Are mains surge protectors needed in the UK?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lem
  • Start date Start date
David Maynard did not have an LED clock fail because
utility switching does generate typically destructive
transients.

Eh? So they power input is destructive so thats the reason the LED
clock didn't blow up?

Oddly I've never had an LED clock blow up either.

I guess our UK stone age clocks are just more robust than your high
tech gubbins.
 
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:00:15 +0100, Jonathan Buzzard

I am working on it, taking a standard 100W bulb, because then my figures
will be beyond question.

So thats why when the cheapo f**king wilko blubs blow in the house it
trips the fuse box and all the lights go out. :-)
 
VW Wall has properly corrected something I had posted. The
US Army Traning Manual states 14 AWG wire. But both wire
resistance and weight make it obvious they intended a 2 AWG
wire to earth lightning rods.
 
I still don't see any numbers. Do I have this correct? A
cold filament for a 100 watt incandescent light bulb initially
draws 100 amps when first powered. When that 'powering up'
bulb fails, then it creates a reverse voltage. That reverse
voltage trips the MCB - a breaker box circuit breaker. IOW
when the filament fails, then the electromagnetic field inside
both light bulb and building electric wire collapses,
resulting in a massive current (a current surge) that trips a
32 amp circuit breaker. Does this correctly paraphrase your
post?
 
Sorry for the name misspelling. What British standard
requires GDTs in every surge protector? Does the standard
specifically state GDTs or does it make a requirement that
only GDTs can meet?
 
GDTs and MOVs are paired both for faster response time and
for the lower conductive voltage provided by a GDT. However
GDTs alone were fast enough. At £2 or $3 per GDT, then GDTs
also are too expensive. MOVs wholesale on the order of $0.10
each. Which is more profitable when even a 160 joule UPS is
considered by consumers to be more than sufficient protection?

If they were trying to make a faster and superior protector,
then MOVs would instead be replaced by avalanche diodes that
are faster, do not degrade as MOVs do, and can shunt at a
lower threshold voltage. But again, avalanche diodes cost
closer to $1. Also too expensive when selling plug-in
protectors only for the massive profits.

Jonathan said:
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:38:04 -0400, w_tom wrote:
[SNIP]
An MOV does not get hotter only because its let-through
voltage changes; is below 300 volts or above 360 volts. Lets
remember those numbers posted up to. Surges are microsecond
events. If they damage the MOV, then milliseconds of AC
electric cause the thermal link to fail. But a grossly
undersized MOV short circuits. Milliseconds later, AC
electric heats that damaged MOV, pushes too much current to
blow that thermal link, and illuminates that warning light
LP1.

You are forgetting the GDT w_tom :) I know you don't like
them, but they are cheap, and they are fitted to surge
protectors. As a result the MOV only has to be good enough
to deflect the leading edge of the surge till the GDT takes
over to deflect the bulk of the energy in the surge.
 
There you go again. Lets see if I can make it simpler for
Mike so that Mike instead insults the scam plug-in protector
manufacturer. First you claim an indicator lamp can report a
'degraded' MOV as in Littelfuse AN9310:
A failed device is defined by a +-10% change in the
nominal varistor voltage at the 1 ma point. This does
not imply a non-protecting device, but rather a device
whose clamping voltage has been slightly altered.

But to prove that point, instead you post about a
'catastrophically' damaged MOV that was grossly undersized, as
defined by Littelfuse AN9772:
Varistors initially fail in a short-circuit mode when
subjected to surges beyond their peak current/energy
ratings. They also short-circuit when operated at
steady-state voltages well beyond their voltage ratings.

The catastrophically damaged MOV is also described in your
magazine article from http://www.powerelectronics.com:
In an unlimited current condition, the MOV will first fail
short. Yet, due to the high amount of energy available,
it most often ruptures instantaneously.

The article then describes how an MOV can be disconnected
from a surge to protect the surge protector - appliance
protection be damned. What kind of protection is that when
the MOVs are undersized? Ineffective protection.

So yes, a catastrophically damaged MOV - because the surge
protector was grossly undersized - is indicated by a ruptured
thermal link and indicator lamp. An unacceptable failure mode
because the human installed a grossly undersized plug-in
protector.

But will that light report all types of MOV failures? No.
Because the normal and acceptable failure mode for properly
sized MOV surge protectors is 'degradation' as defined in
AN9310. A properly sized surge protector typically will not
fail catastrophically. And yet an indicator light will still
imply the degraded protector is good.

And so again, an indicator light can only report surge
protector failure when the surge protector was grossly
undersized - as are so many plug-in protectors. Properly
sized surge protectors typically do not fail catastrophically
- do not suffer from "sustained abnormal overvoltage, limited
current conditions". Why? Properly sized protectors are not
grossly undersized plug-in protectors selling at high
profits. Properly sized protectors, also, would never claim
effective protection when the plug-in UPS only has 160 joules.

So how does that light report normal degradation in properly
sized protector? No problem! Instead, sell grossly
undersized protectors. A grossly undersized protector will
only report a catastrophic type failure. Then the naive human
will say, "The surge protector sacrificed itself to protect my
computer". The human should instead say, "The surge protector
was so grossly undersized that it did not provide effective
protection AND indicated its catastrophic failure by even
lighting the indicator lamp LP1". The informed human will
then say, "Its a good thing my appliance was properly designed
with internal protection because this plug-in protector was
crap - grossly undersized".

What does the light report? It can report that a grossly
undersized protector failed catastrophically. But the light
cannot report a properly sized protector has failed normally -
has degraded. IOW the light cannot report that a protector is
good. Light only reports one failure mode - the unacceptable
failure mode. Light only reports that protector was grossly
undersized and therefore failed catastrophically.

So how do we make the indicator lamp useful? We make sure a
protector only fails catastrophically. We grossly undersized
the protector and get the naive to hype this protector. How
convenient since a grossly undersized protector can also mean
higher profits. Since appliances already have effective
internal protection, then the naive will recommend more of
these grossly undersized protectors. What a racket!
 
half_pint said:
[...]

The only dead transistor I have came across had a big hole melted in the
middle of its casing.

Yes, you sometimes find a round hole in a medium power transistor, that's for
attaching it to a small heat sink! I thinking you're winding us all up.
 
half_pint said:
Welll prehaps you are, silicone is based upon silicon
just as many semiconductors are based upon silicon.
Silicone like semiconductors in ICs does not occur naturally
however both are based upon silicon (or similar) and have
very high melting points.


Silicone is not based on silicon.

There is almost no chemical or physical connection between the two.
 
protector only fails catastrophically. We grossly undersized
the protector and get the naive to hype this protector. How
convenient since a grossly undersized protector can also mean
higher profits. Since appliances already have effective
internal protection, then the naive will recommend more of
these grossly undersized protectors. What a racket!

I guess that means the Belkin lifetime gaurantee is a bit of a flawed
business model. I'm amazed they arn't in receivership, what with their
£20,000 insurance cover for plugged in equipment too.

Good job they don't make LED clocks.
 
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:07:41 GMT, "JULIAN HALES"

I know a Russian who was killed while rewiring his house, his name was Sergi

Was his second name "Bhurnthizbollokzov" ?
 
Lem said:
Silicone is not based on silicon.

There is almost no chemical or physical connection between the two.


http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Silicone

"Silicones, or "polysiloxanes", are inorganic polymers consisting of a

silicon-oxygen backbone (...-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-...)

with side groups attached to the silicon atoms. Certain organic side groups
can be used to link two or more of these -Si-O- backbones together. By
varying the -Si-O- chain lengths, side groups, and crosslinking, silicones
can be synthesized into a wide variety of materials. They can vary in
consistency from liquid to gel to rubber."


It can't be silicone without the silicon.

It's paradoxical, however, to say 'silicone' has a 'high melting point'
since silicones, depending on the formulation, can be anything from a
liquid, to a gell, to a solid at room temperature.
 
Bernard Peek said:
I've been running multiple home PCs in the UK for around 15 years and
have never had a problem with mains spikes, or ever heard from anyone
who has had a problem.

You have now...
I too have been running a bunch of computers in my home/office (in SE
England) for many years without any problem, until a couple of months
ago when one Saturday morning we had a surge that blew up the PSUs of
2 (of 5) computers running at the time. It also destroyed my
neighbour's TV, and reset all the clocks on VCRs etc. There was no
lightning around at the time, so it must have been mains borne. Since
then I've put UPSs or surge protectors on at least some of my gear.
 
w_tom, do you work for a company involved in the manufacture,
distribution, sales or installation of whole-house surge protectors?


Tim
 
Johannes H Andersen said:
half_pint said:
[...]

The only dead transistor I have came across had a big hole melted in the
middle of its casing.

Yes, you sometimes find a round hole in a medium power transistor, that's for
attaching it to a small heat sink! I thinking you're winding us all up.

As I recall it was melted, and replacing it fixed the device IIRC.
 
David Maynard said:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Silicone

"Silicones, or "polysiloxanes", are inorganic polymers consisting of a

silicon-oxygen backbone (...-Si-O-Si-O-Si-O-...)

with side groups attached to the silicon atoms. Certain organic side groups
can be used to link two or more of these -Si-O- backbones together. By
varying the -Si-O- chain lengths, side groups, and crosslinking, silicones
can be synthesized into a wide variety of materials. They can vary in
consistency from liquid to gel to rubber."


It can't be silicone without the silicon.

It's paradoxical, however, to say 'silicone' has a 'high melting point'
since silicones, depending on the formulation, can be anything from a
liquid, to a gell, to a solid at room temperature.

Well my Bettaware magazine is selling silicone mats for resting
hot pans on.
 
I still don't see any numbers. Do I have this correct? A
cold filament for a 100 watt incandescent light bulb initially
draws 100 amps when first powered. When that 'powering up'
bulb fails, then it creates a reverse voltage. That reverse
voltage trips the MCB - a breaker box circuit breaker. IOW
when the filament fails, then the electromagnetic field inside
both light bulb and building electric wire collapses,
resulting in a massive current (a current surge) that trips a
32 amp circuit breaker. Does this correctly paraphrase your
post?

First off w_tom shows his lack of understanding of U.K. wiring standards.
Lighting circuits only have a 6A MCB or a 5A fuse.

No I did not say the back EMF causes the circuit breaker to trip. I simply
pointed out the fact that most readers of the post will be aware of; that
a bulb that goes pop when you turn it on frequently trips the MCB. This
means that there is serious amounts of excess energy in the circuit.
Something that you have denied repeatedly as being possible.

What the back EMF does is sustain the surge current from turning the bulb
on sufficiently long enough to cause the MCB to trip.

The instantaneous on current of a 100W filament bulb is nothing compared
to the surge current of an ATX PSU mind you.

JAB.
 
Sorry for the name misspelling. What British standard
requires GDTs in every surge protector? Does the standard
specifically state GDTs or does it make a requirement that
only GDTs can meet?

The one that deals with surge protection :) Surely such an expert on the
subject of surge protection, who thinks that he as sound advice to offer
people living in the U.K. on surge protection would be aware of the
relevant British Standards on the subject? Try Googling :) It gets updated
fairly regularly and I have not seen a copy of the latest standard, 1992
was the one I consulted, but googling reveals at least a 1999 revision.


JAB.
 
You describe a particticular circumstance where a large voltage is
induces on the device and is earthed by the technician so a large
current will flow.

Turns out to be a very common circumstance however. Unless grounded most
people hold a charge sufficient to blow a MOSFET junction.
When the devices are in a circuit board the situation is different and it
is more likey any charge will find a safer way to disapate ( they are
probably
designed in such a manner now any how).

Actually these days most devices can survive a ESD, however they still
damage them and you get a lot of latent failures. That is someone handles
a device without observing proper ESD precautions and then a month or two
months later the device fails. Unless you are doing proper controlled
studies you would probably not connect the two, and think you have never
suffered a device failure when in reality you have.

It is best observed with a microscope a clear packaged LED, the more
static sensitive blue and white being the best. Observe the LED, get it to
suffer an ESD, and look at it again. There will be visible damage to the
device, but when current is applied it will still emit light.
Personaly I cannot recall a cuircuit ever being damaged by static.
Few things will survice several thousand volts going through them
for more than a fraction of a second.

See above, if you handle computer components without observing ESD
precautions you probably have, just you don't realize it.

JAB.
 
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