trialware, viruses or warez for me, please.
 
S

Susan Bugher

»Q« said:
<news:[email protected]>:
Acceptable Ware types for the 2006 Pricelessware List and "ware
ballots" are discussed on this web page:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/2006PL-Procedures.php

Thanks. That page includes removal procedures. :)

AFAICT, PowerDesk should be removed.

PowerDesk has been nagware for a long time. AFAICT, nagware still
isn't acceptable for the PL; that page says nagware is ineligible.
Unless the PL policy WRT nagware changed before the vote and the
procedures page wasn't updated to reflect the change, it looks like
PowerDesk wasn't eligible for nomination. (I've tried searching
Google Groups for a policy change, but I can't find one -- if there
was one, somebody please post a pointer to it.)

Susan, when you posted a list of programs eligible for
nomination[1], PowerDesk was on it. Serveral people nominated or
seconded it in that thread, and I guess the process went forward
without anyone double-checking its eligibility.

[1] <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/95dd603505177572>

That's correct. PowerDesk (PW06 PW05 PW04 PW03 PW02 PW01) has been
*labeled* as Nagware since 2003 but it's never been on a Pricelessware
ware ballot. :(

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2003/PL2003FILEUTILITIES.htm#A570
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2004/PL2004FILEUTILITIES.php#0578-PW
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2005/PL2005FILEUTILITIES.php#0578-PW
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/PL2006FILEUTILITIES.php#0578-PW

AntiVir PersonalEdition Classic (PW06 PW05 PW04 PW03) also seems to
have been flying below our radar. I recently *labeled* it Nagware based
on posts to ACF - see these Jan. 2006 threads: "AntiVir Personal Edition
7.0 Final" and "AntivVir updates - are they still full size each time?"
AFAICT from those threads this app has been Nagware for some time. . .

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/PL2006SECURITY.php#0055-PW

ISTM we need to determine if there's a consensus for removal of these
programs - IOW discussion followed by a PL Ware ballot.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
S

Susan Bugher

John said:
Anonymous wrote:
From my old F.A.Q., here is the arrangement that this group long ago
came up with, regarding what is and what's not okay to recommend in this
group. However, I can see that backsliding is now occurring and that the
definition of freeware is turning into shit when nagware is allowed in
the Pricelessware list.

PowerDesk: PL2006 PL2005 PL2004 PL2003 PL2002 PL2001
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/CumulativePL.php

Backsliding? I don't theenk so. . . OTOH in the "good old days" we were
more tactful. Nobody *mentioned* that the emporer wasn't wearing any
clothes. PowerDesk is a good example - the Nagware *label* was added in
2003.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
J

John Corliss

Susan said:
PowerDesk: PL2006 PL2005 PL2004 PL2003 PL2002 PL2001
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/CumulativePL.php

Backsliding? I don't theenk so. . . OTOH in the "good old days" we were
more tactful. Nobody *mentioned* that the emporer wasn't wearing any
clothes. PowerDesk is a good example - the Nagware *label* was added in
2003.

I missed it Susan because I don't use it. But you're right, it's been
there a while. Too bad, too.

--
Regards from John Corliss
I don't reply to trolls like Andy Mabbett, Doc (who uses sock puppets)
or Roger Johansson, for instance. No adware, cdware, commercial
software, crippleware, demoware, nagware, PROmotionware, shareware,
spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses or warez for me, please.
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

PowerDesk (PW06 PW05 PW04 PW03 PW02 PW01) has been
*labeled* as Nagware since 2003 but it's never been on a
Pricelessware ware ballot. :(

I just installed PowerDesk v. 6.0.1.3, and it doesn't appear to fit
the current a.c.f definition of nagware. There's no popup, and the
definition requires one. PowerDesk instead nags with an
always-visible bar along the bottom of its window, "Click here for
more about: PowerDesk Pro 6". The color of the bar changes each
time the program is used, and there's a new blurb such as "View over
150 file formats".

I certainly consider it nagware, but since it doesn't match the
group's definition, the one which was in place for the PL2006
process, I'll withdraw my suggestion that it should be removed.
AntiVir PersonalEdition Classic (PW06 PW05 PW04 PW03) also seems
to have been flying below our radar. I recently *labeled* it
Nagware based on posts to ACF - see these Jan. 2006 threads:
"AntiVir Personal Edition 7.0 Final" and "AntivVir updates - are
they still full size each time?" AFAICT from those threads this
app has been Nagware for some time. . .

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/PL2006SECURITY.php#0055-PW

I don't have a test machine I'm willing to install AV software on,
so I can't check this one, but it appears very clear from those
threads that AntiVir is nagware by the a.c.f definition. There's a
popup encouraging purchase every time it updates its virus defs, and
the nagware definition is:

Nagware: has a popup (nag) screen, asking you to purchase the
software. You must press a button to get past the nag screen.

So unless the popup goes away without user interaction, AntiVir is
nagware by our definition.
ISTM we need to determine if there's a consensus for removal of
these programs - IOW discussion followed by a PL Ware ballot.

For removal of AntiVir, I don't think we need a new concensus.
Here's what the procedures page has to say about removal:

Programs are removed from the Pricelessware List if they do not
meet the eligibility requirements. If it is learned that the
program's ware type is ineligible or it becomes ineligible the
program is removed from the Pricelessware List.

So I think it should just come off the list immediately. Then if
anyone wants to make a case that nagware should be allowed on the PL
(or that AntiVir isn't really nagware or that AntiVir should get a
special exemption from the rules), the group could consider putting
it back on the PL.
 
K

Kerodo

I don't have a test machine I'm willing to install AV software on,
so I can't check this one, but it appears very clear from those
threads that AntiVir is nagware by the a.c.f definition. There's a
popup encouraging purchase every time it updates its virus defs, and
the nagware definition is:

Nagware: has a popup (nag) screen, asking you to purchase the
software. You must press a button to get past the nag screen.

So unless the popup goes away without user interaction, AntiVir is
nagware by our definition.


For removal of AntiVir, I don't think we need a new concensus.
Here's what the procedures page has to say about removal:

Programs are removed from the Pricelessware List if they do not
meet the eligibility requirements. If it is learned that the
program's ware type is ineligible or it becomes ineligible the
program is removed from the Pricelessware List.

So I think it should just come off the list immediately. Then if
anyone wants to make a case that nagware should be allowed on the PL
(or that AntiVir isn't really nagware or that AntiVir should get a
special exemption from the rules), the group could consider putting
it back on the PL.

Be careful with this one. The AntiVir folks just recently stopped the
nag screen stuff. I installed v7 just last week and got no nag screen
at all on the first update and also none on the next actual update a day
later. I tested again a week later and still no nag. So it's possible
they have reconsidered and stopped it.

My experience with AntiVir is that when they want to promote something,
they enable the nag screen display remotely for a while and then stop it
again. Typically they do it for just a short time, perhaps a week or
two. Then stop. A program called 'avnotify.exe' is called during each
actual vdf update and apparently they can somehow control whether
anything is popped up or not remotely. It uses IE to display a page.
So I guess if they don't tell it to display, then nothing happens.

At any rate, you may want to reconsider removing it from the list as
it's currently as of now (3/15/06) not nagging and hasn't been for about
a week.
 
S

Susan Bugher

»Q« said:
<news:[email protected]>:

I just installed PowerDesk v. 6.0.1.3, and it doesn't appear to fit
the current a.c.f definition of nagware. There's no popup, and the
definition requires one. PowerDesk instead nags with an
always-visible bar along the bottom of its window, "Click here for
more about: PowerDesk Pro 6". The color of the bar changes each
time the program is used, and there's a new blurb such as "View over
150 file formats".

I certainly consider it nagware, but since it doesn't match the
group's definition, the one which was in place for the PL2006
process, I'll withdraw my suggestion that it should be removed.

In the past it was an *intermittent* nag. Shades of Trillian. . . ;)
This post should get you to the pertinent part of a long thread:

Subject: Re: [PL] 2004 VOTE DISCUSSION: FILE UTILITIES
From: omega <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:06:30 -0800
Newsgroups: alt.comp.freeware
I don't have a test machine I'm willing to install AV software on,
so I can't check this one, but it appears very clear from those
threads that AntiVir is nagware by the a.c.f definition. There's a
popup encouraging purchase every time it updates its virus defs, and
the nagware definition is:

Nagware: has a popup (nag) screen, asking you to purchase the
software. You must press a button to get past the nag screen.

So unless the popup goes away without user interaction, AntiVir is
nagware by our definition.


For removal of AntiVir, I don't think we need a new concensus.
Here's what the procedures page has to say about removal:

Programs are removed from the Pricelessware List if they do not
meet the eligibility requirements. If it is learned that the
program's ware type is ineligible or it becomes ineligible the
program is removed from the Pricelessware List.

I agree that removal is *possible* without a consensus from the group.
So I think it should just come off the list immediately. Then if
anyone wants to make a case that nagware should be allowed on the PL
(or that AntiVir isn't really nagware or that AntiVir should get a
special exemption from the rules), the group could consider putting
it back on the PL.

I see a post from Kerodo that says the behavior of AntiVir has changed
recently. IMO it would be helpful to have a better handle on the
behavior of both these apps. IOW - let's let this thread ride for a day
or two to give people a chance to comment - then make a decision on the
next step.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
K

Kerodo

In the past it was an *intermittent* nag. Shades of Trillian. . . ;)
This post should get you to the pertinent part of a long thread:


I see a post from Kerodo that says the behavior of AntiVir has changed
recently. IMO it would be helpful to have a better handle on the
behavior of both these apps. IOW - let's let this thread ride for a day
or two to give people a chance to comment - then make a decision on the
next step.

Susan

Susan, I have to agree with your comment above that it seems to be an
'intermittent' nag of sorts. I do recall seeing this same behavior back
in version 6 a year ago or so also, so it's nothing new. Just installed
it once more tonight, and no nags, so let's see if anyone else can
confirm and/or add anything more to the conversation...
 
M

meow2222

John said:
From my old F.A.Q., here is the arrangement that this group long ago
came up with, regarding what is and what's not okay to recommend in this
group. However, I can see that backsliding is now occurring and that the
definition of freeware is turning into shit when nagware is allowed in
the Pricelessware list.
________________________________________________________
Adware - Has advertising for other products and/or services built into
it. The "price" you pay for the software is having to give up some of
your screen real estate (and your attention) for the advertising. Adware
is often, in reality, spyware (see below.)
Adware should not be recommended as a solution to a software need
in alt.comp.freeware. It should only be discussed in the context of
whether or not a supposed freeware program is in fact adware. Otherwise,
adware should be discussed in the alt.comp.adware newsgroup.

Betaware - A "rough draft" version of what will be the final version.
You run the risk of having problems with your system when you use such
software. You pay for its use by pointing out bugs to the author and by
otherwise evaluating the program. Sometimes this evaluation is not
optional and when that is the case, the program should not be
recommended as a software solution. Betaware is sometimes recommended
when it is from a reputable and well know author (an example would be
Zone Labs and their program Zone Alarm) and the evaluation is not mandatory.

Careware - The author wants you to send a sum of money to one or more of
their favorite charities/causes. The honor system applies here: you must
live with your guilt if you don't make a donation. Careware is
infrequently discussed in alt.comp.freeware. You just don't see a lot of it.

CDWare - Software that is included on CDs that come with magazines. If
the software is freeware that is freely downloadable from the internet,
then it is okay to recommend it as a solution to a software need. A link
to the download site should be provided when recommending it as a
software solution. If there is no download site available, then it
should not be recommended as a solution to a software need in
alt.comp.freeware for two reasons: first, you MUST purchase the magazine
to obtain the CD. Secondly, such software on most "free" CDs usually may
not be freely distributed according to the EULA (end user licensing
agreement.)

Commercial Software - Costs money. The recommendation of commercial
software is not appropriate in alt.comp.freeware. However, sometimes a
commercial program is mentioned in ACF as an example of a type of
freeware being sought.

Demoware - Software that is intended to allow the user to see what the
full version of a program looks like so they will then purchase the
unlimited commercial version. Crippleware, time-limited software and
trialware are all various types of demoware. The recommendation of
demoware is not appropriate in alt.comp.freeware because it is
considered to be either shareware (in the case of crippleware or
time-limited software) or trialware.

Donationware - Payment to the author for the software is completely
optional. Donationware is frequently discussed in alt.comp.freeware.

Liteware - A free, reduced feature version of program that normally
costs money. The missing features are not "grayed out" (disabled) in the
menu and you are not constantly reminded with popups that the missing
feature is only available in the full version. No critical features like
"Save" or "Print" are missing. In other words, the missing features
might be nice to have but are not critical.
The missing features are simply listed where the "pro" or
full-featured version is promoted. If you don't read the promotion, you
will not be aware that any features are missing. Promotion of the
full-featured version in liteware can be done via:

* a "nag" type screen at startup or program closing
* an inclusion in the help file or the "About..." screen
* a link/ad on the main program screen.

If the latter is done, then the program borders on being adware
(see above.) If the ad is too obnoxious, then the program shouldn't be
recommended as anything other than a temporary solution until something
better comes along.
This is as opposed to crippleware, where removed features are
grayed out and you are reminded every time you try to use one that the
feature is only available in the full version.
Liteware is often discussed in alt.comp.freeware. It should not be
confused with demoware (see above) or crippleware (see below, under
"shareware".)

Orphanware - Software that is no longer supported or offered to the
public by the original author or company. Some people have saved the
original compressed download somewhere and occasionally will make it
available if asked.
Sometimes offering it to others is okay to do and sometimes it
isn't. The main instance where offering orphanware is not okay is when
the product has been improved and changed from freeware to shareware. In
this case the freeware version has been made unavailable by the author
because it would compete with the newer non-freeware version.
With the author's permission, orphanware can become freeware.
Orphanware is infrequently discussed in alt.comp.freeware. Be
careful about copyright infringement when using orphanware.

Postcardware - The author wants you to send them a postcard as the price
of using the software. The cost is the postcard. It's not to much to ask
for their effort and usually, it's optional anyway. Thus, this category
is very close to being freeware and discussing it is not frowned upon in
alt.comp.freeware.

Registerware - The cost is that you must provide personal information
via registration. Some people falsify the information which is
requested. However, since the author has asked the price, falsifying
what they are asking for is not ethical. Registerware is often discussed
in alt.comp.freeware.

Shareware - AKA "try before you buy". Obviously not freeware since
ultimately you are supposed to pay for the software. The recommendation
and discussion of shareware is not appropriate in alt.comp.freeware.
There are several kinds of shareware:

* Crippleware - limited in the amount of features available.
Purchasing the software removes these limitations and renders the
software fully functional. Not the same as trialware, since you can save
and print.
* Nagware - there is a popup (nag) screen at program startup,
exhorting you to purchase the software.
* Time limited - also considered by some to be trialware (see
below)- some of the features or the entire program become unusable after
a period of time.

Spyware - Any software that installs components on your computer which
allow companies and/or individuals to access your hard drive or spy on
your surfing habits. The cost you pay is your privacy and/or security.
You can learn more about spyware at
http://www.spychecker.com/spyware.html or
http://www.tom-cat.com/spybase/spylist.html.
Often, after you remove the software, the files that do the spying
remain on your hard drive. An excellent freeware utility for removing
such garbage is AdAware, available at: www.lavasoft.de/aaw/index.html.
Spyware is almost always Adware and is often discussed in
alt.comp.freeware, always in a negative context and NEVER should be
recommended as a software solution. To see whether or not a suspected
program is spyware, go to: www.spychecker.com.

Trialware - Usually commercial software that is limited in the ability
to save and/or print. The intention of the author is that you learn what
the program can do and how to use it so that you will then purchase the
unlimited commercial version. The discussion of trialware is not
appropriate in alt.comp.freeware.

Viruses or virus authoring software - Either is or makes malicious
programming. It is highly inappropriate to discuss viruses or virus
authoring software in alt.comp.freeware.

Warez - Stolen software and software for stealing other software. Stolen
software is also known as having been pirated, cracked, etc. Use of
warez is usually a felony, (at least in the U.S.) where you can be
punishable by a large fine and prison time if you are caught. It is
highly inappropriate to discuss warez in alt.comp.freeware. Warez is:

* Commercial software or shareware which has had the registration
codes bypassed (cracked), or other security features breached (time
limits, feature limits, etc.)
* Software designed to be used for cracking.
* Serial numbers for unpurchased shareware or commercial software.


An interesting list. Fair to say there are one or 2 evident errors in
there though. One of the obvious ones:
Viruses or virus authoring software - Either is or makes malicious
programming. It is highly inappropriate to discuss viruses or virus
authoring software in alt.comp.freeware.

You just discussed it, and it wasnt inappropriate or unethical to do so
imho.


Texture Processor is adware by the definition offered, it pops up an ad
for another related product on closing. But a 2nd press of return isnt
something thaty worries me any, whereas most advertising popups would.

If theres one thing that strikes me, its that there will never really
be a complete concensus.


NT
 
R

Roger Johansson

Kerodo said:
Susan, I have to agree with your comment above that it seems to be an
'intermittent' nag of sorts. I do recall seeing this same behavior back
in version 6 a year ago or so also, so it's nothing new. Just installed
it once more tonight, and no nags, so let's see if anyone else can
confirm and/or add anything more to the conversation...

I just downloaded the latest antivir from their site, installation was
extremely quick and easy, I ran the prog, no nag screen, no problems.
It is checking my C partition as I write.

I have used antivir as my main virus program for years and never seen
it as a nagware prog, I cannot remember details but I would have
reacted and remembered if it was bad in some way.

I like antivir because it updates itself, is quick and easy to use, and
free.
Other anti-vir programs are much more complicated to handle, like
downloading from a strange server without resume, manually unpacking,
downloading of new vir def files, etc..
 
A

Aaron

Does it matter? Users who vote for it certainly know what it does, do you
think simply labelling it nagware will change anything in the ballot?
I certainly consider it nagware, but since it doesn't match the
group's definition, the one which was in place for the PL2006
process, I'll withdraw my suggestion that it should be removed.

Q, you sound like a lawyer. 'Darn! Stopped by a technicality.' :)
I don't have a test machine I'm willing to install AV software on,
so I can't check this one, but it appears very clear from those
threads that AntiVir is nagware by the a.c.f definition. There's a
popup encouraging purchase every time it updates its virus defs, and
the nagware definition is:

Correct, that was true ever since they went Pro/Classical even in the
Version 6 days. I expect every user of Antivir to know this! It's hard to
miss. if it is that easy to miss, it probably isn't annoying enough to be
nagware!

Nagware: has a popup (nag) screen, asking you to purchase the
software. You must press a button to get past the nag screen.

So unless the popup goes away without user interaction, AntiVir is
nagware by our definition.

You know what, this whole rules lawyering thing is getting crazy. So if
instead everytime Antivir started it produces a nag that *went away* by
itself in 60 seconds, before loading up the program, it would be safe
because it didn't count as nagware under the definition even though it
would be more irriating?

It sures sounds similar to the defense for Powerdesk you gave. It doesn't
fall into the literal definition so it isn't nagware, when in reality
it's worse!

Let's face it, just like the crippleware/liteware distinction, whether
people call it one or the other is subjective.

Similarly, nagware itself is accepted if enough people don't think it's
annoying enough and/or the software is good enough. We could seperate
them into "Serious nagware" and "Light nagware" if it makes you more
comfortable.

Maybe if it prompts only X times in Y days it would be light nagware and
hence acceptable, but only if it could be closed by a click, if there was
no click through it's definitely serious nagware :)

Trying to tie the term nagware or even most ware types to a very specific
citeria is a loser's game. Witness how all the attempts to define what
spyware/adware has being doomed, people just work around the stupid
definitions and then say "ah ha! you can't target me because technically
i don't do any of what you say".

For removal of AntiVir, I don't think we need a new concensus.
Here's what the procedures page has to say about removal:

Programs are removed from the Pricelessware List if they do not
meet the eligibility requirements. If it is learned that the
program's ware type is ineligible or it becomes ineligible the
program is removed from the Pricelessware List.

So I think it should just come off the list immediately. Then if
anyone wants to make a case that nagware should be allowed on the PL
(or that AntiVir isn't really nagware or that AntiVir should get a
special exemption from the rules), the group could consider putting
it back on the PL.

If you ask me the number of votes casted for Antivir speaks for itself
without the need for special exemptions and stuff. Voters certainly can't
be blind to the fact that Antivir produces nags!

IMHO the fact they are willing to vote for it, speaks volumes more than
just some abstract vote on acceptable ware types.

Voting for ware types is nice in theory, but in practice people aren't so
rigid as the voting for pricelessware shows.

I don't know about you, but I when I see "nagware", I think of old style
shareware type programs that technically allow you only limited useage
after which they nag you to register.

I agree though things would be different if it didn't have those nags at
the time of voting, and later switched.
 
A

Aaron

PowerDesk: PL2006 PL2005 PL2004 PL2003 PL2002 PL2001
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/CumulativePL.php

Backsliding? I don't theenk so. . . OTOH in the "good old days" we
were more tactful. Nobody *mentioned* that the emporer wasn't wearing
any clothes. PowerDesk is a good example - the Nagware *label* was
added in 2003.

Presumably nobody cares. Everyone who voted on the software, knew exactly
what it did. Adding a label changes nothing.

This whole obsession with ware types is getting ridiculous, we don't like
nagware once it becomes too annoying not merely because it fits the
definition of

'has a popup (nag) screen, asking you to purchase the software. You must
press a button to get past the nag screen.'.

I mean if so i would advise Antivir makers to create a nag screen that
autoclosed in 60 seconds, but didn't allow you the option to click
through. Too bad, not nagware then, since you didn't have to click
through, heck you couldn't even if you wanted to. ;)

So fundmentally, whether someone calls something nagware or not, is
probably based on whether he finds it annoying enough, or better yet he
doesn't care as long as it is good enough to use.

That's just like the whole Liteware/crippleware distinction. Again people
don't like it when too many features are removed that's the whole thing
to it! Trying to make youself feel better by calling one liteware, one
crippleware is just weird. Your crippleware is my lightware!

Remember the whole idea of ware types is meant to be used as a shorthand
to the types of things we generally find acceptable or a way to describe
something. It is not a straight jacket to make all our decisions.

Beyond certain things that everyone agrees like
warez,spyware,adware,sharewarez, I'm afraid trying to stick to the
'rules' closely when most of the definitions are loosely defined anyway
is not a good idea.
 
J

John Corliss

Aaron said:
Presumably nobody cares. Everyone who voted on the software, knew exactly
what it did. Adding a label changes nothing.

And Susan is right about this. Correctly describing the program as
nagware doesn't change the fact that it was improperly allowed in by
those who took the time to vote on the list. I never vote on the list,
so I suppose some people think I shouldn't criticize it. That's not the
issue. Like anybody else, I can criticize anything I like. Whether or
not my criticism accordingly has any weight is another issue though.

However, the Pricelessware list and this group are two different
entities - a fact that many often lose track of.
This whole obsession with ware types is getting ridiculous,

A. It's not an "obsession", it's a firm dedication to defending the
definition of freeware.

B. "Getting ridiculous" to whom? I'm sure there are those who agree with
your position, but you do not speak for this group or even for the majority.
we don't like nagware once it becomes too annoying not merely because it
fits the definition of

'has a popup (nag) screen, asking you to purchase the software. You must
press a button to get past the nag screen.'.

The second sentence is one that apparently Susan added to the
definition. My F.A.Q. defined nagware as:

"Nagware - there is a popup (nag) screen at program startup, exhorting
you to purchase the software."

and this definition was both discussed by the group and voted on at the
time (predating Susan's version) that my F.A.Q. was composed.
I mean if so i would advise Antivir makers to create a nag screen that
autoclosed in 60 seconds, but didn't allow you the option to click
through. Too bad, not nagware then, since you didn't have to click
through, heck you couldn't even if you wanted to. ;)

So fundmentally, whether someone calls something nagware or not, is
probably based on whether he finds it annoying enough, or better yet he
doesn't care as long as it is good enough to use.

Like many others, you are confusing whether or not something should be
used with whether or not something should be discussed in this group.
You would be surprised to see what software *I* use on my computer in
spite of the fact that I don't feel that it should be discussed (except
in the context of demonstrating features that one is looking for) or
recommended in this group.

Regardless, you're employing an old tactic that many trolls (and no, I'm
not calling you a troll) have used in the past. That is, attempting to
prove that defining a certain type of ware is impossible, and then after
you have convinced yourself that this is the case, extrapolating from
this a further flawed logic that everybody should simply give up on
trying to defend the definition of freeware.
That's just like the whole Liteware/crippleware distinction. Again people
don't like it when too many features are removed that's the whole thing
to it! Trying to make youself feel better by calling one liteware, one
crippleware is just weird. Your crippleware is my lightware!

Certain critical features like the ability to save or print have clearly
been defined as indicators of crippleware when they are missing. This
area is not anywhere as gray as you make it out, but yes, it is indeed
gray to a certain extent. This, however, does not mean that everybody
should simply give up and start recommending crippleware in this group.
Remember the whole idea of ware types is meant to be used as a shorthand
to the types of things we generally find acceptable or a way to describe
something.

I don't see it as a "shorthand" at all. Defining ware types is a very
"longhand" experience, as you would know if you'd ever tried to compose
an F.A.Q. for this group as I did.
It is not a straight jacket to make all our decisions.

In an unmoderated group, this is an obvious fact that nobody is likely
to miss. However, common sense dictates that it's in the best interests
of this group to try to stay on-topic as best as possible, and nagware
is clearly not on topic. In fact, many of the major freeware websites
are proud of the fact that the software they list includes no nags, ads
or spyware.

Not only that, but IMO, recommending nagware on the Pricelessware list
IMO wounds the credibility of the site.
Beyond certain things that everyone agrees like
warez,spyware,adware,sharewarez, I'm afraid trying to stick to the
'rules' closely when most of the definitions are loosely defined

In your opinion, but I totally disagree with you.
anyway is not a good idea.

In your opinion again, and it is an opinion that if everybody shared,
the effectiveness of this group would rapidly be diminished.

Aaron, not including nagware in the list of acceptable type of software
was important enough to Nonags.com that they actually named their
website in a fashion indicating how they felt about it.

Your response is full of loaded terminology in an obvious attempt to put
a negative connotation on verious things that you don't agree with.

At least with me, that tactic doesn't work at all. You are doing a
disservice to this group by attempting to trivialize both the definition
of freeware and the common sense of staying on topic here.

As I and many others have said in the past, the name of the group is
alt.comp.FREEWARE, not alt.comp.talkaboutanykindofsoftwarethatyoulike.

--
Regards from John Corliss
I don't reply to trolls like Andy Mabbett, Doc (who uses sock puppets)
or Roger Johansson, for instance. No adware, cdware, commercial
software, crippleware, demoware, nagware, PROmotionware, shareware,
spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses or warez for me, please.
 
J

John Corliss

An interesting list. Fair to say there are one or 2 evident errors in
there though. One of the obvious ones:

That list was discussed and voted on ad nauseum when I compiled the
F.A.Q. that it came from. Not only that, but all changes I made to the
list were likewise discussed and voted on as the list evolved.
Regardless, unless you clearly and completely list any "errors" you find
with the definitions I posted so that they can be discussed, your
assertion is simply what is known as a "red herring".
You just discussed it, and it wasnt inappropriate or unethical to do so
imho.

You are confusing discussing the definition of a ware type and
discussing (a) particular program(s). This distinction was clearly
implied in the list I quoted. That's most likely why you agreed that "it
wasn't inappropriate or unethical to do so imho."
Texture Processor is adware by the definition offered, it pops up an ad
for another related product on closing. But a 2nd press of return isnt
something thaty worries me any, whereas most advertising popups would.

And again, like so many others, you are confusing the act of actually
using a particular program with recommending it in this group. The two
are not the same.
If theres one thing that strikes me, its that there will never really
be a complete concensus.

An obvious fact that applies to life in general. Still, this doesn't
mean, for instance, that the world should give up on the democratic
process just because everybody doesn't agree.

Also note that the Pricelessware list and this group are two distinct
entities. That the list is a reflection on this group however, is a
point that needs to be considered when the issue of including nagware on
it is decided.

--
Regards from John Corliss
I don't reply to trolls like Andy Mabbett, Doc (who uses sock puppets)
or Roger Johansson, for instance. No adware, cdware, commercial
software, crippleware, demoware, nagware, PROmotionware, shareware,
spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses or warez for me, please.
 

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