Applying styles -- another degradation from 2000 to 2003

[Uriel]

What do you do more often? Apply an existing style? Or create a new one?

Obviously -- the former.

So why, after you've selected an existing style in the Format:Style
dialogue, is the default command (invoked on ENTER) "New" instead of "Apply"
? (I'm talking about Word 2003.)

Moreover, why, when you do choose "New" (deliberately or inadvertently), is
the new style always "based on" NORMAL instead of the style you've just
highlighted??

Still further: why is it HARDER to highlight an existing style than it was
in 2000? Say you have a style called "quote." In 2000, if that's the only
one that starts with "q", then "quote" gets highlighted as soon as you type
"q". 2003, however, acts dumb, pretending not to know what style starting
with "q" you mean, so you have to follow "q" with down-arrow.

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Uriel,

So why, after you've selected an existing style in the Format:Style
dialogue, is the default command (invoked on ENTER) "New" instead of "Apply"
? (I'm talking about Word 2003.)

In Word 2003, try using the Styles and Formatting Task Pane to apply styles.
The dialog box is really only for style *management*, and that usually means
one would be creating or modifying, not applying, styles.

The Styles and Formatting task pane is really a wonderful thing when formatting
a document; much better than the dialog box ever was. And you can set it up to
show ONLY the styles you want to work with in a particular document or template
(+ its docs).

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

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[Uriel]

Hi Cindy,

In 2000, to change the selection to my defined "quote" style, I'd type the
following:

Alt-o, s, q, ENTER

That took about a third of a second.

Please tell me how I can match that with the Styles and Formatting Task
Pane.

Hi Uriel,

So why, after you've selected an existing style in the Format:Style
dialogue, is the default command (invoked on ENTER) "New" instead of
"Apply"
? (I'm talking about Word 2003.)

In Word 2003, try using the Styles and Formatting Task Pane to apply styles.
The dialog box is really only for style *management*, and that usually means
one would be creating or modifying, not applying, styles.

The Styles and Formatting task pane is really a wonderful thing when
formatting
a document; much better than the dialog box ever was. And you can set it up
to
show ONLY the styles you want to work with in a particular document or
template
(+ its docs).

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply
in the newsgroup and not by e-mail

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Uriel,

In 2000, to change the selection to my defined "quote" style, I'd type the
following:

Alt-o, s, q, ENTER

That took about a third of a second.

Please tell me how I can match that with the Styles and Formatting Task
Pane.

Well, if you want to concentrate on the keyboard (quite understandable), how
about assigning the styles you use most often to your own keyboard shortcuts?

Tools/CUstomize/Keyboard. Select "Styles" from the list on the left; the
style for which you want to create a shortcut from the list on the right,
then click in the box and press the combination you'd like to use. Alt+s, q
for example.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail

 

[Uriel]

Hi again,

Cindy, you must realize this is MORE WORK. It introduces complexity --
customization, definitions of shortcuts, keeping things in sync -- where I
needed none before.

Perhaps your solution is the best option for me in 2003, and I thank you for
the advice. But my post was more in the nature of a remark that 2003 is
positively worse than 2000. Which seems incredible. I don't know if there's
something wrong with the way MS listens to customers, or something wrong
with the way customers use the product.

Hi Uriel,

In 2000, to change the selection to my defined "quote" style, I'd type the
following:

Alt-o, s, q, ENTER

That took about a third of a second.

Please tell me how I can match that with the Styles and Formatting Task
Pane.

Well, if you want to concentrate on the keyboard (quite understandable), how
about assigning the styles you use most often to your own keyboard
shortcuts?

Tools/CUstomize/Keyboard. Select "Styles" from the list on the left; the
style for which you want to create a shortcut from the list on the right,
then click in the box and press the combination you'd like to use. Alt+s, q
for example.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Uriel,

Cindy, you must realize this is MORE WORK. It introduces complexity --
customization, definitions of shortcuts, keeping things in sync -- where I
needed none before.

Well, since the keyboard shortcut can be stored in the "container" (document or
template) in which the style is defined it shouldn't be that much more complex
than managing the styles, themselves...

Perhaps your solution is the best option for me in 2003, and I thank you for
the advice. But my post was more in the nature of a remark that 2003 is
positively worse than 2000. Which seems incredible. I don't know if there's
something wrong with the way MS listens to customers, or something wrong
with the way customers use the product.

From my experience, the reason is that Microsoft is trying to "listen" to what
their automated statistics gathering tells them is the majority of users. And
those are the ones who basically use Word as a fancy typewriter. Powerusers who
know what styles are and work with them are in the minority.

If you've been following the discussion on the MS site and in the blogs, you'll
have seen that things are moving even more radically away from the traditional
Word interface... But for the moment...

Did you ever, in any version of Word, use the dropdown style list for applying
styles (via the keyboard)? This was always the fastest method, and it still
works: Alt+Shift+S to activate the toolbar control, then start typing the style
name. If you need to see the list, Alt+Down Arrow.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or reply
in the newsgroup and not by e-mail

 

[Uriel]

Hi Cindy,

Did you ever, in any version of Word, use the dropdown style list for
applying styles (via the keyboard)? This was always the fastest method, and
it still works: [...] to activate the toolbar control, then start typing
the style name. If you need to see the list, Alt+Down Arrow.

Zounds!! I never knew about that. (You meant to say CTRL+SHIFT+S, by the
way.)

I just don't know why downarrow shows only a very incomplete list of styles.
I checked "Customizing menus and toolbars" in the online help. It says:

---------------------
You can customize menus and toolbars yourself; you can add and remove
buttons and menus on toolbars, create your own custom toolbars, hide or
display toolbars, and move toolbars. You can customize the menu bar the same
way you customize any built-in toolbar (built-in toolbar: A toolbar included
with Microsoft Office programs; it is not created by the user.)- for
example, you can quickly add and remove buttons and menus on the menu bar-
but you can't hide the menu bar.
---------------------

And it stops there, without saying how.

There is a "See Also" followed by a "Customize your toolbars and menus"
link. One might expect that to lead to another help page, but it takes you
to http://office.microsoft.com/training/training.aspx?AssetID=RC010036361033
, a webpage that talks out loud at you, trying to sell training services.

Regarding the user-defined keyboard shortcuts for styles method you
suggested before:

since the keyboard shortcut can be stored in the "container" (document or
template) in which the style is defined it shouldn't be that much more
complex than managing the styles, themselves...

I think user-defined keyboard shortcuts are normally undesirable. They are
largely arbitrary, so if you have any number of them they're hard to
remember (it'd be quite a challenge, at least for me, to devise a uniform
scheme to designate user-defined shortcuts, and one that doesn't conflict
with Word's built-in shortcuts); they're normally not displayed, so you
don't see reminders; they make your interface non-standard, so your habits
won't work on someone else's system; and they're normally unnecessary since
a standard operation can accomplish the same thing about as efficiently
(e.g. in Word 2000, alt-o s <first-letter>). In general they violate the
fundamental software principle of simplicity -- avoid many specific rules,
seek a small number of general rules.

Microsoft is trying to "listen" to what their automated statistics
gathering tells them is the majority of users. And those are the ones who
basically use Word as a fancy typewriter. Powerusers who know what styles
are and work with them are in the minority.... things are moving even more
radically away from the traditional Word interface...

You're depressing me....

Hi Uriel,

Cindy, you must realize this is MORE WORK. It introduces complexity --
customization, definitions of shortcuts, keeping things in sync -- where I
needed none before.

Well, since the keyboard shortcut can be stored in the "container" (document
or
template) in which the style is defined it shouldn't be that much more
complex
than managing the styles, themselves...

Perhaps your solution is the best option for me in 2003, and I thank you
for
the advice. But my post was more in the nature of a remark that 2003 is
positively worse than 2000. Which seems incredible. I don't know if
there's
something wrong with the way MS listens to customers, or something wrong
with the way customers use the product.

From my experience, the reason is that Microsoft is trying to "listen" to
what
their automated statistics gathering tells them is the majority of users.
And
those are the ones who basically use Word as a fancy typewriter. Powerusers
who
know what styles are and work with them are in the minority.

If you've been following the discussion on the MS site and in the blogs,
you'll
have seen that things are moving even more radically away from the
traditional
Word interface... But for the moment...

Did you ever, in any version of Word, use the dropdown style list for
applying
styles (via the keyboard)? This was always the fastest method, and it still
works: Alt+Shift+S to activate the toolbar control, then start typing the
style
name. If you need to see the list, Alt+Down Arrow.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply
in the newsgroup and not by e-mail

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Uriel,

(You meant to say CTRL+SHIFT+S, by the
way.)

Yes. Sorry about that. I realized it about an hour later,
but by then had no idea in which group this discussion was

I just don't know why downarrow shows only a very incomplete list of styles.

It should parallel the settings for the task pane
("available", "all", etc). If you go into the customize and
set the styles you prefer to be visible, I think the list
should change?

I think user-defined keyboard shortcuts are normally undesirable. They are
largely arbitrary, so if you have any number of them they're hard to
remember (it'd be quite a challenge, at least for me, to devise a uniform
scheme to designate user-defined shortcuts, and one that doesn't conflict
with Word's built-in shortcuts)

Well, I can't really argue with you. However, this last
point is why I suggested a two-phase short-cut

You're depressing me....

Yeah. Misery loves company <g> Hope things are going at
least a bit more smoothly, now.

Cindy Meister

 

[Uriel]

It should parallel the settings for the task pane ("available", "all",

etc). If you go into the customize and set the styles you prefer to be
visible, I think the list should change?

Sigh. It took a while to figure out how to display that task pane -- even
after recalling it's named "styles and formatting." (I'd customized my
Format submenu and removed the corresponding entry, not expecting to use it
again.)

But you are right. It was set to show "available styles." Changing to "all
styles" changes the list I get on CTRL+SHIFT+S, downarrow, too.

Since all styles listed in "all styles" are available, one might ask why
"available styles" is a more limited list, but never mind, I'm getting
weary...... I guess statistics show most users don't think available means
available.


Hi Uriel,

(You meant to say CTRL+SHIFT+S, by the
way.)

Yes. Sorry about that. I realized it about an hour later,
but by then had no idea in which group this discussion was

I just don't know why downarrow shows only a very incomplete list of styles.

It should parallel the settings for the task pane
("available", "all", etc). If you go into the customize and
set the styles you prefer to be visible, I think the list
should change?

I think user-defined keyboard shortcuts are normally undesirable. They are
largely arbitrary, so if you have any number of them they're hard to
remember (it'd be quite a challenge, at least for me, to devise a uniform
scheme to designate user-defined shortcuts, and one that doesn't conflict
with Word's built-in shortcuts)

Well, I can't really argue with you. However, this last
point is why I suggested a two-phase short-cut

You're depressing me....

Yeah. Misery loves company <g> Hope things are going at
least a bit more smoothly, now.

Cindy Meister

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

You can define which styles are "available" through the "Custom" setting.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

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[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Uriel,

Since all styles listed in "all styles" are available, one might ask why
"available styles" is a more limited list,

It's a means of filtering the list so that one needn't sift through all the
styles. If you have a boss who mainly wants to right and format, and you
want him to use styles instead of direct formatting, it's the only way
you'll get him to do it

Put a few in the task pane - "in his face" - where they're easy to see.
He'll use them. He's happy; "you're" happy It really does work.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail