APC Back-Ups Office - Doesn't protect at all

[00_DotNetWarrior]

I have been using APC products at least for 6-7 years and I have 10 of their
products in the office and I am happy with them UNTIL recently. I have one
of my regular desktops I left it on all the time protected by APC Back-Ups
Office 500 VA, I went out for 2 hours and came back. The computer was off
and the whole room got burning smell. I found that my APC was not working,
So I examined my computer, monitor everything were fine when plugged
directly to the elec outlet.

Now, I opened up the APC, Look at the photos!!

http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/1.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/2.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/3.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/4.jpg

The unit was not overloaded, and I checked my log file from other APCs
software, there wasn't any surge during the day.

Now, the questions are:

1. What caused this? anyone had similar experience?

2. If I am using APC for my servers (I do have several servers running
1000VA series), I am SO WORRIED this will happen and shut down by itself
like this. How can I prevent this and WHAT'S THE POINT of having a backup
when APC can't even function by itself?

3. See the photos? The burning is pretty bad, it can actually cause fire. I
should think about APC product if I were to buy again.


Alex

 

[PC]

I have been using APC products at least for 6-7 years and I have 10 of
their products in the office and I am happy with them UNTIL recently. I
have one of my regular desktops I left it on all the time protected by APC
Back-Ups Office 500 VA, I went out for 2 hours and came back. The computer
was off and the whole room got burning smell. I found that my APC was not
working, So I examined my computer, monitor everything were fine when
plugged directly to the elec outlet.

Now, I opened up the APC, Look at the photos!!

http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/1.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/2.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/3.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/4.jpg

The unit was not overloaded, and I checked my log file from other APCs
software, there wasn't any surge during the day.

Now, the questions are:

1. What caused this? anyone had similar experience?

2. If I am using APC for my servers (I do have several servers running
1000VA series), I am SO WORRIED this will happen and shut down by itself
like this. How can I prevent this and WHAT'S THE POINT of having a backup
when APC can't even function by itself?

3. See the photos? The burning is pretty bad, it can actually cause fire.
I should think about APC product if I were to buy again.


Alex

Alex

Don't worry about it, just replace it. ( with another brand if it makes you
happier)

Going on your figures you have 60 - 70 time on years (525,000 - 613,200
hours) of use out of your APC's.
I recon that's pretty good reliability for one blowup.

Cheers
Paul.

 

[Michael Ware]

3. See the photos? The burning is pretty bad, it can actually cause fire.

Doubtful. I have seen the insides of car stereos that look a lot worse than
this.

 

[John McGaw]

I have been using APC products at least for 6-7 years and I have 10 of their
products in the office and I am happy with them UNTIL recently. I have one
of my regular desktops I left it on all the time protected by APC Back-Ups
Office 500 VA, I went out for 2 hours and came back. The computer was off
and the whole room got burning smell. I found that my APC was not working,
So I examined my computer, monitor everything were fine when plugged
directly to the elec outlet.

Now, I opened up the APC, Look at the photos!!

http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/1.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/2.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/3.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/4.jpg

The unit was not overloaded, and I checked my log file from other APCs
software, there wasn't any surge during the day.

Now, the questions are:

1. What caused this? anyone had similar experience?

2. If I am using APC for my servers (I do have several servers running
1000VA series), I am SO WORRIED this will happen and shut down by itself
like this. How can I prevent this and WHAT'S THE POINT of having a backup
when APC can't even function by itself?

3. See the photos? The burning is pretty bad, it can actually cause fire. I
should think about APC product if I were to buy again.


Alex

And how many pieces of electronic equipment do you own that will never
and can never fail? Was the UPS supplying a computer controlling, for
example, your life support system?

I'd say that if the UPS failing didn't damage your computer, and given
that the UPS in question is about the cheapest model that APC makes,
things worked out pretty well all things considered. By all means, go
and buy some other manufacturer's UPS if it makes you happy but if you
continue to buy from the bottom rung you probably shouldn't expect any
better experience and may well do far worse.

 

[dkuhajda]

Since you say the unit was not overloaded, please post exactly what was
plugged into the backup portion and the wattage of each unit.

The failure probably was just a normal electronics failure. So far you
have had pretty good luck in terms of hours and use of the APC backup
units. You do realize that the one you had in the picture was the
cheapest bottom of the line UPS you could have been using?

Where I work paid $3200 for a real UPS power converter for a situation
where power interuption could be life endangering. It was a 3KVA ONEAC
with full power conversion.

 

[Charles Schuler]

These things happen even with hardened and redundant military/aerospace
systems.

 

[Paul]

Since you say the unit was not overloaded, please post exactly what was
plugged into the backup portion and the wattage of each unit.

The failure probably was just a normal electronics failure. So far you
have had pretty good luck in terms of hours and use of the APC backup
units. You do realize that the one you had in the picture was the
cheapest bottom of the line UPS you could have been using?

Where I work paid $3200 for a real UPS power converter for a situation
where power interuption could be life endangering. It was a 3KVA ONEAC
with full power conversion.

"You do realize that the one you had in the picture was the
cheapest bottom of the line UPS you could have been using"

And that is the lesson to be learned here.

In a sampling of 100 units of this class of product, roughly
10% did not function correctly. None failed in the fashion yours
did, but the lesson I learned from that purchase, is these
cost-reduced designs do nobody a favor. When the UPS companies
fight one another on lowest price, the loser is the consumer.

I use a 650VA for the computer I'm typing on, and it was
the biggest one I could get at my local computer store.
I cannot imagine what the shipping would cost, to order
a decent one from the Internet.

Paul

 

[Conor]

3. See the photos? The burning is pretty bad,

The burning is **** all. There wasn't any burning. The lacquer on the
PCB has got hot.

it can actually cause fire.

Again bullshit.

I should think about APC product if I were to buy again.

On the sayso of one over dramatic knobjockey?

--
Conor

I'm so grateful to the USA for their contribution to the war on terror.
After all, if they hadn't funded the IRA for 30 years, we wouldn't know
what terror was.

 

[dkuhajda]

I have TWO APC Back-UPS 450s in use, one for the monitor, one for the
computer.
The combined monitor and computer put the 450 in an overload condition.
Given the computers 400 watt power supply and the monitors 200 watt
rating, no wonder the UPS was overloaded.

No sense paying shipping for a UPS over the internet with Batteries
Plus, and others, around.
They can special order in many real commercial grade UPS units and have
it come in with the next truck of batteries so you pay no shipping. So
far the price has been within 10% on most units as the best online
price from a reputable type of company. Staples, Office Depot, etc
also have reasonable selection of UPS units that are better than the
bottom of the line available and they also will get them into the
store.

How many people actually test their UPS regularily?
How many people inspect the UPS batteries once a year, they generally
last 2 to 4 years in most non-high grade units?

 

[dkuhajda]

See the photos? The burning is pretty bad, it can actually cause fire.

I see no signs of burning on the board as it is not bubbled up at all,
just blackened.
Looks like the regulator IC failed and got hot and sent the casing
plastic and magic smoke out.

There is very little chance of any fire from a failure like that. The
"burning" as you called it was local to the internal structure of the 3
leg regulator ic. Even as it was very hot, there might be some signs
of the heat on the plastic case. You can put a propane torch to the
plastic case and it will burn only while the external flame and heat is
applied, the case has fire proofing material in the plastic.

I do wonder if the UPS was sitting on a carpeted floor, which is not in
accordance with the normal installation APC recommends.

 

[James Sweet]

I have been using APC products at least for 6-7 years and I have 10 of their
products in the office and I am happy with them UNTIL recently. I have one
of my regular desktops I left it on all the time protected by APC Back-Ups
Office 500 VA, I went out for 2 hours and came back. The computer was off
and the whole room got burning smell. I found that my APC was not working,
So I examined my computer, monitor everything were fine when plugged
directly to the elec outlet.

Now, I opened up the APC, Look at the photos!!

http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/1.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/2.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/3.jpg
http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/4.jpg

The unit was not overloaded, and I checked my log file from other APCs
software, there wasn't any surge during the day.

Now, the questions are:

1. What caused this? anyone had similar experience?

2. If I am using APC for my servers (I do have several servers running
1000VA series), I am SO WORRIED this will happen and shut down by itself
like this. How can I prevent this and WHAT'S THE POINT of having a backup
when APC can't even function by itself?

3. See the photos? The burning is pretty bad, it can actually cause fire. I
should think about APC product if I were to buy again.


Alex

Looks like that voltage regulator blew up, it happens sometimes with any
piece of electronics. It's very rare for one to actually start a fire
but it will give off lots of horrid smelling smoke if a power
semiconductor craters like that. My guess in this case is that it was
simply a defective part, probably shorted internally and overheated.
Replacing that one part might even get the unit back online.

 

[James Sweet]

I have TWO APC Back-UPS 450s in use, one for the monitor, one for the
computer.
The combined monitor and computer put the 450 in an overload condition.
Given the computers 400 watt power supply and the monitors 200 watt
rating, no wonder the UPS was overloaded.

I've checked my computer (with a 350W PSU) and my monitor (rated at
150W) with a power analyzer and found the computer averages about 170W
but varies between 150W and 190W depending on what it's doing and the
monitor 90-120W. Together though they'll overload the old 400VA UPS I
had, the reason is the power factor is rather poor at about .67 for the
two units combined so the apparent power (volts times amps which is what
UPSs are rated in) is substantially higher than the true wattage they draw.

 

[Hugh Prescott]

How old was the UPS ?

When did you last check it's battery runtime ?

When did you last replace the battery ?

What was the total load connected to the UPS ?

APC UPSs are no worse and somewhat better than the rest of the lot.

Failure is one I have seen before. Charging circut overheats because
of a failed shorted battery cell.

As others have mentioned don't buy the low capacity bottom feeders.

Hugh

 

[dkuhajda]

For home use, the maximum wattage that could be used by a device should
less than the maximum wattage output of any UPS.
If the UPS is rated in VA, then multiply it by a nice round 0.7 for the
absolute maximum wattage it can handle.
Then you really want some extra room for error and longer ups on
battery run time, so always allow some spare capacity.
Since most 400watt P4 power supplies do not use quite that much
current, as James Sweet noted, having a single computer on a 400-500VA
UPS is about right in most cases. If there is any question about the
power used by the computer, then size the UPS based on the maximum
wattage the computer could be pulling, 400/0.7 = 571, so a 600VA or
larger should be used on just the computer.

 

[Guest]

APC Back-Ups Office 500 VA, I went out for 2 hours and came back.
The computer was off and the whole room got burning smell. I found
that my APC was not working, So I examined my computer, monitor
everything were fine when plugged directly to the elec outlet.

http://portal.aidmas.com/Temp/Customer/98712/4.jpg

The unit was not overloaded, and I checked my log file from other APCs
software, there wasn't any surge during the day.

1. What caused this? anyone had similar experience?

How do you know the Back-Ups didn't protect at all? Even when the
backup fails, the surge protection still works.

I'd blame an inadequate heatsink causing device IC3 overheat and short.
Replacing IC3 and installing an aluminum heatsink will probably
prevent a repeat of this (steel heatsinks conduct heat terribly), but
don't attempt repair unless you know what you're doing since this
device works at high voltage, even when it's unplugged and running from
its internal battery. Don't let the heatsink touch the transformer
behind it. don't know what IC3 is, but IC12 looks like a # UC3526AD
pulse width modulator and may drive IC3 (judging by the fact both have
burn marks around them). Replace any capacitors connected to these
devices since they're often the cause of failure. This is not an
expensive repair if the labor is free (any electronics tech or real
computer tech can do it).

3. See the photos? The burning is pretty bad, it can actually cause fire.

Circuit boards are made of fire-resistant resin that don't burn much,
and while it's possible the plastic enclosure doesn't meet UL
flammability standard V-0, I doubt it.

 

[kony]

For home use, the maximum wattage that could be used by a device should
less than the maximum wattage output of any UPS.
If the UPS is rated in VA, then multiply it by a nice round 0.7 for the
absolute maximum wattage it can handle.
Then you really want some extra room for error and longer ups on
battery run time, so always allow some spare capacity.
Since most 400watt P4 power supplies do not use quite that much
current, as James Sweet noted, having a single computer on a 400-500VA
UPS is about right in most cases. If there is any question about the
power used by the computer, then size the UPS based on the maximum
wattage the computer could be pulling, 400/0.7 = 571, so a 600VA or
larger should be used on just the computer.

Generally one does not want to "size" an ups to a system
like this, the UPS rating is a maximum, not a target.

The typical low-end system might be fine on a 500VA UPS but
with consumer grade UPS, it's $ well spent to go for at
least 700VA or more, especially if one is trying to power a
monitor too. Like anything else, run at UPS at it's max and
it may not last so long.

 

[00_DotNetWarrior]

Thanks a lot for all the comments, I think I will get a better one. I went
to tigerdirect, they carry APC Smart-UPS 1500 VA and they also carry
Cyberpower CPS1500AVR (1500 VA) Is this Cyberpower any good? It said it's
design for running server, it's like 30% less expensive than Smart-UPS...
any idea?

Thanks

Alex.

 

[Paul]

Thanks a lot for all the comments, I think I will get a better one. I went
to tigerdirect, they carry APC Smart-UPS 1500 VA and they also carry
Cyberpower CPS1500AVR (1500 VA) Is this Cyberpower any good? It said it's
design for running server, it's like 30% less expensive than Smart-UPS...
any idea?

Thanks

Alex.

CyberPower CPS1500AVR 1500VA 950W 6 Outlets UPS - Retail $210
http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustratingReview.asp?item=N82E16842102006

"Just make sure it's in a well ventilated spot cause this thing gets HOT"
I hope the author of that comment is referring to operation on batteries...

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/CPS1500AVR.asp

The specs are in the next doc. Transfer time 4msec (the ATX power supply
hold up time must be greater than the UPS transfer time, and the ATX
supply in your computer might be in the 16msec range or so. You can
look those up, but I don't see a problem here). Simulated sine wave output.
http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/downloads/CPS1500AVR-RM_Specs.pdf

APC SmartUPS / 1500VA / 980Watt / SUA1500RM2U RackMount UPS $590
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=708758&CatId=235

http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=165
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500RM2U

User manual.
http://sturgeon.apcc.com/techref.nsf/partnum/990-1194/$FILE/990-1194_REV02_eng.pdf

Specs (rack mount page). Transfer time 2msec plus detect time.
I cannot find a statement about the quality of the sine wave output
in terms of words like "simulated" or "true" sinewave. I expect
either is good enough for computers.
http://apcmedia.apcc.com/pdf_downloads/litpdfs/996-1060i.pdf

There simply is not enough info to make a clear decision. Perhaps
seeing a picture of what is inside would help. I couldn't find
any useful images via images.google.com or
www.altavista.com/image/default

One of the comments on Newegg was "Do not ship via UPS - product
arrives destroyed" or the like. Perhaps part of the decision will
be where you can get the thing, that adequate packaging and a good
shipper will be used. This is one of the reasons that I didn't get
mine over the Internet. (Too bad they don't ship the chassis and the
battery or batteries separately.)

I think I know which one I would buy, but I don't think you want
any irrational input And based on the criterion of unit weight,
they are both heavy, so that trick won't help in this case. (ATX
power supplies for computers, for example, have a correlation between
unit weight and quality.)

Another comment, and something I didn't ask in the first thread.
You know you aren't supposed to connect inductive loads to this
thing. Large motors (a bar fridge's compressor) are a no-no.
Try to stick with computer components. The arcing and sparking
of an inductive load could lead to premature failure of something
inside the UPS, like when it is on battery.

Paul

 

[hdrdtd]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

When it comes to Servers in a corporate enviornment, I get very very
conservative. serves are meant to run 24/7/365 (excluding scheduled downtime
for maintenance).
You typically have a number (large or small) of users that are expecting
that server to always be up.
when considering equipment for servers whether it be a UPS, or tape backup,
or drives, etc..... This is one place where you don't want to pinch pennies.
In the long run it doesn't pay off.

as far as the UPS issue at hand, whether to go with a brand name that's well
know and that has been around for a long time such as APC, or another brand
such as Cyberpower which I myself have never heard of (doesn't mean they're
not a good product), I'd go for the brand name in a heart-beat, even if it
costs a bit more. after all, if it ever does fail, and the server is down,
how many min of lost productivity does it take to pay for the amount of
money you saved when you chose the UPS.?

BTW, It just so happens that probably 90% of the UPS's we use at work are
APC. we've been using them for at least the last 16 years I've been here,
and overall, they've served us well.

A few things to remember as others have pointed out already.

The batteries will not last forever. test them periodacally. I've lost count
how many UPS's I've run across sitting next to someones desk that had red
alarm lights lit indicated a battery failure. when I stop and ask the user
if they knew the red light was on, they would just say, 'yep. been lit for a
long time now'

We now have a regular maintenance shedule now where we have a few spares and
on a regular basis, we'll take a UPS out of service, replacing it with a
spare then our electronics department will perform a complete checkout of
the UPS replacing batteries where needed.

UPS's are not meant to power you PC for any signifigant period of time. They
are designed (when sized properly) to be able to supply enough power to run
your system long enough for you to perform a controlled shut-down of the
system. That's all. Typicaly we'll size a UPS to be able to handle the load
of the system for roughly 20 min. If you want something to power your PC for
a longer period of time, then you need to look at battery-backup systems.

The higher rated/priced UPS's will also normally have a serial port on the
UPS that can be connected to your server. using the software that came with
the UPS and the serial cable, the UPS can automatically signal the server
that it has lost AC power and to automatically signal the server to shut
down gracefully.

Using that same serial port and software, it will normally allow you to
monitor the condition of the UPS and it's batteries. For the UPS's that we
use on systems that don't contain a PC, we install the UPS software on a
laptoptop. we then use the laptop and a serial cable to go around to all
those UPS's on a regular basis to check the condition of the UPS, the
condition of the batteries, etc.

Also, most UPS manufacture's will have a wizard somewhere on thier web site
that you can use to input what kind of equipment you want to hook up to the
UPS and how long you want to be able to power the equipment, and it will
tell you which model and size is best suited for your needs.

Thanks a lot for all the comments, I think I will get a better one. I
went to tigerdirect, they carry APC Smart-UPS 1500 VA and they also carry
Cyberpower CPS1500AVR (1500 VA) Is this Cyberpower any good? It said it's
design for running server, it's like 30% less expensive than Smart-UPS...
any idea?

Thanks

Alex.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Thanks a lot for all the comments, I think I will get a better one. I went
to tigerdirect, they carry APC Smart-UPS 1500 VA and they also carry
Cyberpower CPS1500AVR (1500 VA) Is this Cyberpower any good? It said it's
design for running server, it's like 30% less expensive than Smart-UPS...
any idea?

I prefer APC.