Help please: UPS - surge suppression strategy

R

Ron Reaugh

John Markham said:
Ron, thanks to you and all others who are responding.

To the extent that you know, or anyone else, how would you evaluate Tripp
Lite against APC in line interactive 1000va units? From what I can tell APC
seems to have a slight edge in user friendliness: seemingly more easily
replaceable batteries, resettable circuit breakers, but OTOH I've never
used APC, and I have used Tripp Lite IsoBars without complaint.

Any more light you all could shed on the better unit would be appreciated.

For use on a server where the primary goal I use them for is to allow
graceful shutdown and then come back up normally and automatically and
repeatedly, I like the APC SmartUPS. The others seem to systematically
come up short in the software arena to handle the whole task I describe.
They either wont shutdown controllably OR they wont wait for their batteries
to sufficiently recharge(or their recharge is too slow) to allow a following
shudown before coming back up this time.
IE don't restart/repower unless there is enough battery charge to do another
shutdown soon thereafter.
 
D

David Maynard

Ron said:
Ah so I'm not the only one who can spot the wacko drumin whole house surge
protectors, thanks.

You're quite welcome.

But I've already been through an extended round of pointing out his B.S.
and, frankly, I'm thanking YOU for joining the fray ;)
 
J

John Markham

For use on a server where the primary goal I use them for is to allow
graceful shutdown and then come back up normally and automatically and
repeatedly, I like the APC SmartUPS. The others seem to systematically
come up short in the software arena to handle the whole task I describe.
They either wont shutdown controllably OR they wont wait for their batteries
to sufficiently recharge(or their recharge is too slow) to allow a following
shudown before coming back up this time.
IE don't restart/repower unless there is enough battery charge to do another
shutdown soon thereafter.

Thanks, Ron.

John
 
R

Ron Reaugh

David Maynard said:
You're quite welcome.

But I've already been through an extended round of pointing out his B.S.
and, frankly, I'm thanking YOU for joining the fray ;)

Very big GRIN.....well nope I really still need to be thankin you...See in
Google Groups thread titled:
"BH6 (rev1.03), UPS Fail, Dead?" in NG: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.abit on
2000-12-03 13:00:30
&
"Arrrggghhh. Help with Dead Hard Disks"
comp.periphs.scsi - Jun 15, 2001
&
"Are PC surge protectors needed in the UK?"
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage - Jul 9, 2004

Those are just the threads that I'm also in. Now the others..number in
1000-s.

This ninny has been doin this for awhile now.
 
D

David Maynard

Ron said:
Very big GRIN.....well nope I really still need to be thankin you...See in
Google Groups thread titled:
"BH6 (rev1.03), UPS Fail, Dead?" in NG: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.abit on
2000-12-03 13:00:30
&
"Arrrggghhh. Help with Dead Hard Disks"
comp.periphs.scsi - Jun 15, 2001
&
"Are PC surge protectors needed in the UK?"
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage - Jul 9, 2004

Change that to "Are mains surge protectors needed in the UK?" in this very
group and you've got the one I was in at the same time period.
Those are just the threads that I'm also in. Now the others..number in
1000-s.

This ninny has been doin this for awhile now.

Yeah. I noticed.
 
L

larrymoencurly

w_tom said:
I am usually always on computer during every thunderstorm.
Often following a storm's progress in real time. I no longer
worry about using equipment during every storm - just as the
telco does not shut down their $multimillion switching
computer. Just as telephone and 911 emergency operators do
not remove headsets during a storm. Just as the grocery store
does not stop checkout lines during thunderstorms. Only those
who fail to learn simple earthing concepts must then advocate
unplugging during a storm.

If plug-in phone line protectors don't help, then why were my only two
modem failures with units that weren't plugged into them? This was
with only six modems total, so I realize that no valid conclusion can
be drawn, but it seems like a funny concidence.

One modem was an external US Robotics Sportster, powered by a 2-wire
power pack, if that matters, that didn't work after a recent
thunderstorm. The other three modems, all cheapo Winmodems, were
connected to plug-in surge protectors and still worked normally.

1-2 years ago, a cheapo Winmodem failed after a thunderstorm while
that same US Robotics Sportster, plugged into a surge protector that
time, still worked fine. Several months ago, when the phone company
came out to make an unrelated repair, I did see that the phone
junction box had a couple of surge protectors (neon bulbs?) tied to a
ground that went to the ground rod about two feet away.

So should I add more phone surge protection to the junction box or
just after it?
 
L

larrymoencurly

Ron Reaugh said:
"w_tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
Go away. You have NO understanding of these issues.

I have questions for both you and w_tom:

1. What are your formal credentials -- type of college degree,
certifications, etc?

2. What are your informal credentials -- what you learned on your own,
what type of work experience have you had, etc?
 
M

Manny

I've been noticing that various UPS units seem to have
relatively low maximum surge or spike ratings, while of
course those high rating surge protectors don't offer
the UPS function.

I've seen only Tripplite and APS backup supplies (most
devices refered to as UPSes aren't truely UPSes because
they switch over from AC outlet power to the battery
rather than continuously use the battery), but their
surge protection circuitry appeared to be as elaborate
as that found in the most expensive retail surge
protectors. In other words, the manufacturers of those
surge protectors may be exaggerating the degree of
protection, such as when they list joule ratings based
on all the MOV crowbars shorting out at once rather
than list separate ratings for hot-ground, neutral-ground,
and hot-neutral surges.
 
W

w_tom

How many smoke detectors - also not on surge protectors -
were damaged during the surge? Just because some things are
damaged and others are not does not justify a protector. One
must first review the details.

Some appliances will be in a path to earth ground. Others
may also be a path to earth ground, but be partially or
sufficiently protected by another (destroyed) appliance.
Furthermore, some appliances (even modems) may have better
internal protection. Ie. some modems use an off-hook relay
with a higher breakdown voltage. Numerous reasons why some
modems can fail whereas others survive. Even the length of
connecting wire changes the surge circuit (which is why an
earth ground connection must be less than 10 foot). I often
autopsy the modems and even up with some good modems by
replacing the failed transistor. IOW I trace the path of that
surge to learn why things fail. Repairing is not sufficient.
Unlike some others here, I am a trained and practicing
engineer who always wants to know 'why' failure happened.
Unlike those others here, I have no interest in posting 'proof
by insults'.

We know this from telephone exchanges, radio stations, and
even the original research performed on the Empire State
Building. Effective protection means shunting lightning to
earth ground before it can get near to appliances. This is
the less expensive as well as superior protection.

For example, in one set of networked computers, lightning
path to earth ground was discovered by literally replacing
each damaged semiconductor. They had three computers. Two
were on plug-in protectors. All computers were off.
Lightning struck the AC electric. It entered two computers
with power strip surge protectors. It exited both computers
via network interface chips. It entered a third computer via
the network interface chip and exited to earth ground via a
modem.

Notice what plug-in protectors did in this example.
Protectors actually completed the surge circuit. Protectors
shunted a surge into two networked computers. It does not
happen in every case. But depending on the circuit, a plug-in
protector can even contribute to adjacent computer damage.

If lightning passed through all three computers, then why
were ICs on motherboards also not damaged? Every computer
Integrated Circuit (IC) was exposed to the incoming transient
- just like every appliance inside a building is exposed. But
only those IC that had insufficient internal protection AND
that formed a complete circuit - both an incoming and outgoing
electrical path - were damaged.

Why was their TV and VCR not damaged by same surge? They
were not on power strip protectors. Devil is in the details.
Just because some things are and are not damaged is not
sufficient to say a surge protector works. One must analyze
at the component level - to literally trace the path of that
electrical current called a surge. Even wires become
electronic components in that analysis. If surge protector
was so effective, then what protected smoke detectors
dishwasher/ Both were not on protectors and not damaged. Why
did they not fail?

Many call lightning capricious. I don't. Lightning is
obviously simple once basic principles are understood.
Fundamental is earth ground. Lightning seeks earth ground.
Some appliances will be damaged when part of a path to earth.
Other adjacent appliances will not, in part, because they also
have better internal protection. Effective protection always
means the transient must be earthed before it can enter a
building. Follow the transient path to first appreciate how
and why protection works.

A telco wire would already have protection provided free.
However if still using the old 'carbons' then either your NID
should be upgraded or the carbons replaced. The old and long
obsoleted protection is:
http://thekramers.net/tmp/phonething.jpg
http://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/Phoneline.jpg

Newer 'whole house' phone line protectors are:
http://www.alarmsuperstore.com/bw/bw connectors.htm
http://www.bass-home.com/gotoproduct.cfm?item=91598

Newer protectors are semiconductor based. IOW upon failure,
they typically short circuit. Unlike older technology
protectors (ie neon bulbs or the carbons), semiconductor
protectors announce their failure by cutting off phone
service. Also have lower capacitance meaning that they will
not compromise DSL and other newer services.

Second, a wire from phone line protector must be to same
earth ground used by AC electric and cable. Earthing wire
must meet the short, direct, and independent criteria posted
earlier.

Therein lies the protection on phone lines. But wires most
often struck are wires highest on pole. The most common
source of modem damage is AC electric. Even a wall wart power
supply for a modem will not stop or block this transient.
Furthermore, one AC electric wire makes a direct connection to
modems IC - internal or external modem. Incoming on AC
electric. Outgoing on phone line to earth ground. A typical
circuit that causes modem damage.

Again, incoming AC electric must also earth a surge before
it can enter the building. Most residential buildings do not
have this 'whole house' protector. Required for modem
protection is a 'whole house' protector on AC electric that
connected less than 10 feet to the same earth ground also used
by the telco NID box (telco provided surge protector).
 
W

w_tom

To put numbers to what Manny posts. A plug-in protector
(UPS or power strip) may be rated at 345 joules. But it may
only provide 115 joules and never more than 230 joules in
protection. Furthermore, they may put another 70 joules on
phone line. So they rate the protector at 415 joules. Still
it only uses somewhere between 115 and 230 joules to protect.
Furthermore protection decreases exponentially as joules
decrease.

Compare this to a 'whole house' protector that uses all
1000+ joules in protection. To be equivalent, a plug-in
protector would have to be rated 3000 joules.

Why do so many plug-in protector provide so few joules?
They really don't claim to provide effective protection. By
putting too few joules (cutting costs), they can get others to
hype ineffective protector - using insults for technical
proof.
 
R

Ron Reaugh

Manny said:
(e-mail address removed) (John Markham) wrote in message

I've seen only Tripplite and APS backup supplies (most
devices refered to as UPSes aren't truely UPSes because
they switch over from AC outlet power to the battery
rather than continuously use the battery),

NO, there's nothing whatever wrong with that design. It works very well
and meets the advertised specs and there's a substamtial argument that such
designs are MORE reliable.
 
W

w_tom

"Substamtial argument"? Go ahead Ron. Fill us with your
wisdom. Do what you do not do on other newsgroups where you
are insulting others such as alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
.. Amaze us that you actually know what is reliable. Put up
some numbers. Show us with simple technical facts why Manny
is wrong.

Show us how you can actually post something without
insulting others. Show us that you even know how electricity
works. It would be a first. If you do, then we will have to
invite the many insulted posters from those other newsgroups
just to see it.

In the meantime, show us in the specs for that plug-in
protector where they even discuss longitudinal transients.
They don't because plug-in protectors don't even claim
protection from that type of surge. Ron. Do you even know
what longitudinal means? Instead you will post more insults.
Why should the world change?

John Markham. You are invited to review everything Ron
Reaugh has posted. He offers not one supporting fact for his
opinions. Not even numbers. He just knows. Manny has
properly defined how joules are speced in plug-in protectors.
Many protectors are so grossly undersized so that the naive
owner will suffer surge protector damage and say, "My surge
protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Effective
protectors (properly sized) earth direct lightning strikes
without damage. But that means a protector must be properly
sized. We know how Ron will respond - complete with no
numbers and no technical facts.
 
R

Ron Reaugh

w_tom said:
"Substamtial argument"? Go ahead Ron.

No, we already did that back in 2001 or so. And you've been stalkin half
the NGs in existence with your psycho whole world surge protection scheme in
1000-s of posts over the years.. GO AWAY!
 
W

w_tom

So those new orifices ripped open by technical fact have had
time to heal? No wonder you avoid posting any numbers or
supporting facts. That way, others will not realize you are
writing pulp fiction in every post.
 

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