Help please: UPS - surge suppression strategy

[John Markham]

I hope some of you more experienced in these matters can help me as a
relatively new user get a handle on what I need in the way of UPS and/or
surge protection for a new computer.

Specifically, I've been noticing that various UPS units seem to have
relatively low maximum surge or spike ratings, while of course those high
rating surge protectors don't offer the UPS function.

If my main concern is to prevent my computer from being fried or otherwise
harmed by power line surges or fluctuations, does a UPS system offer me any
real advantage? I know most of them have software that can shut apps and
files and shut the computer down in an orderly manner on battery if the
power dips or goes out, but other than saving data what is the real benefit
to the computer system of the UPS function?

I don't get many power outages per se, and I back up the data I need on a
regular basis.

What protection for my computer system would I forfeit if I just went with
a high-surge-rated surge protector and didn't get a UPS system as well?

I'm just a home user getting a basic P4 computer with a monitor and
printer.

Thanks in advance for any guidance any of you can give me in these matters.

John

 

[philo]

I hope some of you more experienced in these matters can help me as a
relatively new user get a handle on what I need in the way of UPS and/or
surge protection for a new computer.

Specifically, I've been noticing that various UPS units seem to have
relatively low maximum surge or spike ratings, while of course those high
rating surge protectors don't offer the UPS function.

If my main concern is to prevent my computer from being fried or otherwise
harmed by power line surges or fluctuations, does a UPS system offer me any
real advantage? I know most of them have software that can shut apps and
files and shut the computer down in an orderly manner on battery if the
power dips or goes out, but other than saving data what is the real benefit
to the computer system of the UPS function?

I don't get many power outages per se, and I back up the data I need on a
regular basis.

What protection for my computer system would I forfeit if I just went with
a high-surge-rated surge protector and didn't get a UPS system as well?

I'm just a home user getting a basic P4 computer with a monitor and
printer.

Thanks in advance for any guidance any of you can give me in these matters.

John

you are definately better off with a UPS...
first off...they do a great job of surge protection

but what is really nice is that they will keep your machine on during
a brief power disruption.
a power disruption that may otherwise just be noticed as a short blink
of your lighting may well be long enough to cause a reboot...
which could end up doing so real damage to your OS...

on a few occasions i've seen some moderate damage from an unexpected
shut-down

 

[John Markham]

you are definately better off with a UPS...
first off...they do a great job of surge protection

but what is really nice is that they will keep your machine on during
a brief power disruption.
a power disruption that may otherwise just be noticed as a short blink
of your lighting may well be long enough to cause a reboot...
which could end up doing so real damage to your OS...

on a few occasions i've seen some moderate damage from an unexpected
shut-down

Thanks, Philo.

If you don't mind me asking further what brands do you favor?

As I mentioned, and I may have been wrong, but it looked to me as if the
surge protection in the UPS's are in the hundreds of joules while in the
surge protectors they are in the thousands of joules. Is it possible or
even desirable to use both, I mean, like plugging the computer into the UPS
and the UPS into the surge protector?

John

 

[w_tom]

Many recommend UPSes without first learning what a UPS
does. When not in battery backup mode, a plug-in UPS
typically connects computer directly to AC mains. Where is
the protection? Furthermore, a UPS uses the same protection
circuit found in power strip protectors. Both protectors are
rated by the same specification number - joules. Obviously
they are same protection. Why then would the UPS be any
better?

How to identify ineffective protectors. 1) No dedicated
wire for a less than 10 foot connection to earth ground. 2)
Manufacturer completely avoids all discussion about earthing.
A surge protectors is only as effective as its earth ground.
So they hope you don't ask embarrassing questions such as
"Where is the earth ground connection?".

Anything that is effective at far end of a power cord is
already inside your appliances. Internal protection required
by industry standards and even by Intel's power supply
specifications. But that internal protection can be
overwhelmed if you - the homeowner - do not earth incoming
surges before surges enter the building.

It is called a 'whole house' protector. Protectors don't
provide protection. They are simply connectors: act just like
wires. A protector only connects an incoming surge to earth
ground. The 'protector' is not always required. Sometimes a
hardwire does the same function. But every protection system
must have surge 'protection'. Surge 'protection' is the
single point earth ground.

Effective 'whole house' protectors make a less than 10 foot
connection to earth ground. Serious 'building wide' UPSes
provide protection because they are earthed. Meanwhile a
plug-in UPS does not even claim to protect from the typically
destructive surge. Get numerical specs (and not the silly
color glossy sales brochure). The manufacturer only claims
protection from a type of surge that does not typically
exist. Then he hopes others will *assume* that is protection
from all types of surges.

Those who recommend the typical plug-in UPSes for surge
protection don't even understand how that UPS works. UPS
connects electronics direct to AC mains when not in battery
backup mode. Where is the protection? Protection is
mythical.

Effective 'whole house' protectors cost about $1 per
protected appliance. How much for that plug-in UPS? $80 or
$150 per appliance - and it does not even claim to provide
effective protection.

Fundamental fact - a surge protector is only as effective as
its earth ground. No earth ground (ie that plug-in UPS) means
no effective protection. So the manufacturer hopes others
will make wild assumptions - and forget critical earthing.

Three miles of sky could not stop, block, or absorb the
surge. Will the one inch component inside a plug-in UPS do
what miles of sky could not? That plug-in UPS must stop or
block a surge. Obviously it cannot. Less obvious -
manufacturer does not even claim to accomplish that
protection. Install a protection system that has been used
since before WWII to provide effective surge protection.
'Whole house' protectors make a connection to surge protection
- earth ground.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Many recommend UPSes without first learning what a UPS
does. When not in battery backup mode, a plug-in UPS
typically connects computer directly to AC mains. Where is
the protection?

In the onboard surge suppressors.

Furthermore, a UPS uses the same protection
circuit found in power strip protectors.

Usually much better and it includes common mode etc.

Both protectors are
rated by the same specification number - joules. Obviously
they are same protection. Why then would the UPS be any
better?

More fine print digging is required. "joules" is a tiny part of the
story/spec.

How to identify ineffective protectors. 1) No dedicated
wire for a less than 10 foot connection to earth ground.

NO, the ground wire in the 3 wire AC circuit is sufficient.

2)
Manufacturer completely avoids all discussion about earthing.

You should really avoid all discussion about earthlings also as such has
nothing to do with at device surge suppression on mars nor on a balloon
flight. Common mode clamping is the secret to that.

A surge protectors is only as effective as its earth ground.

Total nonsense.

So they hope you don't ask embarrassing questions such as
"Where is the earth ground connection?".

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Anything that is effective at far end of a power cord is
already inside your appliances. Internal protection required
by industry standards and even by Intel's power supply
specifications. But that internal protection can be
overwhelmed if you - the homeowner - do not earth incoming
surges before surges enter the building.

OH NO another whole house protection WACKO!

Drivel snipped.

 

[Raymond]

Protection from lightening you mean? Yup, for that
I not only turn off the computer, but also unplug it.
There is no way I'm going to rely on a mere surge supressor
stopping a direct lightening hit. But are you saying that the
surge protector is useless even for non-weather related power surges?
I thought they could clamp the current over certain levels.

Anyway, I've always relied on my Tripplite Isobar for some
level of protection, and plan on buying a Tripplite UPS. I do
agree though that these cheap UPS devices are nothing more
than surge supressor plus battery backup, they are not true
online UPS by any stretch. Those are way too expensive for
consumers.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Protection from lightening you mean? Yup, for that
I not only turn off the computer, but also unplug it.
There is no way I'm going to rely on a mere surge supressor
stopping a direct lightening hit. But are you saying that the
surge protector is useless even for non-weather related power surges?

Ignore the wacko as he's drumin whole house surge suppression.

I thought they could clamp the current over certain levels.

You don't clamp current but voltage.

Anyway, I've always relied on my Tripplite Isobar for some
level of protection,

They work.

and plan on buying a Tripplite UPS.

Consider APC.

I do
agree though that these cheap UPS devices are nothing more
than surge supressor plus battery backup,

ALL except very expensive & sophisticated ones are like that. BUT their
onboard surge suppression is quite good usually.

 

[philo]

Thanks, Philo.

If you don't mind me asking further what brands do you favor?

As I mentioned, and I may have been wrong, but it looked to me as if the
surge protection in the UPS's are in the hundreds of joules while in the
surge protectors they are in the thousands of joules. Is it possible or
even desirable to use both, I mean, like plugging the computer into the UPS
and the UPS into the surge protector?

well i work with commercial UPS systems and they employ the use of a
ferroresonant
transformer which gives superior surge protection capabilities ...
that said...i have one of my machines on an expensive commercially made
UPS,,,
but my other machine on just an inexpensive "home" type UPS and have not had
any problems
with it.
the typical power strip merely has an MOV in it...which is generally about
the same as the MOV
within a UPS...
at any rate...it will certainly not hurt to use both a UPS and a power
strip/surge protector...

to be really safe...you;d want to unplug your computer and the modem or lan
connector
during a lightning storm...of course no one does that <G>

 

[Manny]

Ignore the wacko as he's drumin whole house surge suppression.

Why? He's right about them providing the best protection.
But plug-in protectors still help.

 

[w_tom]

The ferro-reasonant transformer, by itself, provides noise
protection - compensated for minor voltage variation. What is
that transformer's breakdown voltage? Once a destructive
transient exceeds that breakdown voltage, then the transformer
becomes a conductive wire - conducts the transient.

However transformers have a surge protection connection.
What is the protection? Earth ground. Transformers has a
short connection to earth ground. A destructive transient
would find earth ground at that transformer rather than seek
earth ground, destructively, via building appliances. The
transformer (ferro-reasonant or otherwise) does not provide
protection by isolation. It cannot stop, block, or absorb
destructive transients. To do so, transformer would have to
accomplish what 3 miles of sky could not. The transformer
provides protection by *shunting* to earth ground.
Transformer protection is determined by its earth ground
connection.

I am usually always on computer during every thunderstorm.
Often following a storm's progress in real time. I no longer
worry about using equipment during every storm - just as the
telco does not shut down their $multimillion switching
computer. Just as telephone and 911 emergency operators do
not remove headsets during a storm. Just as the grocery store
does not stop checkout lines during thunderstorms. Only those
who fail to learn simple earthing concepts must then advocate
unplugging during a storm.

 

[w_tom]

Even true on-line UPSes (Typically $500+) do not provide
surge protection. Again, they stop block or absorb what 3
miles of sky could not? Even building wide (on-line) UPSes do
not do that. But then building wide UPSes do provide
effective protection. Not by isolation or by stopping
surges. They have the all so important short connection to
single point earth ground.

No reason for any direct lightning strike to cause
electronics damage. Electronics was struck 25 times per year
atop the Empire State Building without damage (where early
research was conducted). If direct lightning strike damage
was inevitable, then telephone and 911 emergency operators
must remove headsets during every storm. Cell phone towers
would routinely be destroyed. Commercial and TV broadcasters
would stop broadcasting to protect their valuable equipment.
Obviously none of this is true. And so we consult industry
professionals with both the necessary training (the theory)
AND experience (experimental evidence):
http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html

Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning
and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly
expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning
strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime
from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we went
down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power
company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously
to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct
strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct
strike damage is *myth*. ...
The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly
simple, and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you
*must* have a single point ground system that eliminates all
ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path for
the energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance*
path rather than just a low ohm DC path.

I'm going to rely on a mere surge supressor stopping a
direct lightening hit.

That good because nothing claims to stop such destructive
surges. Only myth purveyors promote surge protectors that sit
before an appliance to "stop" surges.

Those Tripplite products quietly forget to mention no
effective protection from destructive type of surge.
Obvious. 1) They have no dedicated connection to earth ground
AND 2) they avoid all discussion about earthing. Protection
from direct lightning strikes is as routine as it was before
WWII. That means ignoring the myth purveyors and, instead,
using products that connect short to earth ground.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

"Ron Reaugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Why? He's right about them providing the best protection.

Actually NO. They provide rather good protection against a number of
threats but they do NOT supplant the need for protection adjacent/at the
device.

But plug-in protectors still help.

But plug-in protectors are still required.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

The ferro-reasonant transformer, by itself, provides noise
protection - compensated for minor voltage variation. What is
that transformer's breakdown voltage? Once a destructive
transient exceeds that breakdown voltage, then the transformer
becomes a conductive wire - conducts the transient.

But during that breakdown the most likely path is to the common mode point
of the system like the chassis and that's a relatively safe place for it to
go.

However transformers have a surge protection connection.
What is the protection? Earth ground.

Earth ground has nothing to do with good protection at the device level for
fast transients.

Transformers has a
short connection to earth ground.

NO, the connection length to earth ground is the actual distance to earth
ground. Usually that is many feet and many nanoseconds and many hifrerq
impedance ohms away.

A destructive transient
would find earth ground at that transformer rather than seek
earth ground, destructively, via building appliances.

HUH, the only safe place for a fast distructive transient is the common
mode. Let it get to everything at once. If one is sitting in a metal cage
and that cage suddenly gets hit by a large lightning bolt then the cage and
you jump to a million volts briefly. Fold your hands and sit inside the
cage and you'll barely notice except for the big bang. Hold you hand
outside on a water pipe and you are TOAST. If one likes then you can
replace cage in the above with in-flight airplane and it all remains true.

Until you understand that concept then any further responses are unneeded.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Even true on-line UPSes (Typically $500+) do not provide
surge protection.
Clueless.

Again, they stop block or absorb what 3
miles of sky could not?

HUH?

Drivel snipped.

 

[David Maynard]

Why? He's right about them providing the best protection.
But plug-in protectors still help.

No, he's not 'right'. He takes half truths, mixes them with misinformation,
obfuscates the meaning of surge, lightning, protection, suppression, and
more, expounds wholly inappropriate 'examples' (anyone who thinks the
telephone company, T.V. broadcast stations, and 'cell towers' rely solely
on what he calls a 'whole house protector' is living in a dream world),
throws in slander and a few conspiracy theories, then spins the concoction
beyond all recognition and reason.

Whole house protectors have certain advantages, and weaknesses, but they
are not the universal panacea he pretends. And his 'earth wire' mantra is
utter nonsense.

 

[philo]

The ferro-reasonant transformer, by itself, provides noise
protection - compensated for minor voltage variation. What is
that transformer's breakdown voltage? Once a destructive
transient exceeds that breakdown voltage, then the transformer
becomes a conductive wire - conducts the transient.

first off...the UPS does have to be properly grounded...
that said...it's not likely anything's going to get past a ferroresonant
transformer...
during a lightning storm i actually witnessed the power-pole which feeds my
house
get a direct hit by lightning! (scared the s*** out of me)
but nothing on the UPS was hurt

 

[Ron Reaugh]

No, he's not 'right'. He takes half truths, mixes them with misinformation,
obfuscates the meaning of surge, lightning, protection, suppression, and
more, expounds wholly inappropriate 'examples' (anyone who thinks the
telephone company, T.V. broadcast stations, and 'cell towers' rely solely
on what he calls a 'whole house protector' is living in a dream world),
throws in slander and a few conspiracy theories, then spins the concoction
beyond all recognition and reason.

Ah so I'm not the only one who can spot the wacko drumin whole house surge
protectors, thanks.

Whole house protectors have certain advantages, and weaknesses, but they
are not the universal panacea he pretends. And his 'earth wire' mantra is
utter nonsense.

Amen.

 

[w_tom]

Where is your primary surge protector? On utility power
pole with utility transformer. Lightning gets past any
protector if not offered a shorter path to earth. Examples of
a compromised 'primary surge protection' system. Notice the
'all so important' earth ground:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Was that primary protection system sufficient so that
appliance internal protection was not overwhelmed? Maybe.
But in the meantime, a plug-in UPS connected appliances
directly to AC mains. Where is the UPS protection that stops,
blocks, or absorbs surges? That UPS does not even claim those
abilities. Read its numerical specifications. It does not
even claim protection from that destructive type of surge.

Protection must not just be grounded. It must be earthed by
a connection that is short, direct, and independent. Distance
being so critical that even some cable companies now add
additional criteria. Distance from incoming cable to earth
ground must be significantly shorter than wire distance to TV
or cable modem.

Being grounded is not sufficient. The connection from each
incoming utility wire to a single point earth must short (less
than 10 feet and outside of metallic conduit or pipe), direct
(no sharp bends or splices), and independent (each wire routes
separately from non-grounding wires until all meet at the
single point earth ground).

Unlike those who make their case only by insulting, posted
instead are authorities, technical facts, and numbers. For
example, the National Institute of Science and Technology also
makes same point. An NIST figure demonstrate how, for
example, a fax machine is protected by the single point earth
ground AND how improper earthing can cause fax damage:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Another industry professional demonstrates the concepts.
Destructive surges can even enter on buried wires:

http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

Those who profit by selling ineffective plug-in protectors
will deny all this. Those who claim a surge protector stops
surges are promoting myths. Even Ben Franklin demonstrated
the concepts in 1752. Destructive transient are not stopped.
They are shunted to earth either by a wire or via a surge
protector. Since a myth purveyor cannot challenge technical
fact, instead he posts insults repeatedly here and in other
newsgroups.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground
as even demonstrated by "Planning guide for Sun Server room
Section 5.4.7 Lightning Protection". Whoops. Another
authority. Primary surge protection system is on the utility
pole. Secondary protection system is the building's 'whole
house' protector connected to a single point earth ground.
These protection systems shunt surges so that appliance
internal protection is not overwhelmed.

A recent strike to nearby pole also startled me, while on a
computer. No plug-in protector or UPS. No damage or computer
interruption. A direct strike. No plug-in protectors. No
damage. Strike so close that light and sound occurred
simultaneously. A surge protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. The protector (or plug-in UPS) is not
protection. Protection is single point earth ground.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Go away. You have NO understanding of these issues.

"w_tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message

 

[John Markham]

Ignore the wacko as he's drumin whole house surge suppression.


You don't clamp current but voltage.


They work.


Consider APC.

Ron, thanks to you and all others who are responding.

To the extent that you know, or anyone else, how would you evaluate Tripp
Lite against APC in line interactive 1000va units? From what I can tell APC
seems to have a slight edge in user friendliness: seemingly more easily
replaceable batteries, resettable circuit breakers, but OTOH I've never
used APC, and I have used Tripp Lite IsoBars without complaint.

Any more light you all could shed on the better unit would be appreciated.

Thanks,

John